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Thread: ADSB-Getting ready to bite someone in the butt

  1. #121
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    If "somebody" has a concern, then "somebody", perhaps somebody with some powers, might start asking difficult questions. Civil disobedience has its place, if one is ready willing and able to accept the possible consequences of the fight.
    Gordon

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  2. #122
    cubdrvr's Avatar
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    ..........and don't forget ASRS reports
    "Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"
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  3. #123
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdrvr View Post
    ..........and don't forget ASRS reports
    Sorry, Dave, ASRS only gets you off the hook if the violation is “inadvertent”.

    So stop asking questions on a public forum.

    MTV
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  4. #124
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    The first time is always "inadvertent"
    ........and it's always the first time since NASA can't give these reports to the FAA.
    "Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by 180_jeff View Post
    Back to my theoretical question - how does some 'do-gooder' on the ground know if you are equipped with ads tracking h/w? My understanding is even the class d towers do not have that information on their screens. And, if you operating from non-towered fields (but within the 30 nm arc) how is anyone going to know who you are?
    There are app's that track aircraft in real time via ADS-B.
    Flight Radar 24 is one of them, I'm sure there are others.
    FR24 only tracks 1090, not 978, but I'm sure there are others that track both.
    That's where the "anonymous" feature of a 978 unit comes in handy.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  6. #126

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    Anonymous isn't anonymous anymore. Read post #15.

    Write your representatives. The requirement to display your identity and location to the world needs to be revised.

  7. #127
    cubdrvr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Anonymous isn't anonymous anymore. Read post #15.

    Write your representatives. The requirement to display your identity and location to the world needs to be revised.
    What SB sez: There are a bunch of us on this site .......like a whole bunch......that routinely fly outside any rule airspace. If I counted right there are only 15 airports........10 class C and 5 class B ( not including CA) that are west of Texas. Our representatives will listen to us more so than any organization. Call or write 'em. Explain how ADS_B works and that the government does not need to know ownership for any FAA purpose even in rule airspace. Have them challenge the FAA on why this was done. Can you imagine the push-back if that were on boats or autos?
    One of our current Senators was former Gov of SD and used to fly our state King Air on a regular basis. Surely, there are other pilot representatives out there.
    I can flat guarantee that knowing the identity of every aircraft in the country will not solve any safety issues or prevent any accidents. It will however, lead to automated enforcement and user fees. Where was AOPA and EAA?
    "Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"

  8. #128
    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdrvr View Post
    What SB sez: There are a bunch of us on this site .......like a whole bunch......that routinely fly outside any rule airspace. If I counted right there are only 15 airports........10 class C and 5 class B ( not including CA) that are west of Texas. Our representatives will listen to us more so than any organization. Call or write 'em. Explain how ADS_B works and that the government does not need to know ownership for any FAA purpose even in rule airspace. Have them challenge the FAA on why this was done. Can you imagine the push-back if that were on boats or autos?
    One of our current Senators was former Gov of SD and used to fly our state King Air on a regular basis. Surely, there are other pilot representatives out there.
    I can flat guarantee that knowing the identity of every aircraft in the country will not solve any safety issues or prevent any accidents. It will however, lead to automated enforcement and user fees. Where was AOPA and EAA?
    Well said. Writing Congressfolks is not hard. You'll likely get a phone call from a field rep. Be pleasant and persistent. Sometimes things happen....

    I agree with the privacy approach, comparing to cars or boats. It is legitimate. It's not just governmental entities that are following us around.
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  9. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by 180_jeff View Post
    Back to my theoretical question - how does some 'do-gooder' on the ground know if you are equipped with ads tracking h/w? My understanding is even the class d towers do not have that information on their screens. And, if you operating from non-towered fields (but within the 30 nm arc) how is anyone going to know who you are?
    If you launched from inside the mode c ring with transponder and adsb turned off, you could be tracked to destination with local law enforcement there to greet (its been done). If the FAA takes serious issue with the infraction, you can be tracked to ground irregardless of local radar coverage

    If you take off and land with your adsb switched off outside of rule airspace ‘probably’ no one would know.


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  10. #130
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdrvr View Post
    What SB sez: There are a bunch of us on this site .......like a whole bunch......that routinely fly outside any rule airspace. If I counted right there are only 15 airports........10 class C and 5 class B ( not including CA) that are west of Texas. Our representatives will listen to us more so than any organization. Call or write 'em. Explain how ADS_B works and that the government does not need to know ownership for any FAA purpose even in rule airspace. Have them challenge the FAA on why this was done. Can you imagine the push-back if that were on boats or autos?
    One of our current Senators was former Gov of SD and used to fly our state King Air on a regular basis. Surely, there are other pilot representatives out there.
    I can flat guarantee that knowing the identity of every aircraft in the country will not solve any safety issues or prevent any accidents. It will however, lead to automated enforcement and user fees. Where was AOPA and EAA?
    Dave,

    ADS-B was initially thought of as providing "Radar-like" coverage in areas with no FAA radar. In fact, it's being used like that right now in Southwest Alaska, where the original ADS-B program, called "Capstone" was introduced as a test project. Radar is VERY expensive to install and maintain, so the initial thought was that this ADS-B thingy could be a lot cheaper. Of course, they didn't count the cost of building and maintaining the Ground Based Transmitters (GBT).....

    So, now they're shutting down VORs and NDBs because they're too expensive to maintain, after having built a country-wide system of GBTs......duh. I can hardly wait till someone decides to block GPS in a big way.

    And, of course, the FAA has now initiated a program to consider making ADS-B satellite based, at least in Alaska. Which, of course they should have done from the git go.

    In other words, this program is a mess. The bad news: It's an FAA mess, and they'll never admit that it's a mess, because it was invented by them. And, the FAA detests Congressional "interference".

    So, you may make some headway writing your representatives in Congress, but unless it gets shoved down the FAA's throat, it'll never go anywhere. Witness Basic Med and ELTs.

    MTV
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  11. #131

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    If you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

    Write your representatives. Google up their contact info and send them a message. It'll take about a minute each. Be part of the solution.

  12. #132
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Not sure why some are saying you can’t be anonymous. I saw two GA aircraft last week with “blocked” showing up on the info box of flightradar24. One was a customers bonanza. So I believe it’s an option by request.


    Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers...

  13. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    Not sure why some are saying you can’t be anonymous. I saw two GA aircraft last week with “blocked” showing up on the info box of flightradar24. One was a customers bonanza. So I believe it’s an option by request.


    Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers...
    Even AOPA came out and admitted anonymous is not anonymous. The gummit's original intent was for it to be anonymous to the third parties. I was on a Bendix-King/Social Flight webinar last week (the feds participated) and they explained how the gummit knows who you are and how the third parties have figured it out, too.

    The whole purpose of the ads tracking h/w is for the gummit to shift the cost of the atc system from them to the users and put the means in place to levy user fees and mete out violations. To get you members of the hive to get all enthusiastic, they gave you a few bread crumbs in the form of ads "in"
    Last edited by 180_jeff; 02-17-2020 at 06:52 PM.

  14. #134
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    There are criminal sanctions for certain violations of FAR--ie false statements on a medical. Air controllers have received federal time for false statements. Repeated operations of an aircraft after revocation is another.
    Marine Corps Aviation since 1966

  15. #135
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    My GTX335 slides out of the tray quite easily. Sounds like I may do that until the dust clears.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  16. #136
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    My GTX335 slides out of the tray quite easily. Sounds like I may do that until the dust clears.
    You might as well just switch it off. If anyone has a reason to look inside the cockpit, the tray will prove that the system has been installed. Pulling the unit out of the tray will not help.

    Web
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  17. #137
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Where does it say that you can't uninstall any of the avionics if they are not required on a Cessna 180? I need to see some FAA reg that says that once you install ADS-b out that it must remain forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    You might as well just switch it off. If anyone has a reason to look inside the cockpit, the tray will prove that the system has been installed. Pulling the unit out of the tray will not help.

    Web
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  18. #138
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Same reg that says if installed it must be operational. Pull the tray out and you might get away with it. This is different than pulling a uAvionics unit off a wing/tail. In that case the entire system is removed.

    Your wallet. Just don't get caught and it's a moot point. If you pull the unit, might at least cover the tray with a kydex strip.

    Web
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  19. #139

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    ADSB is a small data payload and a CRC check on the end. That's it. (https://mode-s.org/decode/adsb/introduction.html)

    There is no signature that can be verified (I can say I am anyone in the sky and you can't tell if I am telling you the truth)

    There is no point to point encryption (I can listen to anyone's traffic and interject as I see fit with the obvious problems that would cause)

    ADSB at its very core is an extremely insecure protocol essentially depending on your (the pilots) participation simply because you are told to do so.

    Every single transponder with ADSB out capability has the ability to change its own configuration. You (the pilot) could illegally change the type designation and Mode S output, the proceed to bust any airspace you like all the while (mostly) showing up as someone else's aircraft. This is very illegal. But, it sure does limit the suggestion that ADSB is somehow beneficial for security.

    Better yet, GPS positional data is and open format (with a variety of formats supported by most). It is quite simple to feed bogus GPS data to a transponder. Ground stations would be able to determine this anomaly, but air-to-air would not. A spoofed target could report at any altitude and as any type of aircraft and from the air, you would not be able to tell what is real and what is not. This exact thing has been demonstrated with consumer drones fitted with cheap ADSB-out chipsets.

    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...ed-say-hackers

    All of this said, I do not dislike ADSB. I think the implementation is garbage (but fixable), the privacy implications horrible (yet fixable), however find it most concerning there is the notion we should take it on the chin and just be happy they still let us fly...

    The reasons there are such severe consequences for turning off your ADSB output is because that is the only control they have left over you. The tech itself is easily defeated.
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  20. #140
    mvivion's Avatar
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    If you pull the unit out of the tray, the unit has to be “disabled” and a logbook entry made to reflect that.

    Which brings up about a dozen interpretations as to what “disabled” means, and who is authorized to make and sign that logbook entry. Some say just collaring the circuit breaker with a tie wrap is “disabling”. Others argue even that’s not good enough. Some say a pilot can log a disabled unit, others say nope....gotta be an A&P. And I’ve heard both sides of both arguments from FAA Inspectors.

    But, you cannot legally just remove a piece of installed equipment from an airplane, and go fly....

    MTV

    MTV

  21. #141

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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    Same reg that says if installed it must be operational. Pull the tray out and you might get away with it. This is different than pulling a uAvionics unit off a wing/tail. In that case the entire system is removed.

    Your wallet. Just don't get caught and it's a moot point. If you pull the unit, might at least cover the tray with a kydex strip.

    Web
    You might be ok with removal and placard per 91.213(d)(3).


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  22. #142
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    Just a little off the topic, I just received a Email from UAvionix about their new products. They have a tail mounted unit that transmit on 1090 and services as a transponder. This makes it compliant to ICAO standards. To use it as a transponder you will need a comparable head or buy one of their two units that will do the job . One is a MFD W/ several functions including a attitude ind. the other is smaller and has several function. The new ADS-B is 2495, the other units are roughly $1595 and $995. Just a little food for though.
    Ps. This unit is experimental at this time and expected to be approved in the near future. Install expected to be 12 hours also.

  23. #143
    SJ's Avatar
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    I would be more than willing to send an agreed upon organizational message (if it helps) to representatives, etc. We could do a survey and collect some counts of those interested. As much as I like to see other traffic with ADS-B I have never liked the privacy ramifications - although, if you are carrying around a cellphone, the powers that be could track your whereabouts - even with location services off to some extent. In fact, you can buy the private market data to tell how many "phones" (thus people" are in any given place (like a store or an event) - said a friend in the cell phone industry - although I don't think they advertise the service.

    sj
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  24. #144
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    My view is that the biggest problem with the ADS-B regs is the requirement that it be operational even in airspace where the regs do not require it. I just don't see how that is legally defensible. As posted above, if it were changed to require all units to be operating when in the designated airspace, most of the complaints will go away.

    What are the other opinions on needed changes?

    Web
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  25. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    although, if you are carrying around a cellphone, the powers that be could track your whereabouts - even with location services off to some extent.
    This is absolute truth, however I could use one of these:

    https://www.amazon.com/Mission-Darkn.../dp/B01A7MACL2

    ...and not lose my ticket over it.

  26. #146

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    My messages are already sent. I'll follow up on those every few days.

    Alaska is exempt from ADS-B except in class C. It's crazy that most owners will not use this tech because of the public tracking. Only the government could eff something up so badly.
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  27. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by motosix View Post
    This is absolute truth, however I could use one of these:

    https://www.amazon.com/Mission-Darkn.../dp/B01A7MACL2

    ...and not lose my ticket over it.
    Interesting thought, have the system on a working, but throw a faraday bag over it.


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  28. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    Interesting thought, have the system on a working, but throw a faraday bag over it.
    That is not how I intended it, but I like the creativity...

    It is way easier just to have a loose connection from the GPS source to the transponder...No GPS, no ADSB. Transponder is still fully functional and no removal of parts required.

  29. #149
    cubdrvr's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post

    But, you cannot legally just remove a piece of installed equipment from an airplane, and go fly....

    MTV

    MTV
    My understanding is that if an aircraft is "equipped" it must be "transmitting". Grace period to get to your destination or a place for repairs if unit is TU in flight.
    So, if you are on the ground and KNOW that your unit is broken(self inflicted or not)....NO MATTER WHERE THE HELL YOU ARE IN THE COUNTRY......you cannot fly. But.......if you do fly and avoid rule airspace
    nobody will know......but you are illegal. As bone headed as the FAA is I cannot image this was their intent.
    To bypass this, in my opinion, is to"unequip the equipment" somehow. TXP is part of the equipment so you can't disable it. That leaves only removal. Per UavioniX I was told you can uninstall
    and install at your discretion ( from STC to no STC and back). What about paperwork? Is this different than going from wheels to skis and back? Can an owner do it once installed? Can an owner
    remove a com radio, send in for repair, and rerack?
    My take is that if you have UavioniX the owner can remove a couple screws, pull 2 more bullet connectors and he is unequipped until he wants to be equipped again.

    Maybe time to get my unmost favorite organization involved........ACLU
    "Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"

  30. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    My view is that the biggest problem with the ADS-B regs is the requirement that it be operational even in airspace where the regs do not require it. I just don't see how that is legally defensible. As posted above, if it were changed to require all units to be operating when in the designated airspace, most of the complaints will go away.

    What are the other opinions on needed changes?

    Web
    I fail to see the need for ADSB in rule airspace. ATC already knows your tailnumber, altitude and intentions in Charlie and Bravo. They have a transponder pressure altitude above 10,000' and inside the mode C ring
    Outside the rule airspace seems to be where it would be most advantageous...but it's not required there....??? (that's fine with me, it should be personal preference) I was pulled over this summer and asked by a trooper why I wasn't wearing my seatbelt. I replied "same reason I not wearing a helmet, personal preference" ....got a ticket.

    I don't care to be tracked and also suspect this probably has some relationship to future user fees. I like the safety factor possible with ADSB in uncontrolled airspace but believe it should be my choice whether I turn it on or off.

  31. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdrvr View Post
    if you are on the ground and KNOW that your unit is broken....NO MATTER WHERE THE HELL YOU ARE IN THE COUNTRY......you cannot fly. But.......if you do fly and avoid rule airspace nobody will know......but you are illegal. As bone headed as the FAA is I cannot image this was their intent.
    Is it bad that I believe this is exactly what their intent was?

    This set of rules was written almost entirely on behalf of big iron flying in the sky. Bug smashers like us should not get any say in how we are managed.
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  32. #152
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdrvr View Post
    So, if you are on the ground and KNOW that your unit is broken(self inflicted or not)....NO MATTER WHERE THE HELL YOU ARE IN THE COUNTRY......you cannot fly. But.......if you do fly and avoid rule airspace
    nobody will know......but you are illegal. As bone headed as the FAA is I cannot image this was their intent.
    They will tell you that you need to use the adapt tool to get to where you need to be to get fixed.

  33. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynlow View Post
    I fail to see the need for ADSB in rule airspace. ATC already knows your tailnumber, altitude and intentions in Charlie and Bravo. They have a transponder pressure altitude above 10,000' and inside the mode C ring
    Outside the rule airspace seems to be where it would be most advantageous...but it's not required there....??? (that's fine with me, it should be personal preference) I was pulled over this summer and asked by a trooper why I wasn't wearing my seatbelt. I replied "same reason I not wearing a helmet, personal preference" ....got a ticket.

    I don't care to be tracked and also suspect this probably has some relationship to future user fees. I like the safety factor possible with ADSB in uncontrolled airspace but believe it should be my choice whether I turn it on or off.
    When the FAA first announced the new ADS-B requirement they said that it's purpose was to be able to shut down the radar in the ATC system due to high costs and that the ADS-B would be a better system.
    It is also known that the central FAA bureaucracy thinks that a very small plane is a King Air. An FAA engineer in Anchorage told me this long ago.
    N1PA

  34. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    When the FAA first announced the new ADS-B requirement they said that it's purpose was to be able to shut down the radar in the ATC system due to high costs and that the ADS-B would be a better system.
    It is also known that the central FAA bureaucracy thinks that a very small plane is a King Air. An FAA engineer in Anchorage told me this long ago.
    Iam none too techy so can the adsb satellite see a non equipped 172 outside of rule airspace without existing radar ?


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  35. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by flynlow View Post
    Iam none too techy so can the adsb satellite see a non equipped 172 outside of rule airspace without existing radar ?


    Sent from my iPhone
    The ADSB satellite or ground station can not see anything that is not transmitting on the frequency it is tuned for.

    Radar transmits a power pulse that will bounce off reflective objects and is then recognized by it's receiver.
    What the radar can not see is, wood, fabric, and composites. It can see your engine and the tubes of your fuselage which provide a very small "target"

  36. #156
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynlow View Post
    Iam none too techy so can the adsb satellite see a non equipped 172 outside of rule airspace without existing radar ?


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    There is no such thing as an “ADS-B satellite”. ADS-B is purely a ground based system, other than the fact that your unit must be connected to a GPS receiver for position data.

    But this entire system is built upon a collection of “GBTs” or Ground Based Transmitters”. The system would have made much more sense as a space based system, but that ship has sailed.

    MTV
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  37. #157
    Lowrider
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    Yip...I'm working out the 12 amp windmill thingy hung on the belly...may be the best of both worlds and it makes the the nose lighter...not that matters. My biggest concern is drones.
    Somewhere along the way I have lost the ability to act politically correct. If you should find it, please feel free to keep it.

    There are no new ways to crash an airplane no matter how hard you may try!

  38. #158

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    ADSB-Getting ready to bite someone in the butt

    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    The ADSB satellite or ground station can not see anything that is not transmitting on the frequency it is tuned for.

    Radar transmits a power pulse that will bounce off reflective objects and is then recognized by it's receiver.
    What the radar can not see is, wood, fabric, and composites. It can see your engine and the tubes of your fuselage which provide a very small "target"
    Thanks, that was also my understanding
    Sooo with this improvement ATC will lose the capability to report VFR traffic unless everyone is forced to equip and use ADSB outside rule airspace?? Otherwise the aircraft not presently required will be invisible..??
    Numerous times i have heard ATC report suspected flocks of birds ... perhaps only the lead goose with be required to comply with the new improved regs.


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    You are correct it is a control issue

  40. #160

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    Jan 2005
    Location
    Fowler, Ks
    Posts
    555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Stash View Post
    You are correct it is a control issue
    I was skirting DFW airspace a couple days ago with approach calling out numerous “vfr traffic” to me receiving radar advisories (ff) if i hadnt vectored and descended one of those blips likely would have traded paint
    If the radar is decommissioned, obviously these blips will become invisible. This seems insane!


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