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Thread: Idaho backcountry instruction

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    cub yellow's Avatar
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    Idaho backcountry instruction

    A friend is looking for someone well acquainted with central/ southern Idaho Backcountry airstrips that would be willing to ride around in the back of a supercub to pass on his/ her experience. This person doesn't need to be a CFI just experienced with most of these airstrip arrivals and departures. Any ideas are appreciated. Thanks.

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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    What's not to like about learning by doing? They did. Yes I'm older and that's how we learned There might be an easier quicker way today. My millennial pilot friends are all about this instructional technique.

    Gary
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    I agree Gary, Get out there and burn some gas, take it easy and learn as you go. When I got my first Cub as a 50hr pilot my neighbor who had a single pilot 135 operation marked out some LZ's on a Topo map in the Talkeetna Mtns. and said; "be careful and don't hurt yourself." There were no Bush Flying training courses back then. I think my prep was reading Stick and Rudder and Wager with the Wind I guess I'm sounding like an old man now...

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    Dick Williams in Salmon. He's a member here.
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    What your friend is asking for amounts to Initial Operating Experience. All 135 operations pair their new pilots with more experienced pilots for a certain amount of IOE, and in some parts of the country it’s with the specific intent of showing the new guy how to read the conditions and make successful approaches and departures under the varying conditions.

    In the Part 91 world I think a guy could learn a lot more and potentially avoid some bad situations by having an experienced person in the plane with them. Sometimes, when you’re just starting out, you can awfully close to the edge without realizing it. With an experienced person in the plane they might be able to help the new guy recognize the situation earlier. And in these forums more experienced pilots have discuss their approach to sizing up a situation, and several times I’ve said to myself “That’s a good technique; I wouldn’t have come up with that on my own.”

    I can think of a couple of times when the guy in back was WAY more experienced than I, and even when they were too polite to give me the dope slap that I deserved I still learned from them. Have your buddy keep looking - he’ll find some folks who can help.
    Speedo
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    cub yellow's Avatar
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    Thanks... All very good advice !
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo View Post
    What your friend is asking for amounts to Initial Operating Experience. All 135 operations pair their new pilots with more experienced pilots for a certain amount of IOE, and in some parts of the country it’s with the specific intent of showing the new guy how to read the conditions and make successful approaches and departures under the varying conditions.

    In the Part 91 world I think a guy could learn a lot more and potentially avoid some bad situations by having an experienced person in the plane with them. Sometimes, when you’re just starting out, you can awfully close to the edge without realizing it. With an experienced person in the plane they might be able to help the new guy recognize the situation earlier. And in these forums more experienced pilots have discuss their approach to sizing up a situation, and several times I’ve said to myself “That’s a good technique; I wouldn’t have come up with that on my own.”

    I can think of a couple of times when the guy in back was WAY more experienced than I, and even when they were too polite to give me the dope slap that I deserved I still learned from them. Have your buddy keep looking - he’ll find some folks who can help.
    Sent from my VS988 using SuperCub.Org mobile app

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    mvivion's Avatar
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    I’d second Dick Williams or Amy Hoover. It would be a great idea to get a copy of their new book “Mountain, Canyon and Backcountry Flying” first and read it.

    I too agree that flying with a knowledgeable person is very helpful. I recall many “checkrides” which turned out to actually be flight instruction, and expanded my horizons safely and smoothly.

    MTV
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    Every year, back there, some gott ya's get em. Don't let em get ya! Before GPS, navigating was a big deal. Seldom did a newcomer find the strip they were looking for. Proficient pilots with some mountain flying savey shouldn't have a problem.

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    Might be more beneficial to follow another plane/pilot with experience and knowledge of the area.
    Good position reporting, canyon etiquette and approaches to strips can often be better learned by following, observing, listening then doing.
    Talking someone into letting you follow them around would probably be easier than convincing someone to get in the back of your plane, unless “for hire” plenty of instructors around that will do that.
    If the person in question is looking for someone to bail them out on a botched approach, maybe get two place instruction elsewhere and become more proficient with slow flight, energy management and unusual approaches before entering canyon environment.
    Last edited by Oliver; 01-30-2020 at 10:30 AM.
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    Have you considered this place?

    https://mountaincanyonflying.com/

  11. #11
    cub yellow's Avatar
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    Thanks JWE, Yes consideration was given to that but the $ 2950.00 for a 2 day fundamentals class is just too much!!
    Quote Originally Posted by JWE View Post
    Have you considered this place?

    https://mountaincanyonflying.com/
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    Agree that's a bit pricey. But they also offer Mountain / Canyon flight instruction at $375 per hour.
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  13. #13
    cub yellow's Avatar
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    I totally agree with the IOE thing!!
    The guy is a 3000 hour commercial rated pilot with probably 2500 hours of tailwheel time and is very well acquainted with his cub, but just wants to build some confidence so he can return to camp, hunt and fish.
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo View Post
    What your friend is asking for amounts to Initial Operating Experience. All 135 operations pair their new pilots with more experienced pilots for a certain amount of IOE, and in some parts of the country it’s with the specific intent of showing the new guy how to read the conditions and make successful approaches and departures under the varying conditions.

    In the Part 91 world I think a guy could learn a lot more and potentially avoid some bad situations by having an experienced person in the plane with them. Sometimes, when you’re just starting out, you can awfully close to the edge without realizing it. With an experienced person in the plane they might be able to help the new guy recognize the situation earlier. And in these forums more experienced pilots have discuss their approach to sizing up a situation, and several times I’ve said to myself “That’s a good technique; I wouldn’t have come up with that on my own.”

    I can think of a couple of times when the guy in back was WAY more experienced than I, and even when they were too polite to give me the dope slap that I deserved I still learned from them. Have your buddy keep looking - he’ll find some folks who can help.
    Sent from my VS988 using SuperCub.Org mobile app

  14. #14
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    Idaho backcountry instruction

    Ditto what Oliver said. Have your friend do some “monkey-see, monkey-do” training. Rather than having two fat asses in one heavy plane, have him fly his own plane and follow along with someone in their own plane who is familiar with the Idaho backcountry and watch what they do, then do it himself. Before he goes to the Idaho backcountry, he should master his homework assignment to be able to hit his landing spot at the right airspeed. Every time.

    P.S. buy Galen Hanselman’s Fly Idaho book & read it thoroughly. Start with the easy airstrips & work up to the harder ones.
    Last edited by windy; 01-31-2020 at 11:31 AM.
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    cub yellow's Avatar
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    Thanks Windy, I agree.

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    Monkey see monkey do did not work for Todd Simmons at Dewey Moore. A really quality briefing might have helped.
    Idaho drinks more wine than any other state.
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  17. #17
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    True! Everyone needs to be on the same page ! It seems a good briefing could have prevented that.

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    Good quality flight instruction isn’t cheap.

    Neither are airplanes.

    MTV
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    I highly recommend Lori MacNichol-Gregory

    https://mountaincanyonflying.com/

    I took training from her in 2015 and it was excellent.

    You are paying for training that trains the pilot in RISK management in the back country. Training is just as important as any ALASKA mod you can put on your airplane.

    I already had back country experience and I leaned even more with the training.

    Lori is an excellent instructor, a very nice lady, and fun to fly with.

    Her school has even trained Special Ops pilots in back country flying.

    You can not go wrong with her training.

    Remember-“Experience” “It is where you get the lesson first and the course later!” “If you survive.”

    It is money well spent and may save your life.


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    If the pilot fears to test his skills with the elements, he has chosen the wrong profession.....Lindbergh
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    cub yellow's Avatar
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    Bradley G thanks. I appreciate your input !

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    I agree, although Amy doesn’t take on many new students anymore. If one was to want her tutelage, contacting now would be advised. She books sometimes years in advance!
    Dick is semi-retired, but maybe available.
    Either way, knowing ahead of time the info in their book would serve someone well, as would being able to land within 10’ of intended spot on speed and attitude in all weight/cg conditions.
    As someone suggested, have your friend get a copy of Galen’s Fly Idaho (www.flyidaho.com ) book set in addition to the Idaho Aviation Assoc chart https://idahoaviation.com/item.php?id=40 . Note Big Creek’s data is wrong on that chart.
    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    I’d second Dick Williams or Amy Hoover. It would be a great idea to get a copy of their new book “Mountain, Canyon and Backcountry Flying” first and read it.

    I too agree that flying with a knowledgeable person is very helpful. I recall many “checkrides” which turned out to actually be flight instruction, and expanded my horizons safely and smoothly.

    MTV
    Last edited by JohnnyR; 02-19-2020 at 04:38 PM.
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    MTV- EXACTLY! Experience does not come cheap, don't expect people to teach all that for free.

    Bradly G- good idea and suggestions.

    If your friend wanted to come up here, I would be glad to fly around for a few days with him, and we could trade between me riding, and me flying with him following.

    Not Idaho, but some great mountain and river bar flying around here. I can not get the same places with the Maule that the cub will go, but super tight spots are not needed for this.

    Big difference between here and there is DA. Where I often fly at DA below sea level, times and temperatures change quick down there and need to be considered every landing.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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    There is a huge difference between "back country " flying and mountain flying. Mountain training is a must. I would go discover the town of McCall and get some life changing instruction.
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  24. #24
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    Thanks everyone. Friend has found some good instruction in the Idaho Backcountry. Thanks for all the great suggestions.

    Bp
    Quote Originally Posted by Fortysix12 View Post
    There is a huge difference between "back country " flying and mountain flying. Mountain training is a must. I would go discover the town of McCall and get some life changing instruction.
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    Having had a lot of hand holding from my IA (yearly 4 day fly outs) and friends while learning to fly off field, I can say it has saved my plane and possibly my live more than once. I try to pass this on whenever possible be it in the back of a plane or leading a group through the mountains. Last year I had the opportunity to fly with some pilots that had literally never tied down their aircraft because everywhere they usually went had a hanger available. They had very good pilot skills, but simple things like proper tie downs/ropes/safety gear for the backcountry was new to them. We loose too many new pilots up here every year to simple mistakes, just had a 172 flip at lake George because a young CFI was under the impression you could safely land a nose wheel in snow. Most likely saw ski tracks and judged depth from that and last year lake was blown clean and you could land most any wheel plane. If he had a pilot with some winter flying knowledge with him it could have saved a plane.
    Good flight instruction from a good instructor is dirt cheap compaired to burning lots of gas on your own developing bad habits in the mountains!!
    DENNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    Having had a lot of hand holding from my IA (yearly 4 day fly outs) and friends while learning to fly off field, I can say it has saved my plane and possibly my live more than once. I try to pass this on whenever possible be it in the back of a plane or leading a group through the mountains. Last year I had the opportunity to fly with some pilots that had literally never tied down their aircraft because everywhere they usually went had a hanger available. They had very good pilot skills, but simple things like proper tie downs/ropes/safety gear for the backcountry was new to them. We loose too many new pilots up here every year to simple mistakes, just had a 172 flip at lake George because a young CFI was under the impression you could safely land a nose wheel in snow. Most likely saw ski tracks and judged depth from that and last year lake was blown clean and you could land most any wheel plane. If he had a pilot with some winter flying knowledge with him it could have saved a plane.
    Good flight instruction from a good instructor is dirt cheap compaired to burning lots of gas on your own developing bad habits in the mountains!!
    DENNY
    A very well respected pilot did my company check out out west a few years back, and said it as well as I have ever hears: Different sandboxes require different techniques and knowledge. You can be great flying at home, but when you go to another sandbox you need to learn the procedures and tricks that work there.

    All mountain flying has similarities, but there are things to learn specific to each. Idaho gets hot in the afternoon, and gets traffic. The Brooks Range can have wind gusts through a pass in excess of 50 its... We get cold air coming off glaciers here causing downdrafts at inopportune times.

    Getting instruction or local knowledge is always a good thing.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    I’d second Dick Williams or Amy Hoover. It would be a great idea to get a copy of their new book “Mountain, Canyon and Backcountry Flying” first and read it.....MTV
    FWIW Amy Hoover is scheduled to be one f the speakers at the NW Aviation show in Puyallup WA this weekend.

    https://www.washington-aviation.org/schedule.html
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    FWIW Amy Hoover is scheduled to be one f the speakers at the NW Aviation show in Puyallup WA this weekend.

    https://www.washington-aviation.org/schedule.html
    Yes, and she'll also be speaking at the Montana Aviation Conference in Great Falls, on the 27, 28, and 29th of February.

    Lots of other good topics and speakers, including Todd Simmons and Richard McSpadden.

    Hope to see some of you there.

    MTV

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    Quote Originally Posted by windy View Post
    Ditto what Oliver said. Have your friend do some “monkey-see, monkey-do” training. Rather than having two fat asses in one heavy plane, have him fly his own plane and follow along with someone in their own plane who is familiar with the Idaho backcountry and watch what they do, then do it himself. Before he goes to the Idaho backcountry, he should master his homework assignment to be able to hit his landing spot at the right airspeed. Every time.

    P.S. buy Galen Hanselman’s Fly Idaho book & read it thoroughly. Start with the easy airstrips & work up to the harder ones.
    Yep, also learn your limits, if you can only get into and out of a 800' strip, don't go into one that is 750' with no go around...

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