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Thread: Zlin Savage Norden

  1. #81

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  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetcat11 View Post
    The SQ-18 DOES NOT have slats, it has slots! The Shock Cub? Slots! The Norden is the first GA aircraft to feature electric retractable slats. That is called innovation. Don’t have a clue where you got that Carbon Concepts “slots” were “electric slats.”

    ???? Pretty sure both the SQ and the Shock Cub do, indeed, have slats....
    I don't understand why you feel the need to defend the Norden so strongly. Just let its performance speak for itself. I think its a cool plane, and I'm sure it's a blast to fly. Time will tell if it fills a niche, or if it just the flavor of the week.
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  3. #83

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  4. #84
    stewartb's Avatar
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    Slots are fixed. Slats are variable. My Cub has slats. They operate with air pressure. Open when needed, closed when not. They’re incredible. Flying a 2000# plane with full control authority at <30 mph is pretty fun.

    What are the specs for wing loading and power loading for the Norden? What’s it’s gross weight? Useful load? I’d be interested in how those numbers compare to Supercubs, Carbon Cubs, and Backcountry Cubs.
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  5. #85

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  6. #86
    stewartb's Avatar
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    I glanced at Zlin’s website. Lots of marketing-based talk and nothing technical. Wingspan? Wing area? Absent. They clearly state it’s built for the LSA market. That puts it into a very limited market as most pilots aren’t interested in that segment. They say they’ll test it with a 300hp Edge motor next year. So it’ll compete directly with planes like the Highlander. There’s plane that demonstrates fabulous performance. I look forward to seeing how the Norden stacks up against a known entity. But at the end of the day it’s mild curiosity. That segment doesn’t offer enough useful load for me to consider owning one, and I suspect that statement applies to many guys on this website.
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  7. #87

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  8. #88
    stewartb's Avatar
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    I made a post a couple of years ago with wing and power loading. For comparison-

    I ran lots of PL and WL numbers when I was deciding what plane to build and why. These are derived from manufacturer's specs. The only honest empty weight report is by BCSC.

    Just SS XL wing loading empty- 6.8
    gross- 11.75
    power loading empty- 5.0
    gross- 8.16


    Carbon Cub FX3 WL empty- 5.23
    gross- 10.84
    power loading empty- 4.83
    gross- 10.02

    BCSC Rev 2 WL Empty- 6.47
    gross- 10.7
    power loading empty- 6.17
    gross- 10.2

    Stock Supercub 1100#/1750# @150hp
    WL empty- 6.16
    gross- 9.8
    PL empty- 7.66
    gross- 11.66

    For grins, how does my own 180 stack up?
    WL- 10.34 empty
    18.33 gross
    PL 6.54 empty
    11.6 gross.
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  9. #89
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetcat11 View Post
    I defend innovation and get frustrated when it falls on deaf ears. Mark my words you’ll see this wing planform copied many times in the future.
    It already has been copied...by the Norden. SQ's did it a long time ago, Just Aircraft Super STOL after that, the Helio very long ago....

    The only "innovation" is that the slats are electrically controlled. Not to get into it again but that's not exactly ground breaking from an aerodynamic standpoint. Whether the slats are automatic, electric, spring loaded, always deployed...they all do the same thing. The deployable slats might cruise faster when they're not deployed but that's the only slight advantage. Carbon Concepts made and tested electric deployable slats along with an electric servo operated double slotted flap several years ago. There's a backstory there involving Zlin but I'll leave that alone.

    I'd also like to point out that you've been excited about this plane since before you ever stepped foot in one. I doubt that no matter how it flew or looked or what features you would have been impressed with it. How many hours do you have in a Norden now to evaluate it and what other planes have you flow to compare it to?

    Quote Originally Posted by frequent_flyer View Post
    I think that's exactly what I thought of the J3 when I first flew one.
    You're not wrong. The J3 is a toy as well. I'm not knocking this thing points for being a fun to fly toy. Just don't show me the little PA-11 size bag in the back of the Norden and tell me it's for more than cruising around the patch and playing on sand bars. The dash looks like a SeaDoo jet ski and it's probably just as fun and just as useful.
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  10. #90

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  11. #91
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    Hey let’s talk about Bearhawks. ��

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetcat11 View Post
    Ok Crash you win. I don’t care anymore.
    Finally, a breakthrough!
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  13. #93

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  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetcat11 View Post
    It’s called enthusiasm! SuperCub.org? Buzzkill. I post 10 times a year on here give me a break.
    Sorry to harsh your vibe man. I'm not saying it's a bad plane just don't keep trying to sell the idea that another cub with slats and double slotted flaps is a revolutionary new thing.

    Honestly looks like a really fun plane to fly. It's all the best things about a light cub combined with a great engine and the latest mods. The dash reminds me of Lil Cub which just has a couple gauges clamped to the fuselage tubes. Not the best for stashing your sunglasses but it tickles my fetish for super minimalist designs.

    Bearhawks? Oof that's a fun discussion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearhawk Builder View Post
    Hey let’s talk about Bearhawks. 😏
    Ouch- that brought it into perspective- come to think of it, this Norden looks way better than I first thought!
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  16. #96
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    Perhaps I will squat on zlinsavagenorden.org, .com and .net. it might pay off someday.

    Seriously, it looks like a kick in the pants to fly and will fit someone's mission. That mission will be quite similar to SuperSTOL, Hilander and Shock.

    I'd just about put money down that nobody here is offended by the plane. It's the way jetcatt is coming across as a fellow who has a stake in Norden's success that gets the hackles up.
    "Always looking up"
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  17. #97

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    Nobody is offended in the slightest- just don’t expect people who’ve lived and breathed the last 20 years of STOL evolution to lose their minds thinking it’s completely going to change the world...
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  18. #98
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    The thing that strikes me is the wingspan is nearly 10’ less than mine. Earlier I referred to the Norden as a scale model. I think that’s a fair statement.
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  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash, Jr. View Post
    Sorry to harsh your vibe man. I'm not saying it's a bad plane just don't keep trying to sell the idea that another cub with slats and double slotted flaps is a revolutionary new thing.

    Honestly looks like a really fun plane to fly. It's all the best things about a light cub combined with a great engine and the latest mods. The dash reminds me of Lil Cub which just has a couple gauges clamped to the fuselage tubes. Not the best for stashing your sunglasses but it tickles my fetish for super minimalist designs.

    Bearhawks? Oof that's a fun discussion
    My take on the odd panel, is that max over the nose (and sides) of the cowl viz was the objective, not just a fashion statement.
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  20. #100

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  21. #101
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    I have no dog in this discussion, but I do correspond a lot with Jetcat11. He has zero financial stake in Zlin/Norden, what he does have is a great enthusiasm for the innovation going on. They have taken ideas from other aircraft and taken them to a new level. As stated, no other aircraft has all of these features and certainly not the features tuned to this degree. I do have a friend/neighbor who is soon to take delivery of a Norden, so I should get to see it pretty soon. He is also an owner of an X-Cub, but I will say he is super excited about the Norden and what he will be able to do with it.

    I think it is unfair to compare the Norden to a ShockCub, Highlander or anything else. The Norden is in a different category. That being said, I have flown LSA for the past year and the weight limitations for two people my size (195#), fuel and fishing gear for a day trip are VERY tight. NO way I could have made a trip fishing for 3-4 days and stayed under 1320 when I was flying 3 hours to Idaho. A LSA is a one person plane with gear for more than a day, a two person plane for messing around in the backcountry for a day. The weight limitations are just too restrictive. That being said, lots of people love sports cars, tons are sold, but they are not going to take the family on vacation.

    The Norden is not a Super Cub as it can’t carry the weight, it is not a Carbon Cub as it is much faster, it is not a J-3 either.

    When I was looking at planes to either build or buy (primarily build to be honest), I just could not really justify an LSA as my wife (145#) likes to fly with me and her two requests for the plane were 1) be able to get skis in 2) be able to get golf clubs in. My buddy who owns the plane I was flying prior to my build would only take a half of set of clubs in his S-21 if he was taking them on a trip. So NO LSA for me.

    As stated above, I am looking forward to seeing a Norden in person soon.
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  22. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetcat11 View Post
    Crash electric actuation is superior, just watch a Helio takeoff on YouTube with the slat panels extending and retracting at seemingly random intervals.

    I sure wouldn’t want some of the slat panels slamming in or out in the CRJ 700!

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    Do you understand why there are two slats on each wing on the Helio and why they seem to move in random situations? There are two on each wing because the airflow angle of attack over the wing is different in the propwash region than outboard of the propwash. They move randomly because they follow the angle of attack in their respective wing sections. When the air is other than smooth and the plane is in other than straight stable conditions the angle of attack varies over different sections of the wing. The slats are directly controlled and optimized by their respective airflow angle of attack.

    If the slats randomly slammed in and out on your CRJ, it is doubtful you in the cockpit would even be aware of it.

    Otto Koppen and Lynn Bollinger knew what they were doing when they designed the Helio in the late 1940s. The original was a modified Piper Vagabond built by a man I used to work for. I also knew the original test pilot, Jack Phillips.

    You may find this interesting. Read the article starting on page 106:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=giQDAAAAMBAJ&pg=RA0-PA109&dq=popular+science+1949++"Aeronca"&hl=en&ei= FPXcTL3cMtGNnQfn7owX&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result &resnum=2&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=true

    I wonder where the Lanier Paraplane is now? I saw it once at the Flying W airport in New Jersey.
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  23. #103
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    But really someone here is thinking that the new Zlin Norden was designed taking in mind the specific and local (sorry) Alaskan needs? or if you prefer, the needs of many of you flying professionally in Alaska? your planes are simply better for your specific needs, sure, but I have to disappoint you since I personally think that the market for an LSA plane of this category is 100 times bigger around the world compared to your specific Alaskan "bush plane" market... Just an example? try to sell a Bearhawk, a Carbon Cub, a stock Super Cub, a Backcountry Rev 2, a Super Stol XL, or any similar plane including a Legend Cub or even all the "CUB clones" you buy there, in Europe (and not only in Europe) and try to fit into their empty or max weight limits if you are capable (I refer to the LSA or local Ultralight markets) . No chance. Do you know how many tens and tens of thousand of LSA are registered just in Germany, Czech, France, Spain and Italy? and how many are in the whole Europe (total of 29 Countries) ? and do you think we have not a need of a STOL plane here for example? look at the Alps, at the Dolomites, look at the north of Europe...look at the tons of beaches and rivers we have too...Nothing is missing here for a recreational STOL plane and the Zlin Norden fits those rules and those needs...And apart Europe, of course the world is even more demanding.
    There is always a center of the Universe. It all depends from where we observe it...
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  24. #104
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    OK, so is my definition of a slot being fixed and a slat being movable wrong?

    People bashed the Carbon Cub when it came out and a lot still do. Cub Crafters also learned some valuable, expensive lessons on weight vs structural integrity/longevity.

    the Norden looks like a neat airplane and I would love to fly it. What else do you fly that you are comparing it to.

    If you spend enough time here it is kinda like real life, some people like to talk a lot and say nothing, some people are always happy, some always negative, some are alright most of the time, some some of the time and some you take what they say to the bank. You have been posting about these airplanes on the Super Cub website for years. It reminds me of my Dad asking me what the definition of insanity was one time when I was bitching about something. Insanity is to continue to do the same thing and expect a different result.

    I have spent the last two weekends building a hangar with two guys that can do most anything and I am dam sure out of my area of expertise. The ribbing has been none stop but learned a lot, had fun and I almost have a new hangar. Just couldn't be thinned skinned.
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  25. #105
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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  26. #106
    Selvaoscura's Avatar
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    Insanity is to continue to do the same thing and expect a different result.
    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    [/QUOTE]


    I can't agree more with you....
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  27. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    If you spend enough time here it is kinda like real life, some people like to talk a lot and say nothing, some people are always happy, some always negative, some are alright most of the time, some some of the time and some you take what they say to the bank. You have been posting about these airplanes on the Super Cub website for years. It reminds me of my Dad asking me what the definition of insanity was one time when I was bitching about something. Insanity is to continue to do the same thing and expect a different result.
    Wow Steve, very philosophical this morning. Maybe it is from working on the hangar so much but you sure hit the nail on the head (well that probably just has screws). Maybe SJ should put that quote on the web site masthead.
    Gerald
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  28. #108
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    I think many pilot/owners on here view people posting about the latest greatest the same as those coming to the front door with a sales pitch.
    We typically aren’t a pharma rep buying a Cirrus, or a doctor buying a Bonzana, to be way too stereotypical.
    But bring a plane to the fly in, or someplace we see it, and offer up the keys, hell yes we will try it out.
    I, at least, am a “show me” how it works kind of guy. That way I can come to my own conclusions.

    Each aircraft fits its own mission. And there’s an a$$ for every seat. Same as cars/trucks/boats….


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
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  29. #109
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    You know what would be frigging great? If Randy Schlitter, founder and still head honcho at RANS (35 years I believe, only VANS can match that record I think, and Dick retired, not Randy) MADE A DRECT COPY of the Norden, and promoted it widely as their own design. Payback can be a bitch. I'd be first in line if that happened, being a LSA type of riff raff as I am. I don't care all that much about the slats, it's the flaps I like most. I'd love to see the Zlin company complain about that, that would be righteous payback. Unfortunately, RANS is swamped with S-21 orders and Randy is not all that much into max STOL designs.
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  30. #110

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  31. #111
    Selvaoscura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by courierguy View Post
    You know what would be frigging great? If Randy Schlitter, founder and still head honcho at RANS (35 years I believe, only VANS can match that record I think, and Dick retired, not Randy) MADE A DRECT COPY of the Norden, and promoted it widely as their own design. Payback can be a bitch. I'd be first in line if that happened, being a LSA type of riff raff as I am. I don't care all that much about the slats, it's the flaps I like most. I'd love to see the Zlin company complain about that, that would be righteous payback. Unfortunately, RANS is swamped with S-21 orders and Randy is not all that much into max STOL designs.
    All Zlin customers including myself, know already the story, since Zlin's owner candidly declared in 1999, in your famous magazine "Kitplanes" (they made a cover to the Savage Classic) that he started from the Rans S/7 making a plane just for himself few years before, but trying to make something more solid, efficient and more reminding him the Piper Super Cub. Then some potential customers arrived and he decided to start to make the first 5 for them. And he never stopped from that moment it seems. But to compare a prehistoric S/7 or Savage Classic or even Cub to a Norden means to have never seen and flown one. You could be very surprised. There will be the copy of the Norden soon or later and why not finally made by Randy S. and you will finally get your coveted revenge...

  32. #112
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    The Helio slats move as the angle of attack dictates. Your CRJ slats move when you choose to move them which is likely not at the precise instant when the angle of attack calls for it. Thus you do feel when they move. This is true on most all big planes with these systems.
    N1PA
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  33. #113
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    The entire history of aviation is borrowing ideas from others and taking that design a bit further. Every thing is influenced by someone/something.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  34. #114
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    I like LSA. I like tailwheel airplanes. I have no "need" for backcountry performance, but I thoroughly enjoy challenging myself to takeoff and land as short as practical at the airports (including grass) that I fly into. I'd love to own a Carbon Cub, but the reality is that their price point is WAY beyond my budget. The Norden intrigues me, largely because it scratches all my itches, at a claimed (*) price point that is perhaps attainable for me. The "*" above is that I have as yet not seen an actual price – in the US – for that kit.

    Like CourierGuy, I really like the 912ULS engine. I understand it, and how to get decent performance and longevity out of it. I read all the RotaxOwner.com reports of issues they are having with the fuel injected and electronic ignition Rotax models. I have no idea of their "relative reliability" versus the carbureted models, because the whole point of the forum is to get help when you're having problems, but much of the diagnosis and repair of those engines is clearly beyond my abilities.

    Thus I suspect that even if I were to decide to purchase a Norden kit at some point, I would probably go with the simpler, easier to maintain normally aspirated, carbureted engine, and add some takeoff roll distance, give up a some climb performance, and (probably) suffer with slower cruise speed. But I'd save a ton of money on initial purchase cost, and on ongoing maintenance costs.
    Jim Parker
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  35. #115
    courierguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    The entire history of aviation is borrowing ideas from others and taking that design a bit further. Every thing is influenced by someone/something.
    Knowing that is a truism in aviation (going way back to Chanute and Lilienthal, and of course Wright and Curtis), when 99% of the parts are interchangeable, a design goes from being "inspired" to being a ripoff. Pasquale ripped RANS off, and then to his credit has gone forward with many minor changes to the basic design and not looked back, and I will be the first to admit if the Norden was being offered stateside, by another company, I'd be very interested. Heck, I bought a Kitfox in '88, right after Dan Denny "borrowed"/ was inspired by, Dean Wilson's Avid Flyer design, and made some cosmetic changes, so maybe I should shut the heck up, but I didn't know any better.
    Last edited by courierguy; 12-07-2021 at 04:33 PM.

  36. #116

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    This thread cracks me up. The exact same thread is happening over at backcountrypilot.org with all the same ppl.
    the signal to noise ratio isn’t very high.
    I’ll now crawl back under my rock��

  37. #117
    Selvaoscura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super11XP View Post
    This thread cracks me up. The exact same thread is happening over at backcountrypilot.org with all the same ppl.
    the signal to noise ratio isn’t very high.
    I’ll now crawl back under my rock��
    yes always the same story...: someone speaking so bad (all the time the same attitude, by several years as when it happens to have a personal problem or issue with someone) about Zlin and the owner and someone else in the other side, showing too much enthusiasm (so for many here, quite annoying ) , considering that we are speaking into a Super Cub dedicated Forum...
    Probably the virtue lies more in the middle?
    For those that will be interested, there will be soon on this page, a first serious external independent test of the Norden, done by a professional test pilot with an huge experience as a development test pilot (ex military pilot now developing the MB346 and 345). Could be out tomorrow : https://www.jacksairplanes.net/chi-sono

  38. #118
    courierguy's Avatar
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    Yes, The real humor being this is a Super Cub site...., a design more copied, inspired by, improved upon, than probably any other aircraft ever, so I can see how my bitching about the company origins goes flat and gets old. I'll shut up now about that, it's ancient history.
    Likes hangarmonkey, pzinck liked this post

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