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Thread: PA18 widebody with 180 hp on floats 2200 or 2400

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    PA18 widebody with 180 hp on floats 2200 or 2400

    Hi I am building a cub looking for input on floats. Is 2200 enough or is 2400 a better choice. Does anyone have any performance ideas or figures. Comparing Montana 2400 or 2200 to Whipeline 2100s. Any input appreciated.

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I've been involved with both the Montana 2200 and Wipline 2100 amphibs on the same 150 hp PA-18. The Montana floats are better performers both on the water and in flight.

    The 2200 would likely be big enough.
    N1PA

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    Thx for the input do you have any comparisons or performance specs on the 2200 or 2400 cruise speeds.

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    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    I can't address the performance differences, but the smaller Montana 2200 float has round tops, and (almost useless) very small lockers. Perhaps not a big deal depending on your mission. Local flying only or do you plan big trips into Canada and Alaska? A big advantage to the Wips in those respects. I have also heard at least two folks who were not pleased with the Mt float on the ground. Shimmy and steering issues. My Wips have been great both on the ground and in the air. The Mt 2400 floats have flat tops and big lockers so an improvement in that respect, but they will be heavier than the Mt 2200 and the larger size may also affect stability in the air. Don't know as I have not flown them on a Cub but that is a consideration when "overfloating" an airplane, along with the obvious weight issue.

    Disclaimer - I have nowhere near the experience of Skywagon8a and many others on this site. So take the above with a pound of salt.

    Bill
    Very Blessed.

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    i had 2200 amphib bilmars on my exp pa-12, on another i had a set of straight flat top 2300's. with the 2300's i should have installed a ventral fin but on 1 hour or less flights it was manageable but i definitely notice the instability in the yaw, with the 2200A'S I felt under floated especially on a windy day with a load. That being said if i ever build another (both of mine had a 2400lb gw) i would hands down go with montana 2400A's. I have them on my current plane which is a glasair sportsman and absolutely love them, fantastic on and off the water handling, big hatches and flat tops. IMO i don't think the montana 2400's would be to much float for a cub. the all in weight including rigging, both pumps,pluming ect is about 450lbs.
    my 2c

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    Thank you so much for your input. What sort of cruise would you think with 180 hp

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    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    cub12 - thank you for that post. Good info. I would love to try a set of MT 2400's on a cub. Love the big lockers and flat tops on that model.

    One of the difficulties we have comparing floats is NO ONE puts different floats under exactly the same airplane. Even if they do it is often after a rebuild of that airplane where they put a new engine on it, or changed the rigging etc, thus you have so many variables you can't really compare. It would be great to have 5 sets of floats and do a really good comparison but it would take a lot of time and money and the reality is, a lot of folks are interested in floats but not many really go out and do it. So the market is pretty small.

    Lowleveldevil - for what it is worth - my Wip 2100A's with all rigging etc weigh in at 409 (if I remember right), and I cruise at 100mph at 2400 RPM on 180hp with a Catto 84-43 prop. I often run at 2300 gross and have not felt underfloated with the Wips but again I don't have a lot of experience.

    Again....JMHO and all that

    Bill
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rusk View Post
    ...I have also heard at least two folks who were not pleased with the Mt float on the ground. Shimmy and steering issues. ...
    Bill
    The early Montana floats did have shimmy issues with the nose wheels. Montana was very responsive and corrected the issue. There were two sets here that did shimmy. After the fix, no more.

    This is the 2400 mounted on a Cub clone. Since they are wider than the 2200, they will have a little more drag, which may or may not effect the cruise speed. The main wheels are 6:00-6 as compared to 5:00-5 on the 2200. https://montanafloat.com/2400-series-amphib-floats/
    They may require some stability enhancements like more tail area. This can be addressed after test flying. Increasing the area of the vertical tail surfaces while the plane is being built would do no harm.

    This is the 2200 mounted on a Glastar. Notice that the tops are flat. Since they are not as wide as the 2400 they may not initially appear so.
    https://montanafloat.com/2200-series-amphib-floats/

    If you are planning to use the full 2300 pound gross weight on your Cub, filling it with camping gear and extra fuel to head out into the wild north country where the winds and the waves can get high and wild, without going into further details I would choose the 2400 Montana floats.
    N1PA

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowleveldevil View Post
    Hi I am building a cub looking for input on floats. Is 2200 enough or is 2400 a better choice. Does anyone have any performance ideas or figures. Comparing Montana 2400 or 2200 to Whipeline 2100s. Any input appreciated.
    Are you using a kit or building from scratch? Since your objective is high gross and amphib floats, I would recommend long squared wing tips with long flaps. My flaps are 110" long and are worth every inch. It has 180 hp on EDO 2000 floats and cruises at 105 mph or more if I increase the prop pitch. As high as 120 mph, I wish it had a constant speed prop.
    N1PA

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    I ran both the bilmar and tf 2300's on my cub with a hoped up 360 and a catto 86/38 both sets were within 1-2mph of each other. the only advantage the round float had was in yaw stability. On a cessna you will see the speed advantage more with an edo 2780 or 2960 over a 3430(our c-180 lost 8-10kts going from the 2960 to aerocet 3400's) but cubs are wing limited in the speed department more so with a flat prop. Prime example external loads that suck 12-13 mph out of the cessna only steel 2 mph from the cub. I'll ditto sky wagons long wing and flap comments, mine also had the long sq wing with 8' flaps.
    If you decide to go with a constant speed prop i'll suggest looking at a composite, MT, areo composite ect as you will need to keep the nose weight down as much as possible.
    Also if I remember correctly Bill has not installed the electric hydaulic pump so if his wip set up is 409lbs with out the pump 450lbs all in with the montana 2400's is close, my guess the pump and wiring adds 20lbs.
    Likes skywagon8a liked this post

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    mvivion's Avatar
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    If memory serves, the hydraulic power pack for the Wip floats weighs 18 pounds. There’ll be a few more pounds for lines, fluid, etc.

    Float planes like wing, as Pete noted. Lots of wing.

    MTV

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Are you using a kit or building from scratch? Since your objective is high gross and amphib floats, I would recommend long squared wing tips with long flaps. My flaps are 110" long and are worth every inch. It has 180 hp on EDO 2000 floats and cruises at 105 mph or more if I increase the prop pitch. As high as 120 mph, I wish it had a constant speed prop.
    Thanks sky wagon . I have the big flaps , I have the square wings,I have the 180 hp, I have the constant speed. I’m hoping to get some spare time to put it all together in the next 18 months. The only part of my kit I have in my hands right now is my beautiful whirlwind 284 stol prop. I really appreciate your input , I’m swaying towards the 2400 floats. Thx so much your info keeps me motivated.
    Thanks skywagon8a thanked for this post

  13. #13
    Amy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    If memory serves, the hydraulic power pack for the Wip floats weighs 18 pounds. There’ll be a few more pounds for lines, fluid, etc.

    Float planes like wing, as Pete noted. Lots of wing.

    MTV
    Close! It is 17 lbs. plus lines, fluid, gear advisory if you use it, etc.
    Proud owner of a collection of airplane pieces (sometimes in one big piece) known as the Oklahoma Kid.

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