Buying an airplane

Flying is not cheap. If you go into this with a cheap mindset, you will forever be dissatisfied.

Lots of $30,000 planes that are excellent to fly. Champs are better short field than an ECA citabria, and more roomy then the J-3. Pacers are larger, but not as easy to land, and less stable and faster than the champ/j-3s.

Every plane has it's weakness and is a compromise. there is a reason many folks own more than one plane.

For all you are wanting to do, a couple things come to mind: If you want STOL that is easy. If you are headed off to gravel bars, beaches and off airport action you have lots to learn beyond just how to control the plane... and that costs money in repairs.

If you are headed off airport, buy the less expensive plane, learn on it and reduce your risk of loss. When you get experience move up to nicer planes.

If you just want to use the midfield grass and play, find a Bearhawk and be done with it. They come up for sale now and again, and are great planes that you can do most of the work on yourself.

Just my opinion

Everybody loves new Corvettes but in reality the used Camry will do.

I believe that Harveys has a Champ on the rental line.
You can do your BFR in that (BTW they call them flight reviews now), get up to speed on tailwheel flying, and get your sea legs back under you.
Maybe then rent a Cessna or similar, & think about if you want side x side or tandem, tube & fabric or spam can, etc.
If you decide to go ahead & buy something, I'd suggest starting small--
I know plenty of people who own Luscombes, C140's, Champs, J3's, etc
and get just as much or more fun out of flying them as people with bigger spendier airplanes.
Plus

Champs and Citabrias are probably best for dimensionally challenged people. And they are true aviation bargains.

You know....

You can buy TWO airplanes with $125K. One for you and one for your wife!

behindpropellers said:

You know....

You can buy TWO airplanes with $125K. One for you and one for your wife!

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That can happen

I have a cub clone and C-182 for Sunday go to meeting and have less than 80K invested.

I have a J3 and a Super Decathlon. Initial investment total $43,500. Both! But I cheated - bought the J3 in 1962.

Some 20 years go, I had the resources and the understanding wife, to get back into General Aviation after a 25 year absence. I owned 2 "work planes" back in the mid '70s (J-5 w/low volume spray system and a new Cessna Ag-Truck). Never owned a personal fun airplane..
My first 10 years back, I bought and sold 7 airplanes, trying to find what tripped my trigger..(won't say I made money, but sold them all for more than I paid for them. That my friend is the key).
After those 7, I went into a partnership with the biggest "dipsh*t" on the planet :smile:, (still my best friend and airplane partner today). He convinced me to sell my L21 SuperCub and buy a F'N HUSKY!! Two Huskies later (he wrecked the first one:smile we bought another L21 SuperCub..
Ten years later we have upgraded as resources allowed. We have developed a relationship with local AP/IA folks that work with us on maintainence stuff and the resources on this Forum (Steve Pierce alone, has saved me a ton of cash) are invaluable.
Aircraft ownership is a learning experience. It's prudent to reduce the learning costs to have the most resources to spend on "THE airplane".
Go to your local airport, make friends, develop relationships, ask questions, ask for opinions (you don't need to except them, but be respectful), learn as much as you can... NEVER BUY AN AIRPLANE YOU CAN'T SELL FOR MORE THAN YOU PAID...!!!:smile:

Taledrger said:

….won't say I made money, but sold them all for more than I paid for them. That my friend is the key.....
…..NEVER BUY AN AIRPLANE YOU CAN'T SELL FOR MORE THAN YOU PAID...!!!:smile:

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Good advice, but IMHO hard to actually follow.
About the best I've ever done is break even.

All the experimental stuff sounds great but in reality can cost much more than a flying certified aircraft. A kit can be only 1/3 the price of the finished aircraft, does it include engine, prop, wheels, instruments, ect. You really need to find a good IA before you even think of looking at any plane!! Lot of low-time certified cubs out that are not worth 1/2 of the asking price. Cheap low buck rebuilds with orange cylinders can be a huge money pit. Make a point of spending 4-8 hours a week at your local airport and you will find the right plane for your mission, but do not fall in love until the IA approves of the relationship. No matter how good the plane and pre-buy inspection is, dropping another 10,000 in the following year on small stuff and morebetterdisease is very common.
DENNY

Flienlow said:

one that hauls fat people.

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There is no way to tell how many, however, aircraft are trading hands without being advertised. A look through Barnstormers and other places; actually not a lot of selection available imo. Any aircraft of any age, undamaged and ready to go, the price is up there. The prices for these aircraft will remain on the high side till the economy takes a breather.

About 30 years ago, I was audited by Canada Revenue Agency at time it was cracking down on expense-account freeloaders. The auditor came to our house a couple miles from anyone and was snowed-in for the night. I know best advice is to let them do their work and keep mouth shut but curiosity got best of me next morning at breakfast and I said I guess you're wondering about my three planes in the hangar,( a Champ, SC on floats, Cessna 185). "Not at all, Mr. Brown.We don't care how many planes you have.We've noted when you fly you're making money and paying taxes, and when you sell one it's always a profit."

I just learned there is a guy in my office that is an A&P Mechanic. I asked him about Cubs and he stated that he wasn't that familiar with them. We got to talking about working on Planes and I asked him if he would look at a plane with me to which he agreed. However, he also told me that it takes 2 Mechanics to work on a plane. 1 to do the work, and 1 to inspect the work that was done? Is that the case??
I always thought there was 1.An A&P Mechanic- He can work on your plane, change engine, skins, whatever, and sign log books. 2. An A&P AI - This is a person that can take a plane that is completely apart, put it back together and then Bless it to be Airworthy. Am I correct? I did not think that you need to people to perform a repair or maintenance.

It only takes one person, but 2 certificates. Maintenance is done under the authority of an A&P certificate. Annual inspections and major repairs or major alterations are returned to service using the Inspection Authorization. Not all A&Ps have an IA, so in that case those things requiring an IA would be done by someone else.

If you are going to buy an airplane, I would suggest you read up on 14 CFR 43 and 65 to understand what is required (oh trash, don’t forget 91) and who is authorized to do it. Just because you hand your airplane to an A&P to have work done, doesn’t mean you as the airplane owner isn’t responsible. All maintenance and inspections and the required paperwork is the owners responsibility.


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I have been enjoying this thread and feel like adding my 2c. I have been a Cub pilot since I first started flying in 1992, I learnt on a J-3 moved on to a Zlin 142 for aerobatic training, missed my Cub, bought a 150 Super Cub, sold it and now have a PA12 with 160 hp and Borer prop.... oh and another J-3! My J-3 has floats but they have remained in the hangar while the J-3 flies on wheels but that is mainly due to unfriendly regulators where I live. I have done my float flying with Browns and advanced courses in Idaho and Alaska. All great, but here follows the heresy: two years ago I bought a Piper Cherokee 235 for $45k. It has the 250hp mod, autopilot and Garmin 430. It cruises at 130-5 knots, needs all of 400 yards to get airborne with full load, can be landed in 250 has 4 seats(cramped in the back - it’s a’67), 6.5 hours endurance and 1380 lbs useful.
This plane has got me doing a lot more cross country stuff again and has been a revelation- I used to sneer at spam cans. I still have the tail draggers for messing about and love them - but on your budget you could have a 235 and a J-3 on floats; best of both.


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If you really want a cub you need to find an IA that works on them!!! A guy/gal that only works on a C17/C130/MD11 and not fabric GA aircraft will be of little use and often a hindrance when it comes to working on/inspecting a CAR3 aircraft. Your friend sounds like someone that has not worked on GA aircraft. Go find some fabric planes and stand next to them until someone will come along and then do that hanger flying stuff until you figure out what you want and who to talk with.

DENNY

Brandsman brings up a good point for a first time buyer.. No "one" airplane will do it all (I think 3 is the magic number:smile The buyer needs to define the mission and buy the airplane they want most.. Unfortunately many of us didn't realize that until we bought the wrong one, at least once...
I'm a slower learner.. :smile:

A pre-buy by a mechanic with expertise in the type is #1 need IMO ! Hire the best and whatever he asks is money well spent. I've seen E-AB cub clones such as a Cubby at bargin prices but pre-buy is even more important. Anyone can work on a E-AB. The owner can rebuild the engine or anything else. A "major" change requires notifing local FAA office and usually placing the aircraft back in phase 1 flight test(no passengers) for an additional 5 hours. Very simple compared to a certified aircraft. You have great utility. With any aircraft you need to have a good relationship with an A&P for E-AB and/or IA for certified. With a E-AB I'd make sure you have a mechanic willing to sign-off BEFORE you buy. Many shops/mechanics do NOT work on E-AB's.

IMO E-AB is the only way to go but only if you have a willing mechanic. Of coarse building yourself and having a repairman certificate is best as you can do your own annual. I have two E-AB w/repairman cert. and I couldn't aford to fly any other way. But, BIG BUT. I do have a friend IA to call. I certainly don't know everything and yell for help before I get in over my head. I certainly don't want to kill myself. It's good to have another set of eyes at inspection time. You don't really need to know anything about engines to get the repairman cert. Many if not most simply buy and engine and install it and may know nothing about the insides. I'm building a new engine now for the first time and it's a slow process but rewarding. I couldn't do it w/o help even though the engines are B&S simple. You must do things EXACTLY right like torquing things exactly right. Parts need to be Overhauled and/or inspected. Thats the rub. The unlicensed oiwner can "Overhaul" an engine by taking it apart and putting it back together...... So buying a E-AB can be a crapshoot. Records are important.

I like to say:

The best thing about E-AB (w/repair cert.) is you don't need the FAA or anyone licenced to keep on flying.

The Worst thing about E-AB (w/repair cert.) is you don't need the FAA or anyone licenced to keep on flying.

Good luck,

Jack

PS you may still need to pay for an airplane at bi-annual time as some CFI's won't get in a E-AB.

I bought a 1965 Champion 7ECA with 100 HP O-200 about four years ago. Today, four years later, I sold it for what I originally paid for it - down to the penny.

During the four years I owned it, it went through four annual inspections (average cost $650 per inspection - no "extra" maintenance tasks included in that price), plus about $1500 for oil and filter changes (every 50 hours or at annual time, whichever came first) and a handful of small repairs (COM radio repair, landing light replacement - twice, map light, PTT switch that shorted out, etc.). I also upgraded the airplane with ADS-B Out, which cost me about $4500.

Fuel cost me about $18 per hour ($4.25/gal X 4.3 gph), and I added a total of 2 quarts of oil (aside from the oil changes already referenced).

So, for the benefit of actually owning the taildragger I used in training for my TW endorsement – not to mention building some quality TW time, I paid $8600 ($2150 per year, or under $180 per month) plus under $20/hour for consumables.

Renting a tailwheel plane around here would have involved lots of scheduling hassles, and a significantly higher total and hourly costs. The only "practical" tailwheel rental place near me rents Decathlons for $170/hr (+ $60/hr for the mandatory CFI). Every hour of rental time would have paid for 1.25 months of ownership...

The airplane was no showplane, but it flew great and I had a blast with it. It saved me a ton of money over renting, and I enjoyed being able to go to the airport on a whim and go flying whenever I wanted to. Priceless!