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Thread: Seat restraints .....again

  1. #1

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    Seat restraints .....again

    I want 5 point restraints with inertial reel shoulder straps and the cam lock (rotary) buckle for my experimental cub build. Iím having a tough time finding anything. Iíve done a search on this site and an internet search. CC sells them but not with the cam lock buckle. Crow doesnít do inertial reel and says their material is too thick to go into an inertial reel. AmSafe has not responded to numerous inquiries and the phone tree is a dead end. Iíve looked at racing restraint web sites and found interesting restraints but no information on dimensions (belt lengths). Iíve looked at eBay for Pacific Scientific but most listings are for very well worn items that Iím not willing to take a chance on.

    Iím trying to finish off the fuselage and need to have inertial reel dimensions and bolt patterns so I can weld in proper mounting brackets.

    Would any of you have a suggested source?

    Thanks for any info you can pass on.

    Mr. Ed

  2. #2

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    Try Summit Racing Equipment
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  3. #3
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Race cars don't use inertial reel restraints as far as I know. Too much slop/give/slack.

    Helicopters harness's on the other hand seem to be the closest that use an inertia reel as I recall, and Schroth makes some for them.
    https://www.schroth.com/en/segments/...otorcraft.html
    Both the 1-09 with the locking reel and the 1-07 may be options.

    pb

    Edit - Schroth also has an configurator to build to suit for your setup, but you'd have to call them about incorporating a reel into it.
    Aviation Restraint Configurator

  4. #4

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    Schroth are really nice harnesses, had them in a off road vehicle back in the day, but they are $, you also get what you pay for.

    I was pointing towards Summit as a starting point for manfactures , then search from there.

  5. #5
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    If you dig deep enough you'll find some companies have gone to lengths to offer systems of value.

    Two cool things I think that Schroth offers, probably for the offshore drilling market, is these :

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  6. #6
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    If you go back to my soapbox moment thread about restraints, you'll find info on https://www.safecraftracing.com which is arguably the best harness in automotive racing. Custom built to your lengths/specs. And he comes from an aviation family. But as Kahles said, it will cost you. And, no inertia restraints.

    pb

  7. #7

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    Tried Summit Racing. They had one harness that fit the bill except the webbing was too short. Safe craft Racing, as mentioned had no inertial reel option.

    Schroth looks like what I’m interested in. I filled out the sheet for a quote and hope they are a bit more responsive than others. Maybe everybody is hunkered down in self isolation.

    Thanks for the help folks!

  8. #8
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Please share what information they provide, assuming they get back to you.

    Thanks,
    pb

  9. #9
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    The company I bought my stuff from is/was Aviation Safety Products. Blairsville Ga.

    I bought just the parts then sewed my own. They were very reluctant to sell just parts Vs a completed set up. It took a LOT of groveling. They were massively expensive but your belts are really important both from safety and comfort standpoints. You will wear them every time and the whole time you fly the airplane. It makes a HUGE difference in how you feel about the "experience" of flying your cub. Good belts are worth the money.

    Good luck and hope this helps

    Bill
    Very Blessed.
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  10. #10
    cruiser's Avatar
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    Hooker makes what your searching for
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  11. #11
    Colorguns's Avatar
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    Simpson makes a TSO 5 point cam lock harness. Talked to my FSDO ands they said I had to have a DER give written installing instructions to install in a cert plane. Would not do a FA otherwise.

    Doug

  12. #12
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Doug, thatís whacked. And people wonder why Experimental is the new standard.

    Personally Iíd rather live than wait for it to be legally approved by someone covering their ass.


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
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  13. #13
    cruiser's Avatar
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    https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/...lderpolicy.pdf

    Minor alteration. Especially if it is TSO’d.

  14. #14
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    I've been using used Pacific Scientific belts with and without reels for the last 20 years. Put them in everything I fly. Even borrowed aircraft. I have bought 15 or 20 over the years at flymarts or on eBay.
    This is a good buy if you don't want reels, 4 available

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/163924541541

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  15. #15

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    Simpson doesn’t offer inertial reels from what I can see on the website.

    Hooker doesn’t show inertial reels either but if you download the price sheet it has them as an option for $175 each. The issue is that the price sheet is from 2012. I sent an inquiry and will report if they respond.

  16. #16
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Ed View Post

    Hooker doesn’t show inertial reels either but if you download the price sheet it has them as an option for $175 each. The issue is that the price sheet is from 2012. I sent an inquiry and will report if they respond.
    Thanks, I was noticing that too.

    General question: I've read the policy letter etc., and I've read of Taylorcraft people wrapping a Y restraint belt end around a carry through tube and attached to itself. I haven't seen anything like that in the examples, but is that a viable approach?

    I'm trying to find a solution for that Commonwealth Skyranger 185 I discussed last fall. It sort of fell into my lap recently.
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  17. #17

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    Some photos of race cars I’ve seen have the shoulder strap wrapped around the roll cage.

    Schroth shows shoulder strap upper end options that have a sewn in loop and an end you can loop around a tube and run back through a fitting on the strap to secure it. One could deduce from those depictions that it would be an acceptable method of securing the strap in certain applications. That’s an uneducated guess.
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  18. #18
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorguns View Post
    Simpson makes a TSO 5 point cam lock harness. Talked to my FSDO ands they said I had to have a DER give written installing instructions to install in a cert plane. Would not do a FA otherwise.

    Doug
    Did they show you the FAR that lead them to that conclusion?

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  19. #19
    cruiser's Avatar
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    Hooker inertia reel
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  20. #20
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorguns View Post
    Simpson makes a TSO 5 point cam lock harness. Talked to my FSDO ands they said I had to have a DER give written installing instructions to install in a cert plane. Would not do a FA otherwise. Doug
    I think those FSDO guys need to read the FAA's own policy statement that Cruiser posted a link to.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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    Hooker responded. Prices are the same as the 2012 price sheet. No response from Schroth yet besides an auto response verifying my email to them.

    question: I was looking at attach points today and wondered what the potential drawbacks would be if I attached both sets of shoulder straps to the cross tube intended for the rear shoulder straps. The rear seat inertial real could be mounted below the headliner. The front seat inertial reels could be mounted above the headliner, routing the straps above the aft spar carry through and the cross tube they normally go over. It would get the front inertial reels back out of the way so as to not be a head banger for the rear seat passenger. The concern is that one tube is now tasked with restraining both occupants. Kind of a “Where we go one, we go all” proposition. Farmboy’s wreck photos show the carry through detached on both ends with a single occupant. That, however, may have been the result of the wing being ripped off impacting the tree which may have ripped one end of the carry through free and compromised the other end in the process. Anyway, good idea or bad?

  22. #22
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Would you have a pic of that cross tube? Dunno if you remember how mine is done - the rear seat straps are fastened to the long diagonal that Piper put behind the rear seat. When I wrecked - hit hard enough to tear the engine off - that long diagonal which supported the passenger bent slightly, not even close to failing. I don't remember sizes right now, but can check and give you a pic if you'd like. Also, I'll be headed past your place Monday, and could stop by if that would help any.
    Gordon

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  23. #23
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Seat restraints .....again

    Ed, I think Steve Pierce had posted a photo of how Legend or CubCrafters (?) does it, using a flat bar to tie two cross tubes together. Seemed like a good idea, perhaps that would help your build.


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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Photo on the left shows the cross tube I’m talking about where the rear seat shoulder straps will mount. That’s where I’m thinking about mounting the front straps too. The pink string shows routing up over the aft spar carry through and forward over the cross tube in the X brace. The right photo is a shot from the exterior.

    The tabs/nut plates hanging down from the spar carry through tube were for the headliner soffit to accommodate the flap cable for the overhead system. That hung down 1 3/16” which turned out to be too low, not enough head room. Those tabs will be removed, cable routing re-engineered and headliner adjusted.

    Mounting the inertial reels all in the back would make a cleaner looking installation. Another consideration is spring tension in the reels. With the added strap length, mounting the reels in the back and stringing them over an additional tube, would the reels have the ability to keep tension?

  25. #25
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    You don't want to attach something with the potential for a high load where it will pull sideways in the middle of a tube. It could bend and tear out the tube. If you do chose to mount them there you should consider something going straight back to that first cluster from the attachment location.
    N1PA
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  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    You don't want to attach something with the potential for a high load where it will pull sideways in the middle of a tube. It could bend and tear out the tube. If you do chose to mount them there you should consider something going straight back to that first cluster from the attachment location.
    IF I remember correctly, Cessna utilized a cable and
    inertial reels where the cable was attached to separate Inertial reels, one for front and one for back to keep the strap elongation to a minimum. The inertial reels were placed behind the passenger seat/ observer with the cable for the front seat run through a couple of pullies overhead and then down to the over the shoulder Y strap. this was in their Bird Dog that they sold to the army back in the 60's. I do not know it the purchased the reels or if they made them.

    Just a thought.

  27. #27

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    What’s a headliner?

  28. #28
    Todd long's Avatar
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    I have 5 point hooker harnesses in the front and rear. Smith cub so experimental. But they are nice.

  29. #29

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    Schroth responded after considerable delay. They have nothing in current inventory but would engineer something for me. Engineering “fees” would apply. Sounded like it would get very expensive.

    I decided to buy two AmSafe restraints off eBay. I’ll have to modify the shoulder strap length but I believe the rest should work as is.

  30. #30
    algonquin's Avatar
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    If you need anything made in belts bring you drawing and lengths and hardware to a Parachute Center. Then grab a licensed rigger and they can made them for you by mil spec.’s on material and sewing.

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    Update on the restraints dilemma.

    I found these on eBay. I was very suspicious but contacted the seller and took the plunge. This guy gets the restraints in bulk used and sends them back in to AmSafe for refurbishment. They come with all the repair station paperwork, new webbing and hardware. They look perfectly new and fit both seats with adequate adjustability. The dual inertial shoulder straps also have a manual locking lever on about 24” of cable. $250/seat. I thought that was a good price compared with all other options I was looking at.

    Where’s Waldo moment: Can you spot the Cabela’s logo in one of the photos?

    I used a carbon fiber arrow shaft that I had done a Robin Hood on and split nock end. There was enough good shaft to make the throttle lever interconnect rod. Scrappy’s got nothing on me!
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  32. #32

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    I love the Cabela's mod!! However that seat back will be a major pain for anyone getting in and out of the back when you fold it down. Do a search, lots of better ways to fold the seat back without causing problems. Sorry to add another 6 hours to the build.
    DENNY

  33. #33

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    The folding seat back has a latch to keep it from flopping forward and banging shins. It also has a recline adjustment which might not be usable with the back stick installed. I haven’t tried that yet.

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