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Thread: Engine back from overhaul... A1A to A3A and Kenmore STC for PA-12

  1. #1
    daedgerton's Avatar
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    Engine back from overhaul... A1A to A3A and Kenmore STC for PA-12

    My engine is back from overhaul after the prop strike in the PA12 last August. Was converted from A1A to an A3A... The Kenmore STC that was used to upgrade to the O320 does not mention the A3A.. Mattituck (Continental) sent a 337 with the engine for the conversion from the A1A to the A3A. Would this separate 337 cover the reinstallation back on my PA12?

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    I suspect the 337 only covers the engine, you would need approved data cited on another 337 for installation.

    The 337 for the engine change likely has no aircraft info in blocks 1 & 2, once installed, you need to fill those fields in and forward a copy to Oklahoma City.


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    daedgerton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    I suspect the 337 only covers the engine, you would need approved data cited on another 337 for installation.

    The 337 for the engine change likely has no aircraft info in blocks 1 & 2, once installed, you need to fill those fields in and forward a copy to Oklahoma City.


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    Actually the 337 does have my airplane data in those fields...

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    Why did they convert your engine? Did you ask them too? The only difference between the 2 is the prop bolt bushings so your original prop won't fit if they really changed them to 7/16 bushings.

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    daedgerton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PA-22/20-160 View Post
    Why did they convert your engine? Did you ask them too? The only difference between the 2 is the prop bolt bushings so your original prop won't fit if they really changed them to 7/16 bushings.
    not sure why the change... I'm trying to get to the bottom of this. A condemned crank was found in the engine and had to be replaced. Engine was originally overhauled in 2006...
    Last edited by daedgerton; 03-01-2020 at 03:04 PM.
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    daedgerton's Avatar
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    This was what my IA got back from Continental...

    I was told the A3A supersedes the A1A. The A1A is a narrow deck, replaced by the wide deck A3A. It should not be a problem.

    The prop bolts on the A1A were 3/8” and on the A3A they are 7/16”. This one is an A3A with 3/8” bolts.

    What you have is an A3A that has been configured for the prop that originally went on the A1A.

    You should be good to go.


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  7. #7
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daedgerton View Post
    This was what my IA got back from Continental...

    I was told the A3A supersedes the A1A. The A1A is a narrow deck, replaced by the wide deck A3A. It should not be a problem.

    The prop bolts on the A1A were 3/8” and on the A3A they are 7/16”. This one is an A3A with 3/8” bolts.

    What you have is an A3A that has been configured for the prop that originally went on the A1A.

    You should be good to go.


    Lycoming or Continental? Confused.
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    daedgerton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by behindpropellers View Post
    Lycoming or Continental? Confused.
    Continental purchased Mattituck. Mattituck did the factory overhauls on Lycoming... but now its a Continental company. I was confused as well...
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    SuperCub MD's Avatar
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    A3A could be nd or wd, only difference is the prop bushings. The only thing that designates a wd is a A at the end of the serial number.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCub MD View Post
    A3A could be nd or wd, only difference is the prop bushings. The only thing that designates a wd is a A at the end of the serial number.
    Correct, A1A and A3A can be narrow or wide deck. The only real difference is the bushings on the prop flange. If the serial number ends with an A it is a wide deck. If no A, it is a narrow deck.


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  11. #11
    daedgerton's Avatar
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    It was an A1A narrow deck... Now its and A3A wide deck with 3/8” prop bushings...
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  12. #12
    SuperCub MD's Avatar
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    Glad I got it right...

    My guess would be that whoever did the 337 is misinterpreting SSP-488. TC E-274 shows model differences. This is not a model change.
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  13. #13
    SuperCub MD's Avatar
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    What is on the data plate?
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    daedgerton's Avatar
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    Got it on the model change... My big question now that I know I have correct prop bush.

    My Kenmore STC for 150 on the PA12 doesn't list the A3A... That is my biggest question? Is my Kenmore still good? Or does my 337 from the overhaul now cover me.

    I feel like I am overthinking this...

    My learning experience from this whole thing is that I had "cheap" annuals... I had faith in my guy... The luckiest thing that ever happened was the ground loop... Engine somehow had a condemned crank shaft... How did that get in there??? I flew my kids in that plane... 2 cylinders affected by the AD... I didn't think I was skimping on annuals, I just trusted the guy. Now I have taken maintenance on my planes much more serious. One of the reasons why I sent this off for a factory overhaul. I think the only part of this engine that is original is the data plate!

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    If your engine data plate shows O320-A3A, you will need either a Field Approval or a DER approval for a deviation to the STC.


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    daedgerton's Avatar
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    My data plate had a "C" added to the end of the serial number... That is all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daedgerton View Post
    My data plate had a "C" added to the end of the serial number... That is all.
    So what model does the data plate show?


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    Not sure... i need to drive out and confirm.

    my guess is that as said above i’ll need a deviation from the stc.

  19. #19
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Look. If the only difference is prop bushings (go verify this!) and they have installed the original size prop bushings, you have an A1A for all intents. Install the engine and note that the new engine meets the specs of an A1A as per the Lycoming specification manual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    Look. If the only difference is prop bushings (go verify this!) and they have installed the original size prop bushings, you have an A1A for all intents. Install the engine and note that the new engine meets the specs of an A1A as per the Lycoming specification manual.

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    If you go that route, verify with your IA that it is acceptable to him/her. From a practical standpoint, I wouldn’t accept it. Your mileage may vary.

    Yes I know it is the same engine, but if the data plate specifies a different model then the TC or STC it isn’t in compliance.


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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    What criteria would you use for rejection? If the only difference between the models is the prop bushings and they've been changed, then the engine meets the specs for the application. The paper trail consists of the Lycoming specification manual detailing the differences. Then you have the overhaul shops paperwork showing that the smaller prop bushings have been installed. If this was an initial install under the STC, it would be a minor variance. As a replacement engine for the STC, just a log entry with an explanation.

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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    What criteria would you use for rejection? If the only difference between the models is the prop bushings and they've been changed, then the engine meets the specs for the application. The paper trail consists of the Lycoming specification manual detailing the differences. Then you have the overhaul shops paperwork showing that the smaller prop bushings have been installed. If this was an initial install under the STC, it would be a minor variance. As a replacement engine for the STC, just a log entry with an explanation.

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    Yup. Log entry. Approved manufacturers data.


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    Engine back from overhaul... A1A to A3A and Kenmore STC for PA-12

    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    What criteria would you use for rejection? If the only difference between the models is the prop bushings and they've been changed, then the engine meets the specs for the application. The paper trail consists of the Lycoming specification manual detailing the differences. Then you have the overhaul shops paperwork showing that the smaller prop bushings have been installed. If this was an initial install under the STC, it would be a minor variance. As a replacement engine for the STC, just a log entry with an explanation.

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    What the data plate on the engine says vs what the aircraft TC or STC says. If they don’t match, it needs some “approved date” to make it match.


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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    I've actually performed this type of engine change in the past. The most recent was an engine that differed from that specified in the STC by having a prop governor drive at the front of the case. IA told me how to write it up as a minor variance. A fed looked at it and made me add an explanation on how I covered the drive pad. No different than described above.

    This is a freshly overhauled engine with the overhaul shop documenting parts/work on the engine so swapping out the prop bushings is already documented. The 'C' is stamped on the data tag as per Lycoming. As long as the logs/overhaul show the work, where is the problem? If a fed asks questions at a later date, show the log entry. It documents work done as per part 43. The paperwork for the overhaul shop covers their work. The references to Lycoming's spec sheets cover the marking of the data tag and the parts change which makes it an -A1A.

    So . . . ?

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    S2D's Avatar
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    Has anyone figured out that something just doesn't add up here.
    They overhauled the engine and changed it to a Wide deck?? Sounds like the case was replaced also.
    So Did they replace the Data plate or just change the data on it.
    If they just changed the data on it, they shouldn't have changed it to an A3A, because it isn't an A3A.
    I'd be raisng hell with the OH shop.

    How bout a picture of the Data plate
    I may be wrong but that probably won't stop me from arguing about it.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by S2D View Post
    Has anyone figured out that something just doesn't add up here.
    They overhauled the engine and changed it to a Wide deck?? Sounds like the case was replaced also.
    So Did they replace the Data plate or just change the data on it.
    If they just changed the data on it, they shouldn't have changed it to an A3A, because it isn't an A3A.
    I'd be raisng hell with the OH shop.

    How bout a picture of the Data plate
    Also, Is the serial number the same on the engine now as the one you sent in for overhaul? Maybe they just changed engines without saying? Sending out a narrow deck with a wide deck coming back is suspicious. I thought only the manufacturer could change major parts while keeping the same serial number?
    N1PA
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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Sounds like the engine overhaul shop screwed up. I think they got their letters, engine models and paperwork mixed up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    What the data plate on the engine says vs what the aircraft TC or STC says. If they don’t match, it needs some “approved date” to make it match.


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    When the administration of paper becomes more important than the application of common sense we all have a problem.

    Are baffles impacted by the change from narrow to wide deck?
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    When the administration of paper becomes more important than the application of common sense we all have a problem.

    Are baffles impacted by the change from narrow to wide deck?
    Alternator mounts are different. How they mount to the case.


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    It would be an interesting exercise to sit a group of the highly experienced and talented technicians on this forum down with log books from a bunch of the 70+ year old airplanes owned by some of us! No, I’m not volunteering my logs.......

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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    S2D and Mr Pierce have a good point. I'd like to see the data tags from the engine that left and from the one that returned. Getting a different engine back is not necessarily a deal breaker but getting a different engine back with the old data tag on it COULD be a goat rope.

    Trust the overhaul shop. But verify.

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    The unfortunate thing today is that the lawyers do more to control our actions than the FAA. When my name and number goes in the book, I want to be sure that when the day comes, and that lawyer has my log entry on the big screen in front of a jury and I’m sitting in the witness box, I can answer truthfully that the aircraft met the definition of “airworthy” when I signed it.

    Safe for flight is only half of that definition! Confirming to Type Design or properly altered is the other half. If a model number doesn’t match, how can you possibly defend that?


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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    The unfortunate thing today is that the lawyers do more to control our actions than the FAA. When my name and number goes in the book, I want to be sure that when the day comes, and that lawyer has my log entry on the big screen in front of a jury and I’m sitting in the witness box, I can answer truthfully that the aircraft met the definition of “airworthy” when I signed it.

    Safe for flight is only half of that definition! Confirming to Type Design or properly altered is the other half. If a model number doesn’t match, how can you possibly defend that?


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    They never make it to trial. They depose you for hours on end, twist your words around and try to trip you up so they can use all that as a bargaining chip when they start the settlement process. Funniest part is when the slimy bastards try and shake your hand when you walk in.
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  34. #34
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    Safe for flight is only half of that definition! Confirming to Type Design or properly altered is the other half. If a model number doesn’t match, how can you possibly defend that?


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    Re read second paragraph in post #24.

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    SuperCub MD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    So what model does the data plate show?


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    The C means the engine has been altered, so the original designation is irrelevant.

    From SI 1304J that covers engine alterations-

    "It will be the sole responsibility of the altering agent to attach the necessary service parts information along with faa form 337, or it's equivalent, to the permanent engine records and/or log book, and attest to the faa as to the airworthiness of the alteration, conversion,or modifications accomplished."

    This is just a simple paperwork screw up, should be easily fixed by the oh shop.
    Last edited by SuperCub MD; 03-04-2020 at 09:35 PM.
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  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    Correct, A1A and A3A can be narrow or wide deck. The only real difference is the bushings on the prop flange. If the serial number ends with an A it is a wide deck. If no A, it is a narrow deck.


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    Unless it ends with an E, which is the roller tappet modification, what I have not found out is if they can do that modification on the narrow decks...
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  37. #37
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astjp2 View Post
    Unless it ends with an E, which is the roller tappet modification, what I have not found out is if they can do that modification on the narrow decks...
    It would be converted to a wide deck, the crankcases are different for the roller tappets.
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    I’m pretty sure that Kenmore issued some sort of notice that its STC only applies to 150hp O-320 dash nothing in response to people using the STC to install 160hp O-320s.

    You might want to contact Kenmore directly for answers. But only if you can afford to live with what they might say.

    edit: Nope, SA4-456 STC applies to O-320s with some a and c suffixes. 150hp limits, though.
    Last edited by Paul Heinrich; 03-13-2020 at 01:00 PM. Reason: Correction

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