Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 120 of 215

Thread: ADSB-Getting ready to bite someone in the butt

  1. #81

    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Down low in the hills of Vermont USA
    Posts
    1,235
    Post Thanks / Like
    EAA seems to be more active at the senate level and I expect has a greater interest due to the higher count of aircraft outside rule airspace.

  2. #82
    Scouter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Exeter Maine
    Posts
    1,944
    Post Thanks / Like
    Douten
    i may have to come live with you and Donna for awhile as it is. I might have changed props last week, I told her it was for “safety”. Pat needs the cub in Lincoln April 1 for the floats so stay tuned. I’m a sick man😆😆
    But I sure have been smiling all winter

    jim
    Likes JP, Farmboy liked this post

  3. #83
    Scouter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Exeter Maine
    Posts
    1,944
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    And Jim, It looks like you find no need to fly above 300' along the coast there at lest by this mornings flights.
    Charlie I wonder why it only showed 250 feet. I put a new Whirlwind
    prop on it last week it was trying it out for a max climb when I left to go get fuel at Venice. I was close to 1000 feet about 25 seconds , I didn’t reset the altimeter setting when I left but did when I got the Venice Atis. So if I got prosecuted for low level cruise, this info is bogus. My fault for not putting proper altimeter setting in? Hmmmm

    jim

  4. #84

    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Down low in the hills of Vermont USA
    Posts
    1,235
    Post Thanks / Like
    The ADSB altitude would be from GPS. Not all of each flight is shown especially when you cross to the east coast. Might be that it takes a bit to acquire you on climb out.
    Same when you flew down to Fla, there were gaps in the displayed route.
    I will take a look at the tracks later and see if anything stands out.

  5. #85
    cub yellow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    North Central Wa.
    Posts
    28
    Post Thanks / Like
    I don't completely buy into ADSB being a big safety improvement and don't understand the need. Aren't there less general aviation aircraft in the skies then 20 or 30 years ago? I thought general aviation was in a decline. Also I can picture ADSB equipped pilots sitting there watching the screen and not looking outside! Not visually scanning for traffic!

    BP


    Sent from my VS988 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    Likes hotrod180 liked this post

  6. #86
    CamTom12's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Huntsville, AL
    Posts
    740
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    The ADSB altitude would be from GPS. Not all of each flight is shown especially when you cross to the east coast. Might be that it takes a bit to acquire you on climb out.
    Same when you flew down to Fla, there were gaps in the displayed route.
    I will take a look at the tracks later and see if anything stands out.
    I thought ADS-B altitude was required to come from the same source as your xpndr altitude encoder? And that isn't affected by altimeter setting.

  7. #87
    wireweinie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    2,796
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by CamTom12 View Post
    I thought ADS-B altitude was required to come from the same source as your xpndr altitude encoder? And that isn't affected by altimeter setting.
    Correct. An encoder is required, whether stand alone or built in. The WAAS enabled GPS provides a precision location signal.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  8. #88
    cubdrvr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    YKN(mother city of the dakotas)
    Posts
    1,155
    Post Thanks / Like
    SB is correct........contact your representatives. Suggested change: (f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times while in rule airspace unless -
    "Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"
    Likes wireweinie liked this post

  9. #89
    WhiskeyMike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    West Boxford MA
    Posts
    903
    Post Thanks / Like
    How long would most Americans put up with having their identity, and registered owner of their car, being published for anyone to see who they are and where they are? The Mommy Brigade would go bezerk for starters, and rightly so... All sorts of personal tracking, confusion, casting aspersions, mistaken tracks, divorce suits (right or wrong) and no birthday surprises. What a mess.

    For my money it should be a great tool, but badly misused, poorly regulated, and now nobody's looking out the window, even though its may not be working, and traffic may not be equipped..

    Bah, humbug! One more nail in the coffin.
    Thanks jaypratt thanked for this post
    Likes JP, skywagon8a, jaypratt liked this post

  10. #90

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    607
    Post Thanks / Like
    When the came up with a Mode S, I could see user fees coming. For something like data transmission, the size of the data block in part determines the amount of data transfer in the system. For a Mode S, the data block contains you aircraft Id not once, but twice! The only possible reason would be so they can send a bill! Now with ADSB, not only the mode S guys get to broadcast their ID, but now everyone.

    As far as improving traffic, what value is the aircraft ID. All you need is current location and altitude (3D location) and your vector. That is all that is needed for traffic, no need to know who, just that someone is “there” and heading toward me.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Thanks jaypratt thanked for this post
    Likes wireweinie, skywagon8a, jaypratt liked this post

  11. #91

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    5,091
    Post Thanks / Like
    Bitching aside, outside of highly controlled airspace we aren't required to have it. Seems fair enough. The problem is that for those of us who see some benefit? If installed we MUST use it, even where it isn't required. That's stupid.

  12. #92
    JP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    The Big Woods of Maine
    Posts
    3,214
    Post Thanks / Like
    My uncle owns a country house that no one knows about.
    They say it used to be a farm, before the Motor Laws.
    JP Russell--The Cub Therapist
    1947 PA-11 Cub Special
    www.bloomerrussellbeaupain.com
    Likes cub yellow liked this post

  13. #93

    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    115
    Post Thanks / Like
    Just a theoretical question - say you operate at a non towered field within the 30 nm mode-c arc. How would they bust you for not having the ads tracking hardware if there is no tower. Wouldn't they need spotters taking pictures of n numbers?

  14. #94
    fobjob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Salt Lake City, Utah
    Posts
    2,109
    Post Thanks / Like
    When I installed my mode S, I didn’t throw away my KT76....

    The tail number being displayed is useful when you call them to coordinate your actions. I live within the 30 mile radius of KSLC, but outside of controlled airspace due to a mountain range putting the local airport area in a radar shaded zone, so the only local targets you see are adsb equipped.
    Likes denalicub liked this post

  15. #95

    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Down low in the hills of Vermont USA
    Posts
    1,235
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by 180_jeff View Post
    Just a theoretical question - say you operate at a non towered field within the 30 nm mode-c arc. How would they bust you for not having the ads tracking hardware if there is no tower. Wouldn't they need spotters taking pictures of n numbers?
    To me, part of the answer might be "how far under" Would it be a few miles in or 5 from the center.
    I would like to think that for airports only a few miles under they would provide exclusions or a notch the way some airports currently reside under a Class B. With them you are free to come and go, one direction and under a certain altitude.

  16. #96
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    10,726
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by 180_jeff View Post
    Just a theoretical question - say you operate at a non towered field within the 30 nm mode-c arc. How would they bust you for not having the ads tracking hardware if there is no tower. Wouldn't they need spotters taking pictures of n numbers?
    Theoretically speaking, that'd probably work. Who knows if or how the FAA would ever figure it out.....but any scenario where you were unfortunate to have a mishap at your home drome could result in FAA involvement.

    The elephant in that room, though, is the fact that the FAA has apparently stated that intentional violation of the ADS-B rule will probably result in either revocation or suspension of your certificate.

    Is it worth it?

    MTV

  17. #97

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Southern NH
    Posts
    527
    Post Thanks / Like
    My home airport has a part of the delta which is actually inside the Boston 30 mile ring. More than once Boston approach has called our tower requesting the tail number of the aircraft that just landed from the south. They will track non transponder aircraft to their destination if possible.
    Mark
    Thanks StuBob thanked for this post
    Likes behindpropellers liked this post

  18. #98
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Fairbanks, AK.
    Posts
    1,920
    Post Thanks / Like
    If it weren't for all these electric gadgets you folks have installed Flightradar24 would be boring. Now I can follow a fellow pilot's pursuit of an instrument/commercial in California on my 'puter.

    Gary

  19. #99
    wireweinie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    2,796
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    The elephant in that room, though, is the fact that the FAA has apparently stated that intentional violation of the ADS-B rule will probably result in either revocation or suspension of your certificate.

    Is it worth it?

    MTV
    Maybe a lawyer could address the legal issues, but I'm not convinced that the feds would prevail if they tried to suspend/revoke for not having it on in uncontrolled airspace. My arguement would be that they require the use in only in certain airspaces. How could it then be required to be operational outside of that designated airspace. But I'm not a lawyer (. . . insert jokes here . . . .)

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  20. #100

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Southern NH
    Posts
    527
    Post Thanks / Like
    The way they can require it is by writing a regulation stating if installed, it must be on at all times. It is then required.....
    Mark

  21. #101
    wireweinie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    2,796
    Post Thanks / Like
    Not buying it.

    It's an obvious end around for 'required airspace'. I think it's a winnable argument but as it's against the faa, it's a bit like wrestling a greased pig (after a while you realize the pig is starting to enjoy it WAY to much).

    Web
    Last edited by wireweinie; 02-15-2020 at 06:43 PM.
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.
    Likes mam90 liked this post

  22. #102
    Hgr3029e's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Santa Maria, CA
    Posts
    19
    Post Thanks / Like
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ADS_B_ReferenceGuide.pdf.jpg 
Views:	186 
Size:	55.6 KB 
ID:	47015



    This graphic is from the most recent updated AC 90-114B Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast Operations
    dated 12/30/2019. Clearly shows the "rule" airspace.
    Scott and Kim Huntington
    2007 CubCrafters CC11-100 "Sierra"
    2008 CubCrafters Cc11-100 "Priscilla"


  23. #103
    Farmboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Glens Falls, NY
    Posts
    2,203
    Post Thanks / Like

    ADSB-Getting ready to bite someone in the butt

    Thread tangent : Not sure it was this thread or another that this was discussed in, but on checking for a customer the other day I ran across a prime example of ADSB ghosting.

    Now, it could be I’m wrong here, but based on what I normally see, these idents is the same aircraft ghosting.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8104.JPG 
Views:	110 
Size:	392.4 KB 
ID:	47018

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8106.JPG 
Views:	80 
Size:	347.7 KB 
ID:	47019

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8108.JPG 
Views:	74 
Size:	343.9 KB 
ID:	47020

    As you see, formation-ish flight, only one N number, both Cape Air 402’s, and 200’-ish Alt discrepancy.

    Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers...

  24. #104
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    10,726
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    Not buying it.

    It's an obvious end around for 'required airspace'. I think it's a winnable argument but as it's against the faa, it's a bit light wrestling a greased pig (after a while you realize the pig is starting to enjoy it WAY to much).

    Web
    read the regulation, it’s actually quite clear and in plain English. I’m betting they’d win that one in a heartbeat. Remember, these are not criminal issues, and the FAA only has to prove you violated a reg. And no jury.

    MTV
    Thanks mam90 thanked for this post

  25. #105
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    10,726
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    Thread tangent : Not sure it was this thread or another that this was discussed in, but on checking for a customer the other day I ran across a prime example of ADSB ghosting.

    Now, it could be I’m wrong here, but based on what I normally see, these idents is the same aircraft ghosting.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8104.JPG 
Views:	110 
Size:	392.4 KB 
ID:	47018

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8106.JPG 
Views:	80 
Size:	347.7 KB 
ID:	47019

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_8108.JPG 
Views:	74 
Size:	343.9 KB 
ID:	47020

    As you see, formation-ish flight, only one N number, both Cape Air 402’s, and 200’-ish Alt discrepancy.

    Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers...
    Well, it IS Cape Air.......

    MTV
    Likes Farmboy liked this post

  26. #106

    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    115
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by mam90 View Post
    They will track non transponder aircraft to their destination if possible.
    What if you take off within the 30 nm arc at an non-towered field and then fly to another non-towered field - how are they going to know it was you unless they have a guy on the ground taking pictures?

  27. #107

    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Southern NH
    Posts
    527
    Post Thanks / Like
    Ya, agree. Likely won’t get caught. Just sharing info for those who haven’t experienced some of the techniques that have been used to identify violating aircraft. It’s like speeding. Not an issue unless you’re caught. What’s your license worth to you?
    Mark

  28. #108

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    607
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    read the regulation, it’s actually quite clear and in plain English. I’m betting they’d win that one in a heartbeat. Remember, these are not criminal issues, and the FAA only has to prove you violated a reg. And no jury.

    MTV
    Don’t forget, with administrative law you are guilty until you prove innocence as well. The deck is stacked against you.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  29. #109

    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Utah/Alaska
    Posts
    96
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by RoddyM View Post
    Interesting topic. We are considering flying from NB through Northern Maine all the way to SNF. One aircraft has just mode C and the other, a Cub, has ADS-B In and Out. Our research, so far, looks like we can make the flight right to Lakeland FL from Northern Maine without ADS-B. We’d fly Interstate route 81 generally, at least part of it. Can anyone comment on the viability of doing this? We’d be staying away from big centers irregardless, but would still be landing at airports with FBO’s and fuel. Thanks in advance!
    You need it to cross the border unless you do not have an electrical system.
    Thanks Coulee Clipper thanked for this post

  30. #110

    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Utah/Alaska
    Posts
    96
    Post Thanks / Like
    Tower: Taylorcraft 29787, please Ident
    787: Negative transponder, no electrical system...
    end of conversation

  31. #111
    mvivion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Bozeman,MT
    Posts
    10,726
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by astjp2 View Post
    You need it to cross the border unless you do not have an electrical system.
    You do not need ADS-B to cross the northern US border. In fact, you can get a waiver to cross the US/Canada border without a transponder.

    MTV
    Likes DENNY liked this post

  32. #112
    hotrod180's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Port Townsend, WA
    Posts
    2,932
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by 180_jeff View Post
    What if you take off within the 30 nm arc at an non-towered field and then fly to another non-towered field - how are they going to know it was you unless they have a guy on the ground taking pictures?
    "Hello SnitchAir FBO, this is the FAA calling.
    Did an airplane just land? What's the tail number?""
    "yeah, it's a yellow cub, tail number N12345".

    Seen & heard of this being done in years past for (usually flagrant) airspace violations.
    Plenty of people would just as soon rat you out as lie and say "nope, didn't see anybody land".

    And as far as suing the FAA about how the ADS-B on all the time reg isn't fair....good luck.
    Pretty sure you'll run out of lawyer money before they do.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
    Likes Eddy Lewis liked this post

  33. #113

    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Down low in the hills of Vermont USA
    Posts
    1,235
    Post Thanks / Like
    How about those that have their own grass strip or as at least one member here keeps his plane on a pond inside the 30.

  34. #114
    CenterHillAg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Texas Coast
    Posts
    115
    Post Thanks / Like
    I’m sure we all have campfire stories that’ll never see the light of day to keep the feds finding out about them, but ADS-B isn’t one of those things I can see trying to go rogue on. As is, the regs seem to have all the bases covered and the penalties are severe. All it takes is some do-gooder turning you in for violating reg airspace, and FSDO inspectors are required to investigate every complaint.

    The only reason I’d like ADS-B is the ability to fly to a parts supplier that’s 5 miles into the Mode C, but I’m not paying $2k for that convenience a couple times a year.

  35. #115
    txpacer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Iowa Park, TX
    Posts
    703
    Post Thanks / Like
    I've seen approach controllers listen in on the local CTAF to get the tail number of a plane that clipped their airspace, then leave a number to call at the FBO. To be fair, it was for restricted area violations, but it shows how else they can track you.

    Lesson learned here: if there's any doubt, go nordo.
    Likes skywagon8a, Eddy Lewis liked this post

  36. #116

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    6,952
    Post Thanks / Like
    Easier in Texas.

    I have recounted this before, but I got tagged for carefully flying under class B, and not calling approach control.
    I left one airport - controller told me to contact SoCal. I said no, I would maintain 1500' and contact my destination tower. Space between the deltas was maybe six miles.

    My friendly tower said "Bob, when you get on the ground call this number." (They know me by name).

    So I did. Controller said even though I was in constant contact with ATC, and even though I had guaranteed my altititude, he had stopped departures out of the local Marine base because he personally had not verified my altitude.

    I went a little further up the ATC chain of command. A supervisor with J3 time in Texas told me not to worry about it - I was doing everything correctly.

    Controllers here are pushing not only for all VFR aircraft to be in flight following mode, but to avoid airspace below class B unless a 1000' cushion can be maintained. I like flight following, but no longer use it locally because they vector me way, way off my course. My fuel is just as expensive as a practice ILS aircraft. And I know where they are, and avoid them all by myself.
    Likes Gordon Misch, Eddy Lewis liked this post

  37. #117
    cubdrvr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    YKN(mother city of the dakotas)
    Posts
    1,155
    Post Thanks / Like
    Question: If you are in flight following mode and ATC issues those vectors you don't want to accept can you just cancel FF and fly your desired course?
    "Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"

  38. #118

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    607
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by cubdrvr View Post
    Question: If you are in flight following mode and ATC issues those vectors you don't want to accept can you just cancel FF and fly your desired course?
    If you are using ATC for flight following, you aren’t operating on a clearance, unless they clear you into some airspace that requires a clearance. Now 91.123 says you need to follow clearances and instructions, but there is nothing that says you can’t cancel flight following. So the direct answer would be yes, cancel flight following and fly your desired route. I hate talking to ATC unless IFR, so I never use flight following.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  39. #119
    hotrod180's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Port Townsend, WA
    Posts
    2,932
    Post Thanks / Like
    The only times i've used FF in the past 20 years is in class c airspace.
    And thats because when i get the airspaceclearance, i get FF along wit it--
    like it or not.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  40. #120

    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    115
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by CenterHillAg View Post
    All it takes is some do-gooder turning you in for violating reg airspace, and FSDO inspectors are required to investigate every complaint.
    Back to my theoretical question - how does some 'do-gooder' on the ground know if you are equipped with ads tracking h/w? My understanding is even the class d towers do not have that information on their screens. And, if you operating from non-towered fields (but within the 30 nm arc) how is anyone going to know who you are?

Similar Threads

  1. Adsb in & out
    By The Kid in forum All Things Electrical
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 01-02-2020, 02:38 PM
  2. wing butt rib plate
    By kiwicubber in forum Super Cub Sick Bay
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-12-2018, 02:07 AM
  3. just a thought but could save your butt
    By busbart1 in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-10-2013, 11:09 PM
  4. The BIG Mofawkers were on the bite.
    By Torch in forum Sportsman's Den
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 10-31-2011, 08:10 AM
  5. Nice place for gas and a bite to eat in interior AK
    By chuckpodo in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 06-13-2011, 03:52 PM

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •