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Thread: Experimental 12 Build

  1. #1
    DragginTail01's Avatar
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    Experimental 12 Build

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    Here's another build log, and place I'll be asking the community a lot of questions! If you have any opinions or suggestions during the build here, please feel free to share.

    This is an experimental -12. Consider it a "barn find" / tear down/ build.

    I've had my friends at Dimension Three out of Chico, CA do the cleanup of some could-be-better welds, and some big welds for some of the popular mods. Tail X brace, baggage door, lower extended baggage cathedral.

    More to follow
    Last edited by DragginTail01; 02-01-2020 at 10:19 AM.

  2. #2
    stewartb's Avatar
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    Fun! Gonna do a high performance -12 or leave it closer to stock?

  3. #3
    DragginTail01's Avatar
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    Going high-ish performance! Leaning towards an O-320 with 9:1 compression. Also flaps and VGs.

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    Welcome, your going to need to do more mods to get that mattress to fit.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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  6. #6
    stewartb's Avatar
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    I figured you meant an X brace over your head. Never seen the X in the tail. A box is more common.

    I finished a cool -12 project about 12 years ago. It would have been more fun in the E-AB category. My advice? Use a short engine mount.
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  7. #7
    DragginTail01's Avatar
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    Thanks for that! Are you flying your 12 much? Do you have flaps or VGs?

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    stewartb's Avatar
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    Sold mine 10 years ago. That owner is a member here and he flies the heck out of it. He’d be a good resource to talk to. Not many guys have as much -12 time as Scooter7779H. And look up MikeMCSRepairs’ photo album of the -12 he built for member PA12drvr after he helped finish mine. That’s another very nice -12.

    Yes, it has flaps and VGs, Cub tail, Cub gear, etc. Good performing -12.
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    PerryB's Avatar
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    Be careful, nothing good ever came out of Chico, CA.......
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    skukum12's Avatar
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    One often overlooked mod is what I call a tummy tuck. Take that rounded gingerbread at the bottom of the boot cowl and flatten it out. The reason for this is that in it's normal configuration it is always in the way of landing gear bolt access, which causes scratches and damage to the boot cowl. Also once the boot cowl is flattened down there, it looks a lot better.
    "Always looking up"

  11. #11
    DragginTail01's Avatar
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    Thanks for that- I’m not quite sure what to change here- can you clarify a bit?
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  12. #12

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    Bill Rusk’s build thread hammers home the most important issue—“count ounces for every ounce counts.”

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    Are you going to stay with stock gear or go to cub gear? If you change you will need some more welding.
    DENNY

  14. #14
    DragginTail01's Avatar
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    Denny, can you be more specific? The plan is definitely -18 gear. Thanks

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    I saw 12 gear in the pictures, did you get mounts for the Cabane Vee welded in? If not you might want to get the gear and Cabane Vee before you do to make sure it all fits not all gear is made the same.
    DENNY

  16. #16
    DragginTail01's Avatar
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    Denny,
    As I understand it, it has -18 gear. I'm not a cub pro, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but there is a cabane vee. Take a look at the 1st picture with the mattress in it. What i need to figure out is how to get some aft float fittings to weld on for less than the certified $750/pair!

  17. #17
    DragginTail01's Avatar
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    It appears every Supercruiser that's been well looked after has had the overhead x-brace installed. Are there any conflicting opinions on this?

  18. #18

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    OOOPS I missed that first pic. Is this a Smith airframe? Before you get too far put the wings on and measure all the angles and dangles. If anything is not correct fix it now before fabric.
    DENNY
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  19. #19
    DragginTail01's Avatar
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    I think it could be a Smith airframe, but to honest I don't really know. It was owned by someone at Backcountry Supercubs a while back, but it traded hands quickly and he doesn't remember much about it. I think it was probably a Smith frame that sat in the back of the proverbial shop as it went to TurbineCubs and now Backcountry.

    The wings are Dakota Cub. They're helping setting me up with a flap kit and an overhead johnson bar. Wilco on the angle of the dangle! Thanks for the input, glad to have the expertise of you guys.

  20. #20
    stewartb's Avatar
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    Everyone I know who does a full -12 build does the overhead X brace. It makes the lumps on your head even on both sides.

    Why overhead flap handle? Are you doing a push rod flap system? Doing PStol flaps? That would be a GREAT mod on a -12.

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    i don't think it's a smith 12, i have built 2 exp 12's one was a smith and the second was built at javeron when he was contracted by what was TCOW now BCC. Send me a PM if you need some parts, i still have some left overs. I will second the short mount, X- brace roof, pa-14 dog leg, modify that one to have the removable brace behind the rear seat, 3" ext pa 18 gear and VG's.
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  22. #22
    DragginTail01's Avatar
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    cub12, beautiful example! Great to see a working one with all the mods. What floats do you use?

  23. #23

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    i had one on a set of bilmar 2300's and one on a set of TF 2300's.

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    I have never seen this “X” brace. What purpose does it serve?

    Also, on the very first photo (with the mattress), it looks like there is a left hand clam shell door. Will the bottom half of the door clear the wing lift strut? It doesn’t look like it from the photo.

    I agree that you should completely assemble and rig the plane before you cover anything.

    I vote for using the original length motor mount.

    Good luck with the project.
    Last edited by Paul Heinrich; 02-02-2020 at 10:38 AM. Reason: Insert photo correctly

  25. #25

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    The short mounts make it tight for space between the FW and engine for sure, depending on the type of filter adapter being used a dog bowl in the FW may be necessary, but moving the C of G aft is worth it! To keep the PA12 lines i used a 4" prop extension from Saber manufacturing to bring the prop back out to it's original location but that was purely for looks.
    My 2c only
    Marc
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  26. #26
    stewartb's Avatar
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    Other mods that I did and would recommend- Lower the cables so you can do a full flat floor all the way back. Removable bars for the back seat (all three). I used a metal floor and liked it. Would probably do carbon fiber now but would want a non skid surface. Supercub pilot seat is adjustable and easy to put the battery under it. I liked my dual seaplane doors. Liked the kydex interior. I did D windows and a metal headliner but would do L-21 glass if doing it again. Love it in my new Cub, but I don’t live where it gets hot. Think about how you’ll ventilate the cabin. Not the easiest thing to do in a double door -12.

    Have you thought about moving the rear wing attachments to mimic Supercub AOI? I wanted to do it but it wasn’t practical at the time.

  27. #27
    DragginTail01's Avatar
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    Paul,
    I figured if i throw in enough tubing I could save some money on fabric.

    (kidding...its to beef up the tail for a bigger tailwheel and future-proofing as much as possible, for poor (yours truly) pilot technique in the backcountry)

    Experimenting with the experimental!

  28. #28
    PerryB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skukum12 View Post
    One often overlooked mod is what I call a tummy tuck. Take that rounded gingerbread at the bottom of the boot cowl and flatten it out. The reason for this is that in it's normal configuration it is always in the way of landing gear bolt access, which causes scratches and damage to the boot cowl. Also once the boot cowl is flattened down there, it looks a lot better.
    https://dm2306files.storage.live.com...511&height=849
    That explains something I never quite understood. I've seen 12's that look thin and 12's that look fat. Mines in the thin camp (wish I was). Most of the mods it has were done before I bought it.

  29. #29

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    Im joining this build and have some questions as well. I see above, two of you have advocated for short engine mounts, and one for the stock mount. We are going for a 2200 lb gross with the Javron wing. Trying to do as much research/math as possible to figure out if a short engine mount will allow for a full 2200 pound plane without falling out the back of the cg envelope. opinions here?

  30. #30

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    in related news...the wings on the wall in these pictures are for sale. They are certificated, never covered -12 wings. Since we will be using the Javron kit, we can't use them. Any interest?

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWCruiser View Post
    Trying to do as much research/math as possible to figure out if a short engine mount will allow for a full 2200 pound plane without falling out the back of the cg envelope. opinions here?
    Set up a weight and balance program on a spread sheet in your computer. Try different loading scenarios with both the long and short mount engine location. You have some mandatory ballast which you will be carrying at all times..... A battery! Move it's location around from the original stock location to the engine side of the firewall. You will easily be able to answer your question without making any parts.
    N1PA
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  32. #32
    stewartb's Avatar
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    The benefit of the short mount is centralizing mass. Greater arms fore and aft make a less responsive airplane. For 2200# you’ll be better off adding the heavy stuff in a belly pod. Shove the lighter stuff in baggage. Same as Cub guys do.
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    Just because it is not my money, I would consider a 0360 over with stock pistons over a 0320 with high compression pistons. If you don't already have a motor do a cost comparison. You can run Mogas with 8.5 -1 and the 0360 performance is noticeable once you break ground. I fully agree with Stewart the belly pod changed everything for flying heavy!!!! DENNY
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    Just because it is not my money, I would consider a 0360 over with stock pistons over a 0320 with high compression pistons. If you don't already have a motor do a cost comparison. You can run Mogas with 8.5 -1 and the 0360 performance is noticeable once you break ground. I fully agree with Stewart the belly pod changed everything for flying heavy!!!! DENNY
    We do already have a motor, but are strongly considering the 360 option. Wanna buy a 320 with stock cylinders?

  35. #35
    stewartb's Avatar
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    There’s no replacement for displacement. Especially at heavier weights. My nephew built a hotrod 0-320 and lamented that the 0-360s kicked his butt. If you really plan to fly at 2200# you’ll want the bigger motor. Or a 390.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWCruiser View Post
    We do already have a motor, but are strongly considering the 360 option. Wanna buy a 320 with stock cylinders?
    Sure, what do you have?

  37. #37
    Scooter7779h's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Sold mine 10 years ago. That owner is a member here and he flies the heck out of it. He’d be a good resource to talk to. Not many guys have as much -12 time as Scooter7779H. And look up MikeMCSRepairs’ photo album of the -12 he built for member PA12drvr after he helped finish mine. That’s another very nice -12.

    Yes, it has flaps and VGs, Cub tail, Cub gear, etc. Good performing -12.
    That’s me. Owned and Been flying -12s since 1978. Stewart’s 53M build I have now is a superb plane and fits my mission perfectly.


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    PA-12 fan
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  38. #38
    stewartb's Avatar
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    That’s a very special airplane!
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  39. #39

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    That is not a good flying airplane, it is a GREAT flying airplane!! I won this year at Skwentna because he did not make it in to spank me!! That picture is of a 24/7 365 day of the year Alaska plane/pilot.
    DENNY
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  40. #40

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    Couple of thoughts / anecdotal stuff without the knowledge or experience of the other posters:

    - FWIW, unless you really anticipate a need for the left-side door / access, I wouldn't put it in. Nothing particularly wrong with it, but I've used mine more to do stuff like replace battery, sweep out the floor, etc than any real substantive purpose.
    - The flat floor concept is great
    - AOSS on 18-Gear is a great setup and helps with the pilot-induced rough-ish landings. I'm unfortunately more familiar with those than I want to be.
    - The upped GW is great; would go along with the others and recommend the -360 for a variety of reasons, including that there is no substitute for displacement.
    - Make sure the tailcone cluster (is that the right term?) is exposed after covering...helps that area to dry out.
    - If you're in a hot area, and if you go with a lot of "glass" on the "cabin" planning, you'll need ventilation.
    - 18 tailfeathers are a necessity and a very positive difference
    - Since you have the weight, upper and lower extended baggage are very nice to have.
    - If you can go with some sort of adjustable / constant speed prop, there's some significant benefit to that.
    - VG's / Flaps are a game-changer.

    The old saying that the best mod is burning more av-gas is very true; I think the challenge is always for the pilot to fly to the limits of the aircraft. In my case, I can't routinely fly to the plane's limits....and building a rip-snorter of an experimental -12 may lead to an identifiable variance between pilot and plane ability, but it would be great fun to work on closing that gap.
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