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ADSB-Getting ready to bite someone in the butt

algonquin said:
From what I have been told , once the ADS-B has been installed and certified to a Tail # , that tail # is required to have ADS-B for ever.
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im not buying that till I see the regulation. For one thing, when my SkyBeacon was acting up, the nice gent from the FAA said my signal would not be accepted by the system. I asked if that meant I couldn’t fly it, and he said no, I just wouldn’t be approved in rule airspace.

Unit has now been replaced, so I now need to do some flying to get my signal “acceptable” again.

Show is the regulation, not some he said.

MTV
 
bob turner said:
Would need to see that in a regulation. It is true that once a generator is installed and recorded on the engine, that aircraft will always and forever need ADS-B in rule airspace. That does not make the ADS-B required in "elsewhere" airspace.
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CFR 91.225 (f)

(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -
(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or
(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.

What a load of crap. I'm certainly not installing it under these conditions. Big brother is watching!!
 
So I read that any aircraft with engine driven electrical system is required to have ads-b out. How can you not install it if you have an alternator? I see some saying they won’t install? I need to think about this very hard on my 11 build. I could probably keep the starter and reasonably get several starts on the O200 without a charging system...I’m going to have a steam panel and iPad so may be doable. Am I adding or subtracting value by not installing in my E-AB build?
 
mvivion said:
Show is the regulation, not some he said.

MTV
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I'm sure they will be writing that regulation soon.

Interesting that flying has been on an uptick over the past few years, partly because of back country flying. Will ADSB put an end to off airport fun?

The implementation of the system from the standpoint of public access is seriously flawed.

T
 
Dan Gervae said:
So I read that any aircraft with engine driven electrical system is required to have ads-b out. How can you not install it if you have an alternator? I see some saying they won’t install? I need to think about this very hard on my 11 build. I could probably keep the starter and reasonably get several starts on the O200 without a charging system...I’m going to have a steam panel and iPad so may be doable. Am I adding or subtracting value by not installing in my E-AB build?
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Very simple. install a wind driven generator. ADS-B and Transponders not required. Just make absolutely certain that you never attach the generator to the engine. Once that is done you have ruined the "not required" forever.

Look here starting at #17: https://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?48723-Solar-Chargers
 
Last edited:
I was going to say what Web said - simply land and turn off, or leave off if outside rule space.
UAvionix equipment has an interesting twist to me, in that the sky and tailbeacon run off nav lights. If you forget to turn on your nav lights it sure seems like plausible deniability. I never use my nav lights during the day.

At the moment I’m still intrigued by the value of ADSB for the safety factor of alerting you to traffic in congested space. I diverted in Potomac airspace and once in glens falls(!) for aircraft with a high closure rate at the same altitude.

But, I would also leave it off when bouncing around with my friends in the woods.

If it became an real enforcement issue against me personally in my lifetime I’d seriously consider getting another non-electric and going back to a wind generator. That worked perfectly.


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
 
Dan Gervae said:
So I read that any aircraft with engine driven electrical system is required to have ads-b out. How can you not install it if you have an alternator? I see some saying they won’t install? I need to think about this very hard on my 11 build. I could probably keep the starter and reasonably get several starts on the O200 without a charging system...I’m going to have a steam panel and iPad so may be doable. Am I adding or subtracting value by not installing in my E-AB build?
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You are only required to have it in specific airspace. Class B, the 30 mile veil of some Class B, Class C, and Class A. If you aren’t going to fly in within the boundaries of that airspace, no requirement to ever install ADSB out! 91.215(b)(3) provides the exception to allow aircraft that don’t now, and never have had an engine driven electrical system to operate within the 30 mile veil, and under Class B or Class C without a transponder. 91.225 (e) and the Chief Counsels letter of interpretation to me extend that same exception to ADSB Out.

Once you install an engine driven alternator or generator, that airplane can no longer qualify for the exceptions of 91.215(b)(3), or 91.225(e).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Your right, what I have is hear-say and this mess is going to be a can of worms for sometime. I don’t think there is a reg on this, they will be shooting from the hip for years to come, only bad part we are down range from the shooters.
 
RoddyM said:
Interesting topic. We are considering flying from NB through Northern Maine all the way to SNF. One aircraft has just mode C and the other, a Cub, has ADS-B In and Out. Our research, so far, looks like we can make the flight right to Lakeland FL from Northern Maine without ADS-B. We’d fly Interstate route 81 generally, at least part of it. Can anyone comment on the viability of doing this? We’d be staying away from big centers irregardless, but would still be landing at airports with FBO’s and fuel. Thanks in advance!
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According to Orlando FSDO 2 weeks ago, ADS-B out will be required to land at KLAL during Sun n Fun unless the aircraft is exempt or you request an authorization to deviate.[FONT=FreeSans, Helmet, sans-serif] https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/adapt/

KLAL is under the 30 mi ring of Tampa class B but I know there are aircraft operating in and out everyday without ADS-B. The FSDO's advice is to file for the deviation using ADAPT in the link, supposedly it is not difficult.
[/FONT]
 
And Jim, It looks like you find no need to fly above 300' along the coast there at lest by this mornings flights.
 
Here is an interesting interactive link to look at on Google Earth. Shows ADSB requirements etc.. I SUGGEST reading the instructions that download first or it will look like it is not working. Go to this link https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace/ Then scroll down the page to the Interactive link the KMZ file. Download it then open it up in Google Earth. Its pretty cool. On the left side of the window click on the instructions and it will tell all. There is also a little map you can click on and it shows visually whats up. I did this on a computer, not sure how it will work on a phone.

Steve
 
Just so you know - we have two J3s with B&C starters, powered by Odyssey PC545 batteries. We get 50-70 starts between charges for at least the first two years of battery life. No wind generator. These aircraft fly almost every day, and get batteries charged every other month. Hardly an inconvenience.

We also have a J4 with Skytek and PC-680, but it has a wind generator. Works fine, but once the battery is fully charged that old generator really starts to wind up. I am thinking about a shrapnel shield . . .

We operate daily in rule airspace. ATC has been known to complain, but they admit we are doing nothing wrong.
 
Even having a starter equipt plane with no battery and using something like a Earth X or other brand jump pack.
The jump pack travels with you back home and either rides along in flight or not.
 
So, enlighten me. If you have an airplane with electric, but never fly above 10,000' class E, Never go in Class B or C, and stay less than 2500' AGL above 10,000', and don't fly out over the water on the coast, What seems to be the problem. I cant seem to find the reg that says you have to have one.
 
SteveE said:
So, enlighten me. If you have an airplane with electric, but never fly above 10,000' class E, Never go in Class B or C, and stay less than 2500' AGL above 10,000', and don't fly out over the water on the coast, What seems to be the problem. I cant seem to find the reg that says you have to have one.
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You are correct. If you don't fly in "rule" airspace, you do NOT have to equip for ADS-B Out.

And if you only fly into rule airspace very occasionally, you might be able to use the ADAPT site to obtain clearance for individual flights into that rule airspace.

If you regularly fly into (or from, as in my case) rule airspace, you'll need to equip for ADS-B Out.
 
SteveE said:
So, enlighten me. If you have an airplane with electric, but never fly above 10,000' class E, Never go in Class B or C, and stay less than 2500' AGL above 10,000', and don't fly out over the water on the coast, What seems to be the problem. I cant seem to find the reg that says you have to have one.
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You don't.
 
No ADS-B out, no transponders in our Cubs. Living in the boonies has its advantages. I do fly with a Stratux, though.
 
A question that has been a curiosity of mine, Non Equipt aircraft staying where we are allowed while on a cross country, Can we get flight following?
 
Spoke with a support guy at uAvionix today.
Their ADS-B, once equipped and operational, can be removed or reinstalled with a logbook entry. Take the unit off the wingtip and put in baggage compartment.....take original nav light and screwdriver from baggage and reinstall nav light( or leave off if daytime).....return screwdriver and add appropriate premade logbook entries.
It makes no sense to me that ADS-B needs to be on when not in rule airspace as it is not required to fly in that airspace.
My intent is not to operate in a gray area, or skirt the regs........but as of now the FARs do not address the removal/reinstallation issue. When that happens I'll deal with it then. In any event, until ADS-B is required everywhere I don't think the FAA can stop an aircraft owner from removing something that is not required for the type flying that they do.
There is no rule airspace in SD or ND and I get nosebleeds above 500'
 
What he says. And yeah, we are happily flying in rule airspace with the non-electric J3s. Socal (at least some of them) wants to talk to us even when we are under class B. We don't want to talk to them because they vector us around their IFR corridors. They have yet to read that part that says IFR aircraft do not have priority in VFR weather.
 
SJ said:
You don't.
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Thank God. I was afraid to ask that myself, and just assumed I would be OK (flying where and how I do) blowing the entire subject off like I have been doing, not even deigning to do something foolish like getting on a FAA website. When I saw the subject addressed in a flying magazine, I'd quickly turn the page, like it had cooties. I do feel sorry for you guys who need to mess with it, sounds like at the very least a minor PITA, and some extra weight and money.
 
SteveE said:
So, enlighten me. If you have an airplane with electric, but never fly above 10,000' class E, Never go in Class B or C, and stay less than 2500' AGL above 10,000', and don't fly out over the water on the coast, What seems to be the problem. I cant seem to find the reg that says you have to have one.
Click to expand...

The only rule airspace you missed is the 30NM "mode c veil" around some of the bigger airports in the country--
you can be inside the veil but outside the class B, don't get bit.
 
hotrod180 said:
The only rule airspace you missed is the 30NM "mode c veil" around some of the bigger airports in the country--
you can be inside the veil but outside the class B, don't get bit.
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That's a good catch... Also "below" Class Bravo is still "required" space, even if it were outside the Mode-C veil (unlikely, but theoretically possible).
 
JimParker256 said:
Also "below" Class Bravo is still "required" space, even if it were outside the Mode-C veil (unlikely, but theoretically possible).
Click to expand...

Now I'm curious if such a scenario exists now. I've never seen it.

sj
 
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