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Thread: PA-12 cabin heater box and other firewall forward jobs :)

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    The PA12 I took pictures of went home on Saturday. I will have to see if I have any more pictures of the install. One hose goes to an intake scoop on the bottom cowl. The other is to the heat muff on the Sutton exhaust.

    I don't think the original baffles are the best design but the O-235 is a low compression engine that normally doesn't even have an oil cooler. Operated one well past 2600 hours at which it wore out the rings and started using oil. Still had compressions in the 70s and inside of the engine looked great.
    Thanks Steve, the connections to the heater box itself are indeed the fresh air from the cowl and the heater one from the heat shroud, it's the pressurisation one from the front cowl baffle to the "inlet" hole on the heater shroud on the cabin heater side that I'm trying to accomodate. In your (excellent) photos I can see the front baffle air inlet in picture 4 and the scat hose snaking back under the engine, presumably to the heat shroud and it's getting this intake on my currently flat front baffles that I'm trying to figure. Maybe i should add a duct or something to the flat plate?
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  2. #42
    flybynite's Avatar
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    Late to the party, as usual.
    Original O-235 baffles, exhaust and muffler/heat box pics

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    On picture 1, the long scat tube goes to the muffler, left intake on the top for the carb heat. The scat tube shown attached to the muffler pic goes to the airbox for heated carb air.
    On picture 3, the large scat tube goes to the intake on the heat box for fresh cabin air, the small scat tube is blast air for the generator.
    There is another air intake that attaches to the heat muff just above the exhaust tube in the last picture.

    Wayne
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  3. #43
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Lycoming install drawing.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
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  4. #44

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    PA-12 cabin heater box and other firewall forward jobs :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Lycoming install drawing.
    Iíve pretty much finished the fabrication of a new centre panel for the back baffle and can 100% agree with an earlier baffle post which mentioned how time consuming this is

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    Steve, in your photos there looks to be some mastic sealant or something between the bottom of the rear baffle and the engine, is this normal practice and what actually is the sealant used?


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  5. #45
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I use RTV to seal all the gaps that air can escape. I want all the air going through the cooling fins.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I use RTV to seal all the gaps that air can escape. I want all the air going through the cooling fins.
    Thanks Steve, is there a particular brand you use? I've done some initial research and there's a lot to choose from. Does the RTV weld itself on to the engine and bulkheads etc, or can it be peeled off? Cheers P
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  7. #47
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    This is what I use. Yes, it peals off when needed.
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    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
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  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    This is what I use. Yes, it peals off when needed.
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    Thanks Steve, they look like single tube products and used with those heavy duty type metal plunger things?
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  9. #49
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Yes but it comes in squeeze tubes as well.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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  10. #50

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    Thought I was doing really well today, tracked down a set of used baffles, intercylinder and outer baffles and painted and installed the inter cylinder ones and felt I was pretty much there

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    But then had a chat with a couple of Cub drivers in the club house and they said they also had a v shaped baffle on the upper cylinder fins too?!!! I donít see this in the parts catalogue? Do other people use this?!!


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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philly5G View Post
    Thought I was doing really well today, tracked down a set of used baffles, intercylinder and outer baffles and painted and installed the inter cylinder ones and felt I was pretty much there

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    But then had a chat with a couple of Cub drivers in the club house and they said they also had a v shaped baffle on the upper cylinder fins too?!!! I don’t see this in the parts catalogue? Do other people use this?!!
    These pictures look correct.
    N1PA
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  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    These pictures look correct.
    THANK YOU skywagon8a!!! This is what the O235 parts catalogue shows, hence thinking I was there!! This is becoming a real struggle to be honest, I just wanted to tidy up the baffles when adding the new engine, but it's become a LOT more than that!! My original plan was just to replace the felt with rubber and repaint them, I now find myself becoming an aerodynamicist specialising in contained airflow!!

    This sketch may help explain where I am:

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    The top sketch shows the baffles as they were, with the back and side baffles pretty easy and self explanatory, I've remade the top centre section of the rear baffle as it was full of holes and not stopping the airflow in any way. The front "baffle" was just a flat piece of metal from the bottom of the cowl opening to just past the mid point of the cylinders.

    I've remade the front baffle as in the 2nd sketch to redirect the airflow to the middle of cylinders 1 and 2 and up into the plenum chamber and also fitted the lycoming intercylinder baffles as per parts catalog and photos above.

    The 3rd sketch is a combination of my chat with the other Cub guys I met yesterday and also after reading the EAA guide on "how to baffle your Lycoming" and it shows a curved baffle in front of cylinders 1&2 which is linked to the inter cylinder baffle and the rear baffle and although it doesn't show this, the Cub Drivers said they had an additional inter cylinder baffle under the cylinder heads. I've checked the PA-12 parts catalogue and I see that Univair part #U10923-000 looks like the part?

    I can see why the front curved baffle might/would be needed, as otherwise there's no cooling air to the bottom of cylinders 1&2 as the ramp cowl baffle is throwing the air up into the plenum and i don't see how this is being directed under the front cylinders, other than the intercylinder baffles?? But this isn't shown in any of the baffles kits, Lycoming or Piper parts catalogues?!!

    Any definitive steers on this will be very gratefully received
    Last edited by Philly5G; 02-22-2020 at 06:45 AM.
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  13. #53
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Phil, You are replacing an original model engine with another original model engine. Remember when Piper originally certified this airplane/engine combination they did cooling flight tests. The engine would have had thermocouples on all cylinders and likely in more than one location on each cylinder. As well as other locations on the engine. When Piper finalized the baffle design, it met the cooling parameters and then the CAA (now FAA) certified the PA-12. Unless you or someone here can document a deficiency to Piper's baffle design, I would just repair or duplicate the original. Not following the original would place you in the position of having to run cooling tests to verify that you caused no harm by making the alterations.

    A lot of the comments here come from people who changed their engines from the original to something else.
    N1PA
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  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Phil, You are replacing an original model engine with another original model engine. Remember when Piper originally certified this airplane/engine combination they did cooling flight tests. The engine would have had thermocouples on all cylinders and likely in more than one location on each cylinder. As well as other locations on the engine. When Piper finalized the baffle design, it met the cooling parameters and then the CAA (now FAA) certified the PA-12. Unless you or someone here can document a deficiency to Piper's baffle design, I would just repair or duplicate the original. Not following the original would place you in the position of having to run cooling tests to verify that you caused no harm by making the alterations.

    A lot of the comments here come from people who changed their engines from the original to something else.
    Thanks sw8a. My buddy also has a PA-12 with an O235-C1 and he has the ramped cowl baffle and also the outer cylinder intercylinder baffle.

    Mine has/had the straight through baffle as I described, both of us have adequate cooling.

    I need the ramp baffle so I can duct off fresh air so I can fit the cabin heater (which came with my aircraft but uninstalled) if I didnít,
    Iíd just refit my original front baffles.

    Can you, or anyone else please tell me if the flat plate ramp baffle, the inter cylinder baffles and the back and side baffles are all thatís needed to make the ramp baffles layout work?


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  15. #55
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I don't have access to a stock PA-12, so can't help you further.
    N1PA
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  16. #56

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    You really need to put a 4 cylinder EGT/CHT in to know what is going on. Each plane/engine is different. I spent a few years fine tuning the baffling on my cub and it has really paid off in lowered CHT'S. Without proper instrumentation you don't know what you don't know. When you do get it done you will see a lot of people put RTV on the front baffle by the cylinder. No not let that RTV between the fins.
    DENNY
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  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I don't have access to a stock PA-12, so can't help you further.
    Interestingly the Univair PA-12 parts catalogue shows the ramp flat blade front baffles.


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  18. #58

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    PA-12 cabin heater box and other firewall forward jobs :)

    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    You really need to put a 4 cylinder EGT/CHT in to know what is going on. Each plane/engine is different. I spent a few years fine tuning the baffling on my cub and it has really paid off in lowered CHT'S. Without proper instrumentation you don't know what you don't know. When you do get it done you will see a lot of people put RTV on the front baffle by the cylinder. No not let that RTV between the fins.
    DENNY
    Believe it or not I spent time this morning researching 4 channel CHT/EGTs

    The aircraft came with a CHT gauge that wasnít reading, I got a replacement sender and installed it on #4 and it always climbed to and remained at 180 C, which I was happy with and now Iím in a world of uncertainty and worry

    Which front baffles type do you have? and do you have the wrap around baffle on #1 and #2?




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  19. #59

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    My front baffles are flat to the barrel of the cylinder with ramps at the heads #1 is about 1/2 inch taller at head than #2. At 2400 RPM level flight 2,3,4 are within 10 degrees of each other with # 1 being 10-15 degrees cooler. In full throttle climb #2 and #1 CHT's climb while sometimes #3 and 4 will even drop. You really need to see all 4 to know what is going on. A single EGT/CHT is kind of like tits on a boar hog, they got them but they don't do much good. I had the stock front baffle and use aluminized tape on the front cylinders over a few years adjusting as need for front/rear/side to side temp control. I fly from -30 to +90 degrees so it took a few years to figure out right hight with tape then I made my ramps a bit shorter. Most don't go to all that effort simply use stock baffle and add tape to head as needed. I will see if I can find a pic to post.
    DENNY
    Last edited by DENNY; 02-22-2020 at 05:01 PM.
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  20. #60

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    Ramps.
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  21. #61

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    Every plane seems to be a bit different so your results/ramps may not be the same. This is a 160 hp cub.
    DENNY
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  22. #62

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    It is pretty easy to start with the stock ones and use the aluminized tape to adjust/test than make changes after a year or two of test flying. Everything effects the temps, carb, exhaust, timing, prop, altitude, speed, ambient temps, ect. I tried to roll the top edge of the ramp so it would encourage air to follow down between the front fins. Stock baffle had just a simple vertical bend.
    DENNY
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  23. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    It is pretty easy to start with the stock ones and use the aluminized tape to adjust/test than make changes after a year or two of test flying. Everything effects the temps, carb, exhaust, timing, prop, altitude, speed, ambient temps, ect. I tried to roll the top edge of the ramp so it would encourage air to follow down between the front fins. Stock baffle had just a simple vertical bend.
    DENNY
    Wow!!!! Thank you for all this Denny!! Itís REALLY helped me to put this stuff into perspective and made me realise itís an experiment and not either/or thank you

    Couple of questions please; how far back does the level part of the front baffle go? And how far round the cylinder does the rolled top edge vertical baffle go and have you got both the inner and outer intercylinder baffles?


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  24. #64

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    The front baffles on a cub sit higher than the original one in you picture it go's back to the head and barrel fins. Do a google search and you will see what they look like. Most cusbs have an upturned area in front of the head, and flat back to the barrel. The rolled edge is just 3/8 -1/2 lip kind of an afterthought as I was making them. Intercylinder baffles are similar to yours. I use the RTV to help seal any open areas but like I said do not get it between the fins. Red will get you off the ground 15ft sooner than black RTV

    Found some pics of original baffle and first flat front upgrade.
    DENNY
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  25. #65

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    The goal is to get the air through the fins, big bypass gaps or holes, don't help. I even put aluminized tape on the underside of the cowl hinge to seal the hinge gaps. 12s don't have to worry about that usually.
    DENNY

  26. #66

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    Also notice on the front bottom cylinders in post 42 how they have metal coming down around the barrel with a rod that ties into lower baffling. On a cub that ties into the rear baffle. Not sure how all of your is set up. Like I said seems like every plane is different.
    DENNY

  27. #67
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    In full throttle climb #2 and #1 CHT's climb while sometimes #3 and 4 will even drop. You really need to see all 4 to know what is going on.
    DENNY
    This can be attributed to the angle of the butterfly valve in the carburetor and the swirling action of the fuel/air mixture downstream in Lycoming engines. With partial throttle there is uneven F/A distribution to the cylinders. With full throttle the F/A mixture is more evenly distributed among all the cylinders. Thus you will see the temperature differences between #1 & #2 vary when compared to #3 & #4 between partial throttle positions and wide open.

    This can be demonstrated by observing the relationships of the EGTs at low altitude. Then above 5000 feet when the throttle is wide open to maintain the same power setting. You will notice that a different cylinder's EGT will peak first.
    N1PA
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  28. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by flybynite View Post
    Late to the party, as usual.
    Original O-235 baffles, exhaust and muffler/heat box pics

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    On picture 1, the long scat tube goes to the muffler, left intake on the top for the carb heat. The scat tube shown attached to the muffler pic goes to the airbox for heated carb air.
    On picture 3, the large scat tube goes to the intake on the heat box for fresh cabin air, the small scat tube is blast air for the generator.
    There is another air intake that attaches to the heat muff just above the exhaust tube in the last picture.

    Wayne
    Thank you Wayne, in conjunction with the further research I've done and later replies in the thread, these pics have become really really useful In the 3rd pic, it's looking like the rear inner under cylinder baffle's tie rod is connecting directly to the front baffle's curved under cylinder baffle and the tie rod is basically going between/under the cylinder fins?

    Also, in the heat shroud pic, one of the connecting adapters is angled beyond 90 degrees, does this affect the airflow much, from the speed and volume angles? If not that will be great news as the cabin heater box I'm about to (re) install is very near the heat shroud and the scat tubing is struggling to make the bend
    Last edited by Philly5G; 02-23-2020 at 10:34 AM.
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  29. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    Also notice on the front bottom cylinders in post 42 how they have metal coming down around the barrel with a rod that ties into lower baffling. On a cub that ties into the rear baffle. Not sure how all of your is set up. Like I said seems like every plane is different.
    DENNY
    So is that tie rod bypassing the standard Lycoming intercylinder baffle and just linking the front and rear baffles?
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  30. #70

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    I don't have any pictures but my cub is not set up like the one above.
    DENNY

  31. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    I don't have any pictures but my cub is not set up like the one above.
    DENNY
    These pics do seem VERY much the setup of my buddy's PA-12 at last all is becoming clear!! I've found an MGL 4 channel CHT/EGT gauge and also now know that the O235 is equipped with a thermocouple fitting which means I wouldn't have to modify the HT grommets to route the gasket fittings I was expecting!!
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  32. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philly5G View Post
    WOW!!!! THANK YOU for these Steve!!! These are pretty much exactly the clean, fresh and well-ordered look I'll aiming at!!! I'm loving the pic of the straight fitting HT leads being routed via the Rocker cover bolt clips, that's answered Question #3 PERFECTLY!!!

    I can see the heater box is mounted pretty much the same place on the firewall as mine/the standard one(?) but what is on the other side of the firewall? Just a single hole that the hot air blasts through? or some kind of tubing setup to distribute the heat?

    The baffles look fantastic, what kind of material is the non metal stuff?

    Thanks again
    Thanks again for these pics Steve, theyíve been a brilliant resource to refer to

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