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Thread: ADSB-Getting ready to bite someone in the butt

  1. #1
    Scouter's Avatar
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    ADSB-Getting ready to bite someone in the butt

    I guess I knew this was going to happen , but it still surprised me. At the strip in FL, one of the locals who has a ticket but hasnít flown in20 years gave me a printout of all the places I hVe flown in the past month. Must change to small dots when below 1000 ft or so.
    Just what we needed are several websites that show the world what your up to. Itís really valuable flying down here there is so much traffic, but I will be shutting it off more and more
    ďwasnít me that landed on that state park beach officerĒ

    jim

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  2. #2

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    It may not matter to you, but it isn’t legal to turn it off if you have it installed. The closest you can do is a UAT in anonymous mode. No telling how or whether they’ll enforce it or what the penalty might be, but that’s the law.
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    40m's Avatar
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    Something like 5yrs and or $10000.

    From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be
    found in all corners of the earth."

    Then he made the earth round... and He laughed and laughed and laughed!
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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40m View Post
    Something like 5yrs and or $10000.
    Jim, when they put you in that orange jumpsuit I'll volunteer to exercise your equipment. I was going to say the ones with big tires but I better say only the one with bushwheels

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by 40m View Post
    Something like 5yrs and or $10000.
    FAA infractions are Administrative, not criminal. They can fine you and take certificate action, but unless there is a criminal statute, no jail time.

    I have no idea what the fine might be. Might be worth comparing the fine for operating in rule airspace without ADSB to turning ADSB off outside rule airspace.


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    PerryB's Avatar
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    How is turning it off OUTSIDE rule airspace any kind of violation?
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !
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  7. #7
    40m's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=dgapilot;765831]FAA infractions are Administrative, not criminal. They can fine you and take certificate action, but unless there is a criminal statute, no jail time.



    Not for anything other than conversation and a little twisting of Jim's nuts but heaven forbid there were an accident and during the investigation it was determined ADSB had been disabled I suspect criminal action might be on the table.

    From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be
    found in all corners of the earth."

    Then he made the earth round... and He laughed and laughed and laughed!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PerryB View Post
    How is turning it off OUTSIDE rule airspace any kind of violation?
    It doesn't have to make sense, unfortunately. It's there in 14 CFR 91.225. There are exceptions listed.
    Last edited by StuBob; 02-10-2020 at 10:30 AM. Reason: typo

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    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StuBob View Post
    It doesn't have to make sense, unfortunately. It's there in 14 CFR 91.225. There are exceptions listed.
    Yes, it’s there, and the FAA has stated clearly that they WILL enforce “intentional” violations of this rule. They’ve also apparently stated that the likely penalty will be suspension or revocation.

    And, remember, if you’re within the coverage area, not just the rule airspace, if you turn off ADS-B, there WILL be a record of it. Whether they pursue it or not.......that’s the question, but the tool is there to ruin your day.

    And “anonymous mode” hides your information from the public, but not from the FAA.

    MTV
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    File the FAA blocking form. When you discover the government can't protect your privacy on the internet take action to protect it yourself. Turning it off is the only way to do it.

    This regulation needs to be changed.
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  11. #11
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    I wouldn't have ADS-B if I didn't live 20 miles from rule airspace.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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    I'm sure I get an earful for this. But it won't be the first time.

    Fly out of controlled airspace with your ADS-B. Land and shut down. Give it a few and start up with no ADS-B. Repeat in reverse when returning. Shutting off ADS-B in flight or inside controlled airspace will produce a record of the event. An aircraft operating OUTSIDE of that airspace, without ADS-B, will not raise any curiousity. For now, at least.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

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    You're scaring me although ot biting here yet. Only solace is experimental built to get into very small lakes where the old wild trout are. Those who did similarly, tight lines! Knowing my fishing holes won't he an advantage without aircraft built for a particular mission. Salvalinnis fontinalis is mine.

  14. #14
    40m's Avatar
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    Just pulled up my "ADS-B Performance Monitor Public ADS-B Performance Report" from yesterdays flights. It shows approx 36 minutes of flight of an actual 90+. The first 36 was at an altitude of 1000' the rest in between several landings at no greater than 400'. I suspect if there were more ground stations in my area it might be more revealing of my flight. In the mean time Jim pull up a report and see what is actual. I'm sure Florida will be different than Maine. You might just need to leave those indiscretions at home.

    From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be
    found in all corners of the earth."

    Then he made the earth round... and He laughed and laughed and laughed!

  15. #15
    windy's Avatar
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    ADSB-Getting ready to bite someone in the butt

    Whether you file to not have your ADSB records published on FlightAware (which I have) or whether you have your ADSB set to anonymous, or both, the public can still see your track and location on the app ďOpenADSB.Ē I tracked myself home from Idaho last summer using OpenADSB on my iPhone while my ADSB was in the anonymous mode. Try it for yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by windy View Post
    Whether you file to not have your ADSB records published on FlightAware (which I have) or whether you have your ADSB set to anonymous, or both, the public can still see your track and location on the app “OpenADSB.” I tracked myself home from Idaho last summer using OpenADSB on my iPhone while my ADSB was in the anonymous mode. Try it for yourself.
    I think this is true of ADSBExchange.com as well, although I haven't tested it.
    Idaho drinks more wine per person than any other state in the country.

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    algonquin's Avatar
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    I don’t plan on installing ADSB in any of my planes at this time. If Canada makes it a blanket thing not just in rule airspace I will install it only on the plane I intend on flying there but that’s it.
    If your planning on turning it off do as WW said, also turn off your transponder as that could easily give proof of a violation. Next fall (Aug) I plan on flying my Husky down to NY from AK no ADSB, LOL I’ll write from Leavenworth ,please send care packages

  18. #18
    PerryB's Avatar
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    I'll bake you a cake with a file inside.
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !
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    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    If you takeoff with it off and leave it off for the entire flight, how will they know. Skin paint? I forgot!!
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

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    Interesting topic. We are considering flying from NB through Northern Maine all the way to SNF. One aircraft has just mode C and the other, a Cub, has ADS-B In and Out. Our research, so far, looks like we can make the flight right to Lakeland FL from Northern Maine without ADS-B. We’d fly Interstate route 81 generally, at least part of it. Can anyone comment on the viability of doing this? We’d be staying away from big centers irregardless, but would still be landing at airports with FBO’s and fuel. Thanks in advance!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    Jim, when they put you in that orange jumpsuit I'll volunteer to exercise your equipment. I was going to say the ones with big tires but I better say only the one with bushwheels

    Glenn
    Glen
    thanks to SuperMark, we are down to one plane and the wife is back to smiling at me again. I might need your help in telling her about the amphibs. Come to think of it you can come down and tell her while I head to Dallas for a few days����

    jim
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40m View Post
    Just pulled up my "ADS-B Performance Monitor Public ADS-B Performance Report" from yesterdays flights. It shows approx 36 minutes of flight of an actual 90+. The first 36 was at an altitude of 1000' the rest in between several landings at no greater than 400'. I suspect if there were more ground stations in my area it might be more revealing of my flight. In the mean time Jim pull up a report and see what is actual. I'm sure Florida will be different than Maine. You might just need to leave those indiscretions at home.
    ii think we are not far from the day the local deputy get# a complaint cabou5 noise and then lt turns into s
    a witch hunt
    jim

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    The trip from Seldovia to the states last spring was made in my non electric cub. Obviously no ADSB. During the planning I found transponders are required to cross into the US. There is a transponder waiver that can be obtained on line which permits crossing into the US without a transponder..

    i found that no transponder is required in Canada north of the 54th latitude. It was not clear to me what was required when south of 54 latitude. I spoke directly wit CAA and was told that South of 54 latitude transponders are required in rule airspace only. I have heard only that Canada has delayed implementation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by reliableflyer View Post
    The trip from Seldovia to the states last spring was made in my non electric cub. Obviously no ADSB. During the planning I found transponders are required to cross into the US. There is a transponder waiver that can be obtained on line which permits crossing into the US without a transponder..

    i found that no transponder is required in Canada north of the 54th latitude. It was not clear to me what was required when south of 54 latitude. I spoke directly wit CAA and was told that South of 54 latitude transponders are required in rule airspace only. I have heard only that Canada has delayed implementation.
    There isn’t a requirement for ADS-B in Canada. Not yet anyway. You need mode C in some places like big centers. The bulk of our VFR flying in the lower levels does not require a transponder. We wouldn’t have the fraction the air traffic here verses the lower 48.

  25. #25
    cubdrvr's Avatar
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    Specifically why I'm not installing.....not much rule airspace out here. But this prompts a question: FAR says that ADS-B must be on if the aircraft is equipped. What does it take to uninstall (or unequip) your ADS_B once installed? Can you remove your tail or wingtip ADS-B and do a logbook entry? Then, when needed, reinstall and do a logbook entry?
    That would work for me
    "Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"
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  26. #26
    SuperCub MD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdrvr View Post
    Specifically why I'm not installing.....not much rule airspace out here. But this prompts a question: FAR says that ADS-B must be on if the aircraft is equipped. What does it take to uninstall (or unequip) your ADS_B once installed? Can you remove your tail or wingtip ADS-B and do a logbook entry? Then, when needed, reinstall and do a logbook entry?
    That would work for me
    Back in the charter days,if some avionics was determined to not be working correctly, but was not required for the flight,we pulled the circuit breaker, put a tie wrap on it, and a inop sticker on the avionics. As long as it was not required for a flight it could stay inop until the next required aircraft inspection.

    My old beater non-electric cub is looking better all the time.
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  27. #27
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    From what I have been told , once the ADS-B has been installed and certified to a Tail # , that tail # is required to have ADS-B for ever.
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    Would need to see that in a regulation. It is true that once a generator is installed and recorded on the engine, that aircraft will always and forever need ADS-B in rule airspace. That does not make the ADS-B required in "elsewhere" airspace.
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  29. #29
    cubdrvr's Avatar
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    [/QUOTE]My old beater non-electric cub is looking better all the time.[/QUOTE]

    Is that the same one carrying an axe that weighed more than any avionics you'd want to install ???
    "Sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar"

  30. #30
    SuperCub MD's Avatar
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    Show me a ADSB that can split wood and maybe I'll trade in my AXE.
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  31. #31
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by algonquin View Post
    From what I have been told , once the ADS-B has been installed and certified to a Tail # , that tail # is required to have ADS-B for ever.
    im not buying that till I see the regulation. For one thing, when my SkyBeacon was acting up, the nice gent from the FAA said my signal would not be accepted by the system. I asked if that meant I couldn’t fly it, and he said no, I just wouldn’t be approved in rule airspace.

    Unit has now been replaced, so I now need to do some flying to get my signal “acceptable” again.

    Show is the regulation, not some he said.

    MTV

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    Would need to see that in a regulation. It is true that once a generator is installed and recorded on the engine, that aircraft will always and forever need ADS-B in rule airspace. That does not make the ADS-B required in "elsewhere" airspace.
    CFR 91.225 (f)

    (f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless -
    (1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA when the aircraft is performing a sensitive government mission for national defense, homeland security, intelligence or law enforcement purposes and transmitting would compromise the operations security of the mission or pose a safety risk to the aircraft, crew, or people and property in the air or on the ground; or
    (2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.

    What a load of crap. I'm certainly not installing it under these conditions. Big brother is watching!!
    After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says WTF !
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  33. #33

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    So I read that any aircraft with engine driven electrical system is required to have ads-b out. How can you not install it if you have an alternator? I see some saying they wonít install? I need to think about this very hard on my 11 build. I could probably keep the starter and reasonably get several starts on the O200 without a charging system...Iím going to have a steam panel and iPad so may be doable. Am I adding or subtracting value by not installing in my E-AB build?
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  34. #34
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post

    Show is the regulation, not some he said.

    MTV
    I'm sure they will be writing that regulation soon.

    Interesting that flying has been on an uptick over the past few years, partly because of back country flying. Will ADSB put an end to off airport fun?

    The implementation of the system from the standpoint of public access is seriously flawed.

    T

  35. #35
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    So I read that any aircraft with engine driven electrical system is required to have ads-b out. How can you not install it if you have an alternator? I see some saying they wonít install? I need to think about this very hard on my 11 build. I could probably keep the starter and reasonably get several starts on the O200 without a charging system...Iím going to have a steam panel and iPad so may be doable. Am I adding or subtracting value by not installing in my E-AB build?
    Very simple. install a wind driven generator. ADS-B and Transponders not required. Just make absolutely certain that you never attach the generator to the engine. Once that is done you have ruined the "not required" forever.

    Look here starting at #17: https://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...Solar-Chargers
    Last edited by skywagon8a; 02-11-2020 at 06:38 AM.
    N1PA
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  36. #36
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    I was going to say what Web said - simply land and turn off, or leave off if outside rule space.
    UAvionix equipment has an interesting twist to me, in that the sky and tailbeacon run off nav lights. If you forget to turn on your nav lights it sure seems like plausible deniability. I never use my nav lights during the day.

    At the moment Iím still intrigued by the value of ADSB for the safety factor of alerting you to traffic in congested space. I diverted in Potomac airspace and once in glens falls(!) for aircraft with a high closure rate at the same altitude.

    But, I would also leave it off when bouncing around with my friends in the woods.

    If it became an real enforcement issue against me personally in my lifetime Iíd seriously consider getting another non-electric and going back to a wind generator. That worked perfectly.


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  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    So I read that any aircraft with engine driven electrical system is required to have ads-b out. How can you not install it if you have an alternator? I see some saying they wonít install? I need to think about this very hard on my 11 build. I could probably keep the starter and reasonably get several starts on the O200 without a charging system...Iím going to have a steam panel and iPad so may be doable. Am I adding or subtracting value by not installing in my E-AB build?
    You are only required to have it in specific airspace. Class B, the 30 mile veil of some Class B, Class C, and Class A. If you arenít going to fly in within the boundaries of that airspace, no requirement to ever install ADSB out! 91.215(b)(3) provides the exception to allow aircraft that donít now, and never have had an engine driven electrical system to operate within the 30 mile veil, and under Class B or Class C without a transponder. 91.225 (e) and the Chief Counsels letter of interpretation to me extend that same exception to ADSB Out.

    Once you install an engine driven alternator or generator, that airplane can no longer qualify for the exceptions of 91.215(b)(3), or 91.225(e).


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  38. #38
    algonquin's Avatar
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    Your right, what I have is hear-say and this mess is going to be a can of worms for sometime. I don’t think there is a reg on this, they will be shooting from the hip for years to come, only bad part we are down range from the shooters.
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  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoddyM View Post
    Interesting topic. We are considering flying from NB through Northern Maine all the way to SNF. One aircraft has just mode C and the other, a Cub, has ADS-B In and Out. Our research, so far, looks like we can make the flight right to Lakeland FL from Northern Maine without ADS-B. We’d fly Interstate route 81 generally, at least part of it. Can anyone comment on the viability of doing this? We’d be staying away from big centers irregardless, but would still be landing at airports with FBO’s and fuel. Thanks in advance!
    According to Orlando FSDO 2 weeks ago, ADS-B out will be required to land at KLAL during Sun n Fun unless the aircraft is exempt or you request an authorization to deviate. https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/adapt/

    KLAL is under the 30 mi ring of Tampa class B but I know there are aircraft operating in and out everyday without ADS-B. The FSDO's advice is to file for the deviation using ADAPT in the link, supposedly it is not difficult.

  40. #40

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    And Jim, It looks like you find no need to fly above 300' along the coast there at lest by this mornings flights.

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