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Thread: ADSB-Getting ready to bite someone in the butt

  1. #201
    algonquin's Avatar
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    This is really simple, there are areas that are restricted to aircraft without radios, if it bothers you to be around NORDO aircraft stay in controlled areas. You know the rules if you have a license, simply stay where your happy and don’t ask anybody to change to make you happy. There are only a fraction of the airplanes flying around today than 40-50 years ago and things were great. Of course the training was different then, you were made to look out and fly patterns and if you didn’t people might recommend how to fit in the traffic better. Really simple when everybody is on the same sheet of music.
    Likes skywagon8a, RaisedByWolves liked this post

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    Much as I hate to, I have to agree.
    I get it, NORDO ops are great, no radio hassles, all the nordo guys say it's fine, we practice see & avoid, etc.
    Some guys even say they always give way to other traffic.
    Unfortunately, when that other traffic has no idea what the hell you're doing, esp when you turn out of the pattern or do something else unexpected,
    or if you even see us, it can sometimes result in a Chinese fire drill by everyone else in the pattern.
    As easy as it is to set up a $200 handheld radio & a $100 headset in a non-electric airplane,
    I think it's kinda selfish for people not to use radios.
    Kinda like the guy who fires a stogie up in a restaurant after dinner-
    yeah, he's enjoying it but it's annoying the hell out of everyone else.
    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I understand and somewhat agree with what you said, however. Those who have and use radios depend on their radios to keep them out of trouble. I have observed from the days when it was unique to even have a radio, that the more radios/electronics an airplane was equip with, the more the pilot did not make any effort to even look out the window. This is from personal observations from riding in the "other" seat under the capacity of just passenger, CFI, Co-pilot and Airline Captain. Pilots like their gadgets, the more they have, the more they play with them. This means that they don't make any effort to look out for other traffic.

    Your comment of ".I think it's kinda selfish for people not to use radios." can be taken from the opposite perspective. .I think it's kinda selfish for people not to look out the windows for other airplanes. I lost track years ago of how many potential midairs I have avoided by looking out the windows. The other airplanes ranged in size from small to very large.

    I'll not bore you with any details.
    I like and agree with both of these. I think you agree with each other as well - additional gizmos don't take away from "see and avoid" requirements, but they do offer another aid to help increase SA.
    Likes skywagon8a liked this post

  3. #203
    RatCub Redux FrankO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Well, I have to at least partially disagree. Frankly, like Skywagon, I hear pilots all the time using radios to give the rest of us instructions.....as if they were self anointed controllers at uncontrolled airports.

    The jet jock who calls from sixty out to the FBO so the anointed in the back won't have to wait five minutes for their rental car to arrive, or the potty to be serviced.

    The twin pilot who appears to be unable or at least unwilling to actually fly a traffic pattern, so they announce from ten out that they're on final and make way for them....

    The folks flying "bomber patterns" who then expect everyone to get the hey outta their way, even though we're all flying "normal" patterns.

    Etc. And, yes, there are many pilots who communicate very professionally as well.

    And, then there's the kid flying an Air Tractor 502 in NW Minnesota, working his airplane hard, and earning a living with it to support his family. That AT 502 doesn't have a radio. He operates only at uncontrolled fields. He happens to be deaf, and I can just about guarantee you that he's looking out the windows all the time.

    And, I know of at least one instrument rated deaf person....seriously.

    Point is, nobody's perfect. We could all spend more time looking out the windows for traffic, and most of us, myself included, could probably be more proficient on the radio. Some more than others.

    But by the same token, I've been around some NORDO folks who were as good in the pattern as anyone.....radios or not.

    MTV
    Gawd, can I relate...KCOE (Coeur díAlene, ID) is swamped with Richie Richís swinginí in with their private jets announcing long finals and would-the-FBO-be-ready-with-immediate-baggage-offload-and-ready-to-pickup requests for the famous-on-board? Pretty much the daily routine during the summer months....


    Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  4. #204

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    How in the hell did this thread turn into a NORDO conversation?
    Likes JimParker256 liked this post

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    Much as I hate to, I have to agree.
    I get it, NORDO ops are great, no radio hassles, all the nordo guys say it's fine, we practice see & avoid, etc.
    Some guys even say they always give way to other traffic.
    Unfortunately, when that other traffic has no idea what the hell you're doing, esp when you turn out of the pattern or do something else unexpected,
    or if you even see us, it can sometimes result in a Chinese fire drill by everyone else in the pattern.
    As easy as it is to set up a $200 handheld radio & a $100 headset in a non-electric airplane,
    I think it's kinda selfish for people not to use radios.
    Kinda like the guy who fires a stogie up in a restaurant after dinner-
    yeah, he's enjoying it but it's annoying the hell out of everyone else.
    The problem is people are too dependent on the radio and now ads-b and donít bother to look out the window anymore. When they fly a 40 mile final and yell at me for flying a tight pattern in a noradio Stearman at an in controlled airport somehow Iím the a hole? Sometimes I fly airplanes that arenít mine and donít have a radio or a good working radio. You canít hear much over the wind noise in a Stearman. Donít get complacent and keep an eye out for airplanes flying a pattern.


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  6. #206
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    Pattern altitude in my cub is "variable" as I know I won't run into a slower bird.
    Also noting: If you have no ADS-B rule airspace is just a few large airports, but if you have ADS-B installed rule airspace is EVERYWHERE in the US.
    "Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"

  7. #207

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    For what it's worth, AOPA and Garmin both told me last week that there is nothing transmitted in anonymous mode that identifies the aircraft. According to them, everyone will know where you are, but not who you are, if anonymous mode is enabled.

    That said, and since I'm not the most trusting soul out there, has anyone here actually decoded the data stream out of a GDL-82 or some other anonymous mode equipped ADS-B transmitter to see what data is actually broadcast? I know it's been done, or ADSBExchange and the others would not be able to track you. I'd just like to see the actual contents myself rather than relying on anecdotes as to whether someone was tracked or not in anonymous mode.

  8. #208

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    With the SkyBeacon, and watching on FlyQ, even in anonymous mode the N# shows for about the first 5 minutes of the flight, then goes to ďVFRĒ, and then switches back to the N# once you land.


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  9. #209

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Jones View Post
    For what it's worth, AOPA and Garmin both told me last week that there is nothing transmitted in anonymous mode that identifies the aircraft. According to them, everyone will know where you are, but not who you are, if anonymous mode is enabled.

    That said, and since I'm not the most trusting soul out there, has anyone here actually decoded the data stream out of a GDL-82 or some other anonymous mode equipped ADS-B transmitter to see what data is actually broadcast? I know it's been done, or ADSBExchange and the others would not be able to track you. I'd just like to see the actual contents myself rather than relying on anecdotes as to whether someone was tracked or not in anonymous mode.
    That's odd as AOPA was one of the sources that broke the story. At best that was misleading statement, or maybe disingenuous (they lied). Here is a link to the video posted on a webinar put on by Social Flight and Bendix-King. They had two of the FAA guys on there from their AD-BS office. I was a little disappointed as the discussion was aimed more at privacy with the third party guys, not privacy from the gummit, but there are enough tidbits to explain how the gummit still knows who you are. I believe it has to do with the initial broadcast and the time it takes for the system the start broadcasting anonymously based on a randomized solution the algorithm uses.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLtBcLOY9xM
    Last edited by 180_jeff; 02-23-2020 at 06:41 PM.

  10. #210
    fancypants's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Jones View Post
    For what it's worth, AOPA and Garmin both told me last week that there is nothing transmitted in anonymous mode that identifies the aircraft. According to them, everyone will know where you are, but not who you are, if anonymous mode is enabled.

    That said, and since I'm not the most trusting soul out there, has anyone here actually decoded the data stream out of a GDL-82 or some other anonymous mode equipped ADS-B transmitter to see what data is actually broadcast? I know it's been done, or ADSBExchange and the others would not be able to track you. I'd just like to see the actual contents myself rather than relying on anecdotes as to whether someone was tracked or not in anonymous mode.
    Tom, you are wise not to trust internet speculation and manufacturers' marketing departments when it comes to UAT anonymous mode.

    It's possible to snoop on your own ADS-B out signal if you are so inclined. The easiest way is to piggyback off of an ADS-B IN receiver (GDL 39, GDL 5x) using Garmin Pilot's ADS-B Compliance Tool. This will show you a human-readable representation of your ADS-B out data. I believe ForeFlight has something similar under Settings.

    If you want to dig deeper into the protocol, you'll need some familiarity with Linux, SDR radios, C++/Python, etc. The dump978 software is primarily what you'll be working with. Probably not suited for beginners.

    As to the underlying question, "Am I actually anonymous when in anonymous mode?" the unfortunately frustrating answer is "It depends." I've done a bit of ground-based testing with a GDL-82 and have had mixed results. I hope to share the results once I have time to finish the testing. What I can say at this point is that I believe it is possible to operate a GDL-82 in anonymous mode in a manner that effectively prevents anyone (including FAA) from positively identifying the user's true ICAO address (a.k.a. hex code) based solely on the transmitted data. There are caveats, however, and I'm still trying to suss out the corner cases. Sadly, it is not as cut and dry as it should be.

  11. #211

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    180_jeff

    Thanks for the link. That was actually a pretty good webinar, although as you said, it really didn't provide a definitive answer. Initially they said your ID is broadcast during the first part of startup, but at the end the FAA guys said they really didn't know if anonymous really meant just that if chatting with the tower in Class D.

    fancypants

    I didn't know about the Garmin Pilot ADS-B Compliance Tool. Thanks for the heads up. I'll be giving that a try. It seems to me if a manufacturer says the anonymous mode transmits a randomized ICAO code, etc., it should do so whenever the switch is in the anonymous mode, not seconds or minutes later. That's probably wishful thinking on my part.

    I've never played with SDR's or Python, and everything else was pretty minimal and a long time ago. My concern is only that I get to see what's really being transmitted so I know the truth. Hopefully Garmin's tool will tell me the truth.

    Interestingly, whenever I've had anonymous set with the GDL-82, I haven't shown up on either ABS-BExchange or FlightRadar24. I've requested a couple of performance reports too, that have come back as unavailable.

  12. #212
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Jones View Post
    .... It seems to me if a manufacturer says the anonymous mode transmits a randomized ICAO code, etc., it should do so whenever the switch is in the anonymous mode, not seconds or minutes later. That's probably wishful thinking on my part. …….
    I've requested a couple of performance reports too, that have come back as unavailable.
    My Tailbeacon will transmit in anonymous mode is it can sense that you're squawking 1200.
    If you're squawking anything else,
    OR if your txp isn't getting pinged to send out that 1200 sqawk,
    it will transmit your tail number.
    The work-around for the not-getting-pinged issue is to turn your txp switch to "test"-
    I always thought that just tested the reply light on the txp face,
    but it does change the ADS-B's signal, according to the Tailbeacon app readout.

    Re not showing up when you request a PAPR, that happened to me a few times.
    Then one time it did show me.
    Apparently I wasn't waiting long enough after the flight to fill out the PAPR request.
    You need to wait an hour or so-- if you do it right away, it'll come back as "not found",
    no matter if you were set on anonymous or not.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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