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Thread: Aerial Gunnery from plane

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    Colorguns's Avatar
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    Aerial Gunnery from plane

    So..... How do I go about getting permission to mount a couple semi auto shotguns to my Cruiser to shoot coyotes, hogs or wolves, similar to shooting out the window/door but guns mounted on the plane.

    Doug
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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorguns View Post
    So..... How do I go about getting permission to mount a couple semi auto shotguns to my Cruiser to shoot coyotes, hogs or wolves, similar to shooting out the window/door but guns mounted on the plane.

    Doug


    A lot of the farm fields around here got planted with hemp this past season. Is there an East wind tonight?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    55-PA18A's Avatar
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    For mounting, probably need to deal with external load paperwork. To actually use them, you'd need to deal with provisions of the Federal Airborne Hunting Act.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorguns View Post
    So..... How do I go about getting permission to mount a couple semi auto shotguns to my Cruiser to shoot coyotes, hogs or wolves, similar to shooting out the window/door but guns mounted on the plane.

    Doug
    Going to be windy stuffing shells in the tube. For the guys that have discharged weapons while flying is it safer to fly and shoot or fly a gunner?
    I could foresee a chain of CFITing it in both ways.
    No idea how to do it legally and there are certain states where you probably shouldn't even think about it, because it won't be legal even if it is legal.
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    brown bear's Avatar
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    Good luck on external load paperwork in the lower 48

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    Looks like this guy has a solenoid activated trigger on a remote mount siaga 12. Would be fun for sure but I would be afraid of any kind of remote mounted electronic trigger when it comes to the ATF Click image for larger version. 

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    Doug;
    Permission granted.........
    E

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Doug, I'm sure that Andrew Cuomo would be happy to give you permission.
    N1PA

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    C130jake's Avatar
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    Is that a cubcrafters option or Beringer wheel option?

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    I remember reading, a long time ago, of a guy mounting a M-1 Grand above his skylight ( he must have taken out the skylight so then he could reload easily ) and shooting problems bears in Alaska. But my favorite, and the one I would like to be able to do, is during WWII of a cub being equipped with 3 bazookas on each wing strut. With no recoil and lots of destruction on the other end; it's ideal for a cub. If you happen to get this approved; do let me know.
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    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kid View Post
    I remember reading, a long time ago, of a guy mounting a M-1 Grand above his skylight ( he must have taken out the skylight so then he could reload easily ) and shooting problems bears in Alaska. But my favorite, and the one I would like to be able to do, is during WWII of a cub being equipped with 3 bazookas on each wing strut. With no recoil and lots of destruction on the other end; it's ideal for a cub. If you happen to get this approved; do let me know.
    i knew the fellow with the rifle mounted on the roof of a Super Cub. He flew Mustangs in WW II. The Cub had a sliding hatch in the skylight that permitted in flight magazine changes. He had an electrically activated trigger with switch on the stick. Rumors were that initially the rifle used was a BAR, but when word started getting out about this, the gun was switched to the M-1. I never heard him confirm that.

    This “program” was initiated by a few guys running cattle on Kodiak Island, which in itself has proven to be a losing proposition. After these guys had been doing this for a while, Jim Rearden looked into it and wrote some articles about it, including one that appeared in Outdoor Life. Hunters were strongly against the project, and it was soon scrapped after the public learned of it.

    MTV
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  14. #14
    Herc's Avatar
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    Here's an old thread that discussed aerial shooting. https://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...n-wolf-hunting

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kid View Post
    I remember reading, a long time ago, of a guy mounting a M-1 Grand above his skylight ( he must have taken out the skylight so then he could reload easily ) and shooting problems bears in Alaska. But my favorite, and the one I would like to be able to do, is during WWII of a cub being equipped with 3 bazookas on each wing strut. With no recoil and lots of destruction on the other end; it's ideal for a cub. If you happen to get this approved; do let me know.
    https://www.warhistoryonline.com/mil...carpenter.html

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    55-PA18A's Avatar
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    We're getting away from Doug's original question, but that's not unusual. I'll bite. I've heard about the M-1 Garand mounted on the SC used for bear control on Kodiak, and might even have seen a photo but it's been a long time ago. One problem with this story is that the Garand is not magazine fed. Rather it's loaded with a clip feeding 8 rounds from the top with the bolt locked open. Never done it, but have heard it's not unusual to get a thumb stuck when the bolt slams shut on the last round loaded. So, because it takes two hands working from the upper side of the rifle to load, and holds only 8 rounds,...doesn't seem to practical for this use. I'm skeptical. They're damn fun to shoot though. The magazine fed BAR mentioned by Mike (firing the same 30.06 round as the Garand) however does have some potential and impressive firepower.

    For information on the bazooka-equipped Cub, look up "Bazooka Charlie". I read about it either on this forum or another. True story from WW-II.

    There are several photos in this thread showing the shotguns used by Don Sheldon out of Talkeetna. In the 70's I saw this set up at the Talkeetna museum. Each shotgun had a small solenoid to the rear of the trigger guard with the rod of the solenoid going through a hole in the trigger guard and attached to the trigger. There was a bank of switches that I assumed was used to control the solenoids. Two banks of two shotguns with extended magazine, one for each wing.

    Jim

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    mvivion's Avatar
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    The reference to a Garand has been around forever. Obviously the gun they used was something else. I once asked the pilot about the BAR, and he changed the subject. It apparently disappeared when the media got interested. The assumption was it wasn’t legal.

    I have no idea what it was replaced with, but it was supposedly a semi automatic rifle in 30-06 cal.

    MTV

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    Maybe someone can find a link to the article.

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    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveE View Post
    Maybe someone can find a link to the article.

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    I used to have copy of the article, but I think it may have disappeared in one of my moves.

    It was written by Jim Rearden.

    MTV

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreggB View Post
    Going to be windy stuffing shells in the tube.
    Ahh, a Saga 12 with 50 round drum. Just got to deal with the last 10 that may not cycle reliably.

  21. #21
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Sorry, but a Garand can be manipulated with one hand. Not pretty, occasionally painful, but can and has been done.

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

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    Here's an article that includes a couple paragraphs about the Kodiak bear hunting rancher Joe Zentner in "American Cowboy" magazine. He bought a Piper Cub in 1952, took a few flying lessons but never had a pilot's license.

    https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/re...island-alaska-

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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    Sorry, but a Garand can be manipulated with one hand. Not pretty, occasionally painful, but can and has been done.

    Web
    It takes a Marine Web

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveE View Post
    Maybe someone can find a link to the article.

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    I remember reading this article back in ‘64 and am fairly certain there was a picture of the cub with a Garand mounted over the greenhouse. There was a sliding door in the plexiglass that the pilot could reach through and reload. Loading an M-1 with one hand is certainly doable, but not easy. I’d be worried about the ejected enbloc clip punching a hole in the fabric of the empennage. The BAR with a bottom fed replaceable magazine would be a lot more practical.
    Mike

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    TR: Oh, that's a nice one!...But anyhow, he wanted us to tell him how he could mount a 50 caliber machine gun on the wing of his airplane? Well finally, it took about 2 hours of time, we finally convinced Joe that the 50 caliber on his J-3 was just too much, the plane wouldn't support it over any length of time. We finally satisfied him because later on after I was ordered back to California, I picked up either Field and Stream or Outdoor Life Magazine, and it had this great article about this cattle rancher in Kodiak who was having problems with Federal Fish and Wildlife officials over killing bears with his airplane. What he had done was to find a way to mount his Durand rifle on the J-3 airplane. As you know, the Durand rifle has the capability of going into full automatic. Typically a World War I sort of thing. He had the rifle mounted up there and this wire going down into the cockpit where he could pull it and make this thing go. He was actually strafing the bear. This is where he got a foul off the Fish and Wildlife people. They didn't think that was just the way to hunt bear.
    For the rest of the story click this link. It starts on page 9 of the interview.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...jWxmrke6otQRZ8
    Last edited by Mot; 01-20-2020 at 10:38 AM.

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    mvivion's Avatar
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    For perspective, when I worked on Kodiak, a bear hunt with a guide cost between $10 and $12 thousand. Non residents are required to obtain the services of a guide when hunting brown bears, with the provision that a first level next of kin who is a resident can serve as that guide.

    In any case, a brown bear on Kodiak is worth a lot more than one or a herd of those cows.

    Cattle "ranching" on Kodiak has a long and not very successful history, and the obstacles are not just bears. For one thing, there's never been a slaughterhouse on Kodiak, which means to legally sell the meat from those cows, the cattle have to be shipped to a state sanctioned slaughter house. That means a boat ride for your cows. Or, you can sell them on the hoof to locals, who then kill and butcher the cow themselves.

    Secondly, cattlemen look at the very tall grasses found on Kodiak, and they think what great forage that must be. Fact is, a cow without supplemental feed can be belly deep in that grass and almost starving. The grass has little nutrient.

    As a consequence of that, one of the ranchers imported bison, thinking that bison can exist on poorer forage than cattle. Which is true. He turned those bison loose up on his place, and the first night, they were all standing around his house. Turns out bison know all they need to know about bears. First bear showed up, the bison all moved down to the boss's house. And, there they stayed. Bison don't herd well, if they don't want to be herded.

    Interesting conundrum, but frankly, the cold hard fact is that a brown bear on Kodiak is worth a lot more than a whole bunch of cattle. If you want to raise cattle, go somewhere there aren't a lot of brown bears.

    MTV

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    Lifted from a different thread:
    arm these guys with guns you would have a pretty effective system.
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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    Lifted from a different thread:
    arm these guys with guns you would have a pretty effective system.
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    I think your on to something, Eaton on one side and Tango on the other. At least the struts will be safe

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    The gun control people would love to showcase this kind of stuff on CNN, PBS, MSNBC, ABC, CBS and NBC. We might want to keep projects like this under wraps. I'm not saying don't do it, just it's a good idea keep a low profile...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tennessee View Post
    The gun control people would love to showcase this kind of stuff on CNN, PBS, MSNBC, ABC, CBS and NBC. We might want to keep projects like this under wraps. I'm not saying don't do it, just it's a good idea keep a low profile...
    I disagree. For one helicopter hog shooting videos are over the internet. Helicopter human shooting (sandbox wars) is also all over the internet. Freedom is downstream of culture, hide gun culture and we lose our freedom.
    Remember evening TV in the 1980's every show had heroes with guns and aircraft. Now what is on TV? And what happens these days when schools see a student's picture from a range or hunting trip?
    Those awesome folks in Virginia did a fantastic job carrying scary black guns, and the world saw scary black guns as a normal part of Virginia's culture. Don't be stupid of course, but we can't hide and survive. Our culture, airplanes, guns, freedom, Christianity (yeah I said it) needs to be (cautiously, don't get fired or thrown in jail) put back out on top where it belongs.
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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Those people don't need an excuse to complain about 'guns!'.

    Web
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    Keeping a low profile gives the impression that you think what you're doing is wrong. If you know you're within your rights, legally, and ethically, don't be apologetic about it..... If someone wants to build a plane that looks like the result of a drunken one night stand between a super cub and a A-10 Warthog, good for them!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    I think your on to something, Eaton on one side and Tango on the other. At least the struts will be safe

    Glenn
    Makes me wonder which one would skip the furthest across a pond...
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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  34. #34
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    Makes me wonder which one would skip the furthest across a pond...
    Hey SJ

    You know the lake is right there, at New Holstein.

    Just sayin' . . . .

    Web
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    I think your on to something, Eaton on one side and Tango on the other. At least the struts will be safe

    Glenn
    Give me a break you guys, the amount of bullshit Eaton and I carry with us the plane would never get off the ground!


    Kirby, in my younger days I would make that drop in a heartbeat.

    Now, I find I don't bounce so well, and my rocking water penetration shape has gotten a little less of the 'penetration' shape.


    It would be fun to have a target shooting day with remote mounted guns... hmmmm
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  36. #36
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    Makes me wonder which one would skip the furthest across a pond...
    Eaton has less drag (less hair) but more area for surface tension (less hair). So higher entry speed but draggier ricochet.
    George, they say a teardrop shape is very aerodynamic. The rest of the math is above my pay grade

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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    aktango58's Avatar
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    There are the stories of sheep hunters getting dropped out low over snowed in strips, then shoveling them out to land the planes...

    Heck, I have been tossed off sleds faster than some of your cubs fly.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    i knew the fellow with the rifle mounted on the roof of a Super Cub. He flew Mustangs in WW II. The Cub had a sliding hatch in the skylight that permitted in flight magazine changes. He had an electrically activated trigger with switch on the stick. Rumors were that initially the rifle used was a BAR, but when word started getting out about this, the gun was switched to the M-1. I never heard him confirm that.

    This “program” was initiated by a few guys running cattle on Kodiak Island, which in itself has proven to be a losing proposition. After these guys had been doing this for a while, Jim Rearden looked into it and wrote some articles about it, including one that appeared in Outdoor Life. Hunters were strongly against the project, and it was soon scrapped after the public learned of it.

    MTV
    it was an M-1 Grand. I worked with him in the early 70’s in Kodiak. The aircraft was Pa-11. The intent was to remove Brown Bears from the north east corner of Kodiak to allow for the development of cattle ranches. He initially tried strafing the bears but that didn’t work well since the fire was too slow and the movement of the aircraft placed the bullets too far apart. He then tried flying straight down toward the bear so the angle would remain constant. This was confirmed by another friend, coworker who tried to ride with the pilot and found it too uncomfortable. He had the pilot drop him off on a near by beach so the pilot could finish killing that bear without him in the plane. The pilot killed about 16 bears before public pressure forced him to quit using this method. He and two other hunters employed by the cattleman’s association killed numerous bears during the sixties.

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