Buying an airplane

Hi All-
I am 250hr vrf pilot that wants to get back into flying at age 50. I just got medical and weather permitting, I will get my BRF. I have never owned a plane and have been mortally terrified of ownership for years. I have a huge phobia of "Yeah, that is gonna be $10,000 to fix that." It may sound crazy, but it has always been the case. I have always been extremely annoyed at the fact of having to pay someone (an A&P Mechanic) to fix something I know with a service manual I could easily do myself.- Perhaps I need to check my attitude on that one, and for sure there is place for the professionals.
Anyway, I find myself at an age and time where I better do it now if I am going to do it. I would like to have a STOL A/C and even more, one on floats. I think that would be fantastic.


The reason for this post is to find what considerations I should take when choosing a plane. My Daughter and I visited Cub Crafters. They had to drag me out of there and surely had to mop my Saliva off the floor.
However, unlike you all, I just can't bust out $350k for a 2-place airplane. Alright.....I can't bust out $350k for any plane.


The simple answer would be to find a low-time Certified Cub would it not? Preferably one already on floats? I have been looking into the homebuilt kits as well such as the Rans 21, Kitfox 7, and another ugly-ass Aluminum Aardvark. However, 1 is fast, but not very STOL, 1 is more STOL centric but small, and the other uses paper thin Aluminum that shimmers in the prop wash. All of those kits are 35k, and I would need to wait over a year just for it to show up. - I am not sure that is going to work for me.
In regards to Cubs, I have about 15min TT in a J3 (someone took me around the pattern.) but I don't know what I should hunt down or if I should buy Certified, E-AB, or build one myself?

In the mean time, I will test the waters by going to Idaho for Tail-wheel training and then hopefully go to alaska for my float rating.

Welcome. Seems an amateur built rig is in your future.

If so, which should I consider?
Thanks.

My Mechanic is building a Rans S-20. Looks good to me. S-7 looks good too. Murphy rebel is nice. Cubs are expensive. Cessna 140, Piper Tripacer is great.
.

Flienlow said:

If so, which should I consider?
Thanks.

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It all depends on your budget. Those planes listed above are good choices. You can buy a partially completed Cub or SuperCub Clone for pennies on the dollar. Same for those aircraft listed in Don D's post. If your mechanical abilities are such that you feel an A&P is a rip off, then finish building the plane yourself so you know what you've got. Lots of EAA chapters with tech counselors and other knowledgeable folks around that can advise when you are in over your head as well as some on here. Not all Cubs are expensive. There are lots of Wag Aero Cub projects out there that can be easily modified to be an inexpensive SuperCub Clone. That's what I did when I decided I wanted another Cub. Mine is every bit as much fun as a Cubcrafters Cub at 15% of the cost, plus working like a dog for about 18 months to complete the build.

-Cub Builder

If you don’t want to pay an A&P to fix it, get an Experimental Amateur Built. If you didn’t build it, you still need to pay an A&P to do the condition inspection, but you can do all other work without supervision.

If you go certified, you can still work on it, just need to have supervision. Remember the A&P signs his name to it, so he needs to be compensated fairly!

If you are looking at something that goes in the water be prepared for sticker shock once you start looking for insurance!


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Have you checked out float plane ratings in Kalispell, MT? www.backcountryflyingexperience.com does them in a PA-18 Supercub.

Experimental seems to fit you well. Build a SuperCub from Javron or a Bearhawk Patrol. Do all your own maintenance and set it up the way you want. Ownership cost of experimental is much less

Flienlow said:

If so, which should I consider?
Thanks.

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That is a tough one for us to answer, there are quite a few great choices, good ones too, and yes that Aardvark that needs no mention.
Reason we can not answer,
Your desires as to weather a side by side, or tandem seating.
Conventional Lycoming or Continental, or something like a Rotax or Yamaha. Each one of those has it's strong as well as maybe not so strong points.
Floats can go on most anything, just how important are they?

But for me, I have no interest in a certified plane even though I am an A&P. There is so much that can be safely done to improve the 50 to 80YO designs that is efficiently done with an E-AB plane but the certified ones require an unknown amount of paperwork time depending on who oversees the project.
Now if you live near one of the gurus here who can guide you through, cool.
The choice of a mechanic can be more important than the choice of plane.

I would consider getting out to Airventure later this year, that place is like a collage course of what is available.
There is allot of fun to be had out there, Oshkosh as well as just to get back in the air with a plane that has fewer restrictions to where you can play.

side by side, or tandem seating. Open to both. I do plan to do some cub driving in AK to get more time in. To be honest, after the CC tour. I am pretty hooked on a Cub.
Conventional Lycoming or Continental - from a non A&P, personally the more simple the better for me.
Floats can go on most anything, just how important are they? - Right now, less important. But I would want a plane that I can convert to float ops. It would be cool to have one on our dock.

Just to build time and enjoy life? A J-3 with C-85-12, so you have a starter option, assuming you are approaching the age of semi-limited agility.

But good J-3s are expensive, so if your budget is restricted, a good Champ or Citabria is an economical answer.

I have my Decathlon insured for just under a grand, 52K hull. My buddy has his amphib super cub insured for 100K hull - premium is $5,000 per year! That buys a lot of instructional hours at Kalispell.

Come to think of it, say the Kalispell Cub is $250/hour. If you do that, you get 20 hours a year of quality instruction and practice - almost an hour every other week! And that does not count what you save on maintenance and mooring. I bet you would break even at one hour a week - more than most folks fly total.

You could spend the other six days wearing out your J-3 in the pattern.

You do not appear to be turned off by the weight limitations of LSA type planes (S-7 etc.) so used planes in that category should also be on your list. Take a look at Barnstormers section on LSA. There will be S-LSA and E-LSA. Make note that any S-LSA can be reclassified to an E-LSA; mostly a paperwork transition. There is also the advantage (maybe only mentally) that an S-LSA was factory built and not built by someone that you may not want to trust as far as his building skills as would be the case when going used E-AB. Once E-LSA, you can do your own maintenance and you can take a weekend course and get a certificate to do your own annual. IMO you should be a pretty darn good mechanic first as the course is mostly a list of where to find help and how to fill out the paperwork; it most certainly can't turn you into an A&P in a weekend. If you go LSA most likely it will have a Rotax. They are a good engine if you have the knowledge and, again IMO, the training. There is a also a two day course on annual inspection on the Rotax. I took mine in Tucson and it was excellent. If you want to dig in deeper, there are other courses that get more mechanically detailed. So there are more options than just E-AB out there if you want to check out that route.

WYflyer said:

You do not appear to be turned off by the weight limitations of LSA type planes (S-7 etc.) so used planes in that category should also be on your list. Take a look at Barnstormers section on LSA. There will be S-LSA and E-LSA. Make note that any S-LSA can be reclassified to an E-LSA; mostly a paperwork transition. There is also the advantage (maybe only mentally) that an S-LSA was factory built and not built by someone that you may not want to trust as far as his building skills as would be the case when going used E-AB. Once E-LSA, you can do your own maintenance and you can take a weekend course and get a certificate to do your own annual. IMO you should be a pretty darn good mechanic first as the course is mostly a list of where to find help and how to fill out the paperwork; it most certainly can't turn you into an A&P in a weekend. If you go LSA most likely it will have a Rotax. They are a good engine if you have the knowledge and, again IMO, the training. There is a also a two day course on annual inspection on the Rotax. I took mine in Tucson and it was excellent. If you want to dig in deeper, there are other courses that get more mechanically detailed. So there are more options than just E-AB out there if you want to check out that route.

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Oh You might be suprised.
I would prefer to have a "real plane."
I would also prefer not having to build it, although think it would be very fun. - Just too time consuming.
I am still a bit fuzzy on what I can and can't do as far as working on an Experimental aircraft myself. You can only get a repairman certificate for E-LSA, but not E-AB (assuming I bought someone's E-AB cub?)


On that note, what are the big maintenance items and consideration with a Super Cub?

PS. thanks all for taking the time here.

Flienlow said:

I am still a bit fuzzy on what I can and can't do as far as working on an Experimental aircraft myself. You can only get a repairman certificate for E-LSA, but not E-AB (assuming I bought someone's E-AB cub?)

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I bought an already-flying E-AB airplane. I do all my own maintenance. I also do an annual pre-inspection for my condition inspection and fix any squawks I find before I take it in for the for-real CI.

I have a good friend that’s an A&P/IA that does the actual condition inspection and sign-off every year, and it’s great having an experienced set of eyes checking my work.

I have found owning an E-AB to be extremely rewarding and affordable, even if I don’t have a repairman certificate.

Flienlow said:

Oh You might be suprised.
I would prefer to have a "real plane."
I would also prefer not having to build it, although think it would be very fun. - Just too time consuming.
I am still a bit fuzzy on what I can and can't do as far as working on an Experimental aircraft myself. You can only get a repairman certificate for E-LSA, but not E-AB (assuming I bought someone's E-AB cub?)


On that note, what are the big maintenance items and consideration with a Super Cub?

PS. thanks all for taking the time here.

Click to expand...

Read 14CFR 43.1. For any Experimental airplane (except one that previously had a Standard or restricted certificate), Part 43 does not apply, so you can do ANYTHING to it unless it qualifies as a major change under 21.93 (should say that in the operating limitations). The only thing you need a certificate for is the condition inspection.

If you are going to own an airplane, any airplane, suggest you read and understand Part 43, and Part 91 sub part C and sub part E. The answers are in the regulations!


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Sounds like you want to fly...like tomorrow.

You didn't say what your budget is.

To me, it seems like the rans and other STOL home built airplanes cost around the same once completed....around 100K+++.

Insurance: I'm not sure what the difference between an experimental vs certified rates are. You might end up giving your a&p labor savings to the insurance company.

Floats: Floats are a great idea, but the insurance and where your airplane is based will determine if they are worth the money.

I have my A&P rating. More than happy to help the people who are patient, interested in doing things correctly, and willing to ask for help if they are not 100% sure.

Tim

behindpropellers said:

Sounds like you want to fly...like tomorrow.

You didn't say what your budget is.

To me, it seems like the rans and other STOL home built airplanes cost around the same once completed....around 100K+++.

Insurance: I'm not sure what the difference between an experimental vs certified rates are. You might end up giving your a&p labor savings to the insurance company.

Floats: Floats are a great idea, but the insurance and where your airplane is based will determine if they are worth the money.

I have my A&P rating. More than happy to help the people who are patient, interested in doing things correctly, and willing to ask for help if they are not 100% sure.

Tim

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You know, I don't what the budget should be. I know for sure I won't get $200k past the Air Boss....ah hell nah. She is already giving me the stink eye on the whole idea.
Looking at the Home Builts and talking to the Kitfox guys, I will be busting $125k easily for what I would want and that is without floats.
This is where my old ass gets crazy. I remember when you could build a kit for a somewhat reasonable price, and back then they made more sense. Seems like I could buy Certified for maybe less and not have to wait till I am dead to get it in the air?? Of course like I stated earlier knowing my luck I will be all clutch butt and grab ass showing off my new-top-me plane when one of you guys will say. "You know..... that thing needs to be recovered" or some other spear through my soul that I am not aware of.

So....is $125k your budget? That's an open inquiry but realistically, a budget is needed, then add 50% to it and you know how to look for the cost of your plane.

FWIW, I'd look into Citabrias, PA-12's, Cessna 170's, etc. For me, my mechanical ability tends to top out at changing a truck tire :roll:, so I can't and never will speak to an experimental, owner-built, whatever. That being said, if one is not all thumbs, there's a fair amount of work that can be done on certified A/C by the owner and supervised by the A&P without sacrificing quality.

Also FWIW and very much opinion, you can get the aircraft mentioned above for less than $125k.....and even more opinion, when you've put 250 - 400 hours into your Citabria, -12, 170 or ??? and you can consistently fly to the limits of the airplane, that's the time to look for an -18, a Husky, a CC, a rip-snorter 180, whatever.

At 50, which is getting increasingly far in the background for me, I'd want to spend my time flying rather than building.

pa12drvr said:

So....is $125k your budget? That's an open inquiry but realistically, a budget is needed, then add 50% to it and you know how to look for the cost of your plane.

FWIW, I'd look into Citabrias, PA-12's, Cessna 170's, etc. For me, my mechanical ability tends to top out at changing a truck tire :roll:, so I can't and never will speak to an experimental, owner-built, whatever. That being said, if one is not all thumbs, there's a fair amount of work that can be done on certified A/C by the owner and supervised by the A&P without sacrificing quality.

Also FWIW and very much opinion, you can get the aircraft mentioned above for less than $125k.....and even more opinion, when you've put 250 - 400 hours into your Citabria, -12, 170 or ??? and you can consistently fly to the limits of the airplane, that's the time to look for an -18, a Husky, a CC, a rip-snorter 180, whatever.

At 50, which is getting increasingly far in the background for me, I'd want to spend my time flying rather than building.

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Thank you. I have heard of Citabria, but know nothing about them, I will need to dig on that. There is an outfit here that does a beautiful job redoing 170s, 80, and 85. But they are out of this world expensive for me. I was quoted 500k for a 170.

I thought you were tight on $$$. You can buy a dang nice plane with 125K.

Flienlow said:

Oh You might be suprised.
I would prefer to have a "real plane."
I would also prefer not having to build it, although think it would be very fun. - Just too time consuming.
I am still a bit fuzzy on what I can and can't do as far as working on an Experimental aircraft myself. You can only get a repairman certificate for E-LSA, but not E-AB (assuming I bought someone's E-AB cub?)


On that note, what are the big maintenance items and consideration with a Super Cub?

PS. thanks all for taking the time here.

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What is a “real plane”?

Flienlow said:

Thank you. I have heard of Citabria, but know nothing about them, I will need to dig on that. There is an outfit here that does a beautiful job redoing 170s, 80, and 85. But they are out of this world expensive for me. I was quoted 500k for a 170.

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You in the NW? There’s a decent 140 for sale in Arlington. You could probably get it for mid to high teens.

RoddyM said:

What is a “real plane”?

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one that hauls fat people.

Charlie Longley said:

You in the NW? There’s a decent 140 for sale in Arlington. You could probably get it for mid to high teens.

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Yes, S-43. Thank you but 140s are a bit...small.

A Pacer makes a great 2-place plus gear airplane for larger folks.

Pretty affordable, too.

If I didn’t have an A&P/IA I would build one of these-
http://cubcrafters.com/carboncub/ex

Flienlow, about 2 years ago I was in your position, except I have 10 years on you. Right now I'm flying a rental Cessna, scratch building a Wag Aero 2+2, and keeping an eye out for a decent flying machine. I almost bought a fairly nice Pacer for 20k located just 60 miles north of me. But I was too busy and someone else got there first.

Keep your options open. Building a kit will eat up that 125k pretty fast, but it will be fun. I think you can find very nice planes to suit your purpose in the sub 50k range if you keep your eyes open. I'm still looking at something in the mid-teens that seems to be a solid little thing, but I'm keeping quiet about it for now

One thing to consider: buy an airworthy airplane for around 20k, fly it for a few hundred hours, and sell it if you want something else. Odds are you'd get what you paid for it, and if not, the risk is not very high. (You were already bracing yourself for 10k hits anyway, right?).

Building takes a high degree of dedication to get anything done. Unless your a "project guy" in the first place you will likely lose interest before it's done.
You don't need to buy the "end all, be all" airplane right out of the gate. Buy the best airplane in the category of interest as cheap as possible. Learn about ownership and your mission, then sell it and move up.