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Thread: Zlin Savage Norden

  1. #1

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    Zlin Savage Norden

    Hey y’all, Zlin announced a new STOL aircraft today. The electric retractable fowler slats are too cool! I think it looks a bit like a mini Husky. Thoughts?

    https://www.facebook.com/20748807938...1059/?vh=e&d=n
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  2. #2

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    Looks like fun!

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    tell us more about the top cowl, why the flare. and that little circle on the boot cowl with the 4 screws.

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    the little circle is likely a static port, the cowl flare my guess is cosmetic or to stiffen the cowl

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    Looks like a nice plane, however I don't see too many STOL competitors looking for electric flaps.
    DENNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    Looks like a nice plane, however I don't see too many STOL competitors looking for electric flaps.
    DENNY
    Slats being electric. Think is what he said Denny. That way you can tuck Em in when ya don’t need em.
    Good idea actually.

  7. #7

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    The flare is for the injector rails on the 915 iS, similar to what Flight Design had to do when they went from the carbureted 912 to the 912 iS fuel injected engine. You can’t wrap as tightly around the engine without accounting for this.

    Yes, flaps are manual extension and retraction above the pilots left shoulder. You can see the flap handle in the photos if you look closely enough. The slats are electrically controlled by a switch on the stick.

  8. #8

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    My bad electric slats would be great!
    DENNY

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    How so?

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    You could suck them in and that should give you a less drag when you feel the need for speed.
    DENNY

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    They do that on their own. If you want to pin them tight that's pretty simple, too.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    They do that on their own. If you want to pin them tight that's pretty simple, too.
    These are fixed unless you retract them electrically via a toggle switch. The wing area goes from 156 sq.ft to 175 sq.fr when the slats and flaps are extended. More wing loading and less drag where you want it in cruise, and more wing and AOA where you need it during landing.

  13. #13
    courierguy's Avatar
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    No one mentioned the flaps? That's what caught my eye. Couldn't tell what type of shock struts on the gear it had. Looked like a T-3 tail spring (mine just arrived today, looks good), and haven't seen droop tips in a while?
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    They do that on their own. If you want to pin them tight that's pretty simple, too.
    Not entirely true. The type you run and the Handley-Page slats (like the Helio Courier runs) have large drag differences in cruise. Even though yours “retract” at cruise speeds, they still draw a flat-plate drag penalty.

    In low speed flight I think both types of slats perform similarly.

    Yours gain points for weight and simplicity. Handley-Page slats gain points for cruise drag reductions.

  15. #15

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    I'll defer to the experts. Controllable slats might be interesting in a crosswind where they could be kept in but with the pireps about the Highlander in the wind I'm not sire that's important. My wings are a handful in the wind. But I need more time to get used to them.
    Last edited by stewartb; 03-26-2020 at 06:49 AM.

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    Jetcat,

    Do you have specs? Cruise speed, landing speed? It looks like it's a slippery Cub that's trying to maintain some slow speed capability. I'm sure that appeals to some. Slippery isn't my priority but new ideas are always interesting. My initial thought is the nose is high. Most slat wing Cubs move the engine down to improve visibility. I look forward to videos of it flying.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Jetcat,

    Do you have specs? Cruise speed, landing speed? It looks like it's a slippery Cub that's trying to maintain some slow speed capability. I'm sure that appeals to some. Slippery isn't my priority but new ideas are always interesting. My initial thought is the nose is high. Most slat wing Cubs move the engine down to improve visibility. I look forward to videos of it flying.
    I believe they are still waiting for its first test flight as Corona has put a wrench in that. The flaps are double slotted semi-Fowler like the Outback Shock has. This wing has less chord than the Shock but yes, more slippery in cruise while maintaining great STOL performance as it is quite light and will have similar wing area to a Carbon Cub when the slats and flaps are fully extended at 174.7 sq.ft.

    Here is some more information. Length at 23’, wingspan of 29’ 7”, and basic empty weight of 793 pounds. Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by jetcat11; 03-27-2020 at 03:11 PM. Reason: Punctuation

  18. #18
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    Interesting that it still has dual lift struts, even though the wing is all metal. As compared to the Bearhawk LSA, RANS 21, and others, once they go metal, most seem to only need 1 strut as the tin skin gives it torsional rigidity, or so I've heard ....793 pounds isn't particularly light for this class of plane, and I bet that's with the 912S, not with the 915i? Fabric still seems to be the lightest wing covering, all things considered. The slats and tin skin probably added 20+ pounds. Those flaps.....I was almost getting sexually aroused watching the video of them deploying, very sexy! Cool plane.

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    300 horse Edge Performance engine available. That should be interesting!
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    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post
    No one mentioned the flaps? That's what caught my eye. Couldn't tell what type of shock struts on the gear it had. Looked like a T-3 tail spring (mine just arrived today, looks good), and haven't seen droop tips in a while?
    I made an error and thought these flaps were the same as the Shock Cub. They are actually 3-hanger Performance Flaps on the Norden which I’ve read are about the best modification you can make to a stock Super Cub. That combined with the Fowler type slats should make for a wonderful combination of slower airspeed at a reduced AOA required for off airport fun.

    There is only one place where the slats are going to make a significant difference and the designer of the aircraft has assured me they have achieved that position. If the electric actuator failed for any reason there will always be a symmetrical situation for both wings even close to the ground. I’d say there’s good reason why airliners use electric slats and I’m really excited to see how they perform now that they are mounted like a mini CRJ 700’s.

    The drooped wingtips are there to effectively increase the local span loading near the tips which should increase the effectiveness of the ailerons at slower speeds. They’ve also been shown to modify the departure stall characteristics to maintain flow near the tips longer as the stall progresses.

    The nose has been lowered along with the dashboard to provide enhanced visibility for this reason. Just look at how far the front windscreen extends. The nose high attitude is to maximize the AOA for takeoff and landing. I’m personally excited about this as it will make for an impressive STOL competitor as the Shock Cub’s tailwheel gave up significant AOA on takeoffs

    The shock struts are made by a company in Germany and yes, a T3 tailwheel suspension. The empty weight isn’t bad at all when you consider this has an all metal wing with double aeronautical spars, electric slats, performance flaps along with a stout undercarriage and design good for 1765 pounds. And yes, I’m also assuming that includes the Rotax 912 ULS in that basic empty weight.
    Thanks courierguy, Jonnyo thanked for this post

  21. #21
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    Zlin Savage Norden

    No such thing as a Fowler slat, and the flaps appear to be double slotted non Fowler’s. Still, they’re tremendous leading and trailing edge devices.

    Flaps increase the wing’s AoA (effective chord line in relation to the relative wind), while slats energize the air moving over the wing to help prevent stall at higher wing AoA. The deck angle of the airplane isn’t in lock-step with wing AoA: when you start deploying flaps the wing AoA increases with no change to aircraft deck angle. We pitch the nose back down to maintain the approximate wing AoA.

    Looks like a fun plane!
    Last edited by CamTom12; 03-28-2020 at 10:45 PM.
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    Click image for larger version. 

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  23. #23
    courierguy's Avatar
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    I like the faired shock struts, and it looks like the cabane is even faired. I did the same on my own Cub style gear, I also faired the TE of the aft gear leg though, rather then leave it round. A minor detail, but less drag is always welcome, especially when it's easy to attain.

    The wing looks real clean with the slats sucked in. Clean as a "normal" wing.
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  24. #24

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    The top view of the wing looks pretty standard for slats. The cowl still stands out as different than the slat wing Cubs I know. The top of the cowl should be parallel to the ground no higher than the windscreen base in 3-point. Otherwise there will be a visibility obstruction.

    I do recognize a remarkable similarity in the wishbone tube design to that in my Cub. Not that it's a problem. The design is attractive. I've wondered about the merit of arced tubes compared to the original Cub's straight tubes.

  25. #25

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    It has flown! “The Savage Norden has been successfully tested. We have to thank some our workers that despite to corona virus problems and limits, accepted to help our company, dismounting the plane and moving “ themselves" to a very special airport :Sazená, North of Prague (330 km from our base). Our Czech dealers and their mechanic were involved too and were absolutely helpful. Tks for that, guys.Not less than 3 flying hours and 20 take off and landings have been done during the last two days..We tested the slat system but not more than the second notch of flaps for the moment. The retractable slats are really effective and deliver to the plane during the approach, even with turbulence, a rock solid attitude. You really feel them working, have been reported by the test pilot Mr. Jirí Duras (tks for your nice and professional job Jirí, thumbs up). The double slotted flaps, even if not completely extended, were really effective and worked perfectly in combination with the slats (we can’t wait to test their full potential).
    Prudentially we tested the speeds only from 50 km/h (31 mph) up to 193 km/h (120 mph) with the optional 29” Alaskan bushwheels installed, but there is for sure more to be discovered and investigated in both slow and fast speed range. Climb speed also was reported as “absolutely" remarkable. All the teams involved, were very happy with the results. We can’t wait to move further to get the best from this new plane and its fascinating aerodynamic and tests couldn't have been more promising .. We can’t share anything more at the moment sorry, so we will not deliver further details at this stage. We just wanted to share some infos, with all the people waiting for this kind of event. More tests coming soon.”

    Here is the YouTube link for those who might have missed the introduction video. https://youtu.be/p-9-lDetmuo

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  26. #26

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    Pricing announced.
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    What a handsome, I envy kindly.
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  30. #30
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    Short take off even with a tailwind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiskeyMike View Post
    Short take off even with a tailwind.
    Haha sarcasm? They still aren't pushing the envelope and only used the first notch of flaps here. When they install an EPeX400Ti later this year it'll be a rocket ship!

  32. #32
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    Nice tufted wing video (and flaps). Too bad speeds aren’t shown.


    https://www.instagram.com/p/CBBTD9EB...d=biftgm6o40p3


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
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    [QUOTE=Farmboy;775716]Nice tufted wing video (and flaps). Too bad speeds aren’t shown.


    https://www.instagram.com/p/CBBTD9EB...d=biftgm6o40p3

    Those are the latest frise ailerons they were testing as well. Roll rate looks great. I’ve never seen such smooth airflow over the entire length of the wing at such a high AOA.

    In their latest video the Czech pilot said he was flying at 15 mph that day. I’m sure that’s where they are at in that slow flight portion.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetcat11 View Post
    ...In their latest video the Czech pilot said he was flying at 15 mph that day. I’m sure that’s where they are at in that slow flight portion.
    I wonder what type of instrumentation they are using to determine that speed? 15 mph is not very much.
    N1PA

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I wonder what type of instrumentation they are using to determine that speed? 15 mph is not very much.
    I’m not exactly sure what was used for that test flight but they like to use GPS ground speed on the calmest days they can find. Check out at 3:10 with the last model. https://youtu.be/4v8A9RVmLHk

  36. #36
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    Look at the windsock at 2:55.
    N1PA

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Look at the windsock at 2:55.
    You’re right, there’s probably 6-8 knots of wind there. At Valdez last year if I remember correctly the winds were about 3-5 knots. Look at 3:14:48. https://youtu.be/vZ6ABfdiiP0 That was the shortest landing at the show with a stock airplane which is cool.

    At 3:55 this Shock Ultra is definitely flying under 20 mph with zero wind. https://www.facebook.com/ZlinAviatio...173683524/?d=n

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    Here is that video a little bit larger. I found it interesting that the front cowl has been removed for this particular test. This is almost at the forward CG location with the latest frise ailerons that will be used during production going forward. They are now ready to produce the first batch of Norden wings.

    https://www.facebook.com/20748807938...5665/?vh=e&d=n

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    Here’s an update from Zlin today.

    “800 lbs (363 kg) Savage Norden with Rotax 915?”

    “As we anticipated last February, the prototype has been reworked, to get this empty weight. And we did it.
    The target was to offer to the market a lighter version of our plane to improve the STOL performances and with these main characteristics: full metal wing, retractable slats, double slotted flaps, carbon wing tips, 140 lt fuel tanks, "Rotax 915”, carbon cowling and 4 blade propeller, extended landing gear, 22” tires (in these pics we show the 29” ), soft baggage, carbon seats covered with Alcantara, carbon floorboards.
    To get these results, we worked on every single detail, using as much as possible, carbon parts and also covering the fuselage with Oratex 6000. In the meantime, and with performances in mind, we have even asked to one our supplier, the propeller manufacturer Propellers E-Props, to build a larger propeller to explore better the STOL performances.
    As you can see, we tried to design even a new paint scheme. The Oratex in black, is really nice, but we didn’t want to have and offer a total black plane. We tried to make something different, keeping in mind the final weight increase and painting the plane as less as possible…”

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by jetcat11; 05-02-2021 at 05:11 PM.
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    What did it weigh before the rework?

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