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Thread: -24 is too cold!

  1. #1
    Herc's Avatar
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    -24 is too cold!

    Tried to get out there flying today but couldnt get the oil temp up over 100. O290D2 with the oil cooler blocked. Was only able to get it up to about 85 in 35/40 minutes. Also might need new mags, 200rpm drop on my left and 100 on my right... gonna be an expensive annual this year. Click image for larger version. 

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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    the polar bear hunters had cabin adjustable cowl flaps at the rear of bottom cowl and side cowl doors, quite simple to build, hinge on boot cowl edges with little matching "doors" on cable to bock the openings as needed....

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    Herc's Avatar
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    Sounds like that would work great!

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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Bachner's Aircraft in Fairbanks used to make an adjustable winter kit. I made similar to what Mike notes but fixed flaps. Cover the side cowl openings and small louver slots on the lower cowl with aluminum and nut plates. Then add a lip to the lower firewall to half cover that opening plus cockpit adjustable oil cooler and fixed starter bendix covers for the front. Good to -50F.

    Gary
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    the polar bear hunters had cabin adjustable cowl flaps at the rear of bottom cowl and side cowl doors, quite simple to build, hinge on boot cowl edges with little matching "doors" on cable to bock the openings as needed....
    I was in Bozeman about 6 or 7 years ago and saw a Super Cub with the cowl flaps on the side door cheeks. The pilot was a young guy and didn’t know much about them, airplane was owned by a small commercial operator. Looked like a great idea.
    Mark
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herc View Post
    ... Also might need new mags, 200rpm drop on my left and 100 on my right... gonna be an expensive annual this year.
    Don't be too quick to get new mags. Was the 200 & 100 rpm drop rough or smooth? Rough would be plugs and/or harness. Clean or replace. Smooth would be mag points need adjusting or replacing. Is there a buildup on one point? Replace capacitor. Seldom do the mags need replacing.
    A large smooth drop indicates the mag is not internally timed correctly. This is point setting.
    A large rough drop is one or more plugs not firing properly.

    Simple fixes.
    N1PA
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  7. #7
    Herc's Avatar
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    Thanks for the advice. Definetly good to hear because both drops were smooth. New firewire plugs and wires are less than 75 hours old.

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herc View Post
    Thanks for the advice. Definetly good to hear because both drops were smooth. New firewire plugs and wires are less than 75 hours old.
    Further, If there is oil inside the mag, replace the seal at the drive end. If there is a lot of side play of the cam, it is the bearings. All of these items which I have mentioned are easily done on the bench in your shop. Only once in 60 years have I found a bad magnet. Make certain that "E" gap is set correctly. "E" gap is the relationship of the point opening to the peak magnetic flux field.

    All easy to do.
    N1PA

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    WWhunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Don't be too quick to get new mags. Was the 200 & 100 rpm drop rough or smooth? Rough would be plugs and/or harness. Clean or replace. Smooth would be mag points need adjusting or replacing. Is there a buildup on one point? Replace capacitor. Seldom do the mags need replacing.
    A large smooth drop indicates the mag is not internally timed correctly. This is point setting.
    A large rough drop is one or more plugs not firing properly.

    Simple fixes.
    Totally agree with checking this first. Not a Lyc, but on my Continental, I have this happen abut the time I am due for an oil change. This is usually around 20 hour mark that I start to get a little roughness and RPM drop. It is almost always an indication that my plugs are needing a cleaning. They get loaded up with lead. I can definitely go more hours when I burn mogas.

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WWhunter View Post
    Totally agree with checking this first. Not a Lyc, but on my Continental, I have this happen abut the time I am due for an oil change. This is usually around 20 hour mark that I start to get a little roughness and RPM drop. It is almost always an indication that my plugs are needing a cleaning. They get loaded up with lead. I can definitely go more hours when I burn mogas.
    Try a hotter heat range spark plug. Google the charts for your favorite brand of plug.
    N1PA

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Further, If there is oil inside the mag, replace the seal at the drive end. If there is a lot of side play of the cam, it is the bearings. All of these items which I have mentioned are easily done on the bench in your shop. Only once in 60 years have I found a bad magnet. Make certain that "E" gap is set correctly. "E" gap is the relationship of the point opening to the peak magnetic flux field.

    All easy to do.
    Problem with slicks is you start replacing parts and it’s becomes cheaper to buy overhauled units.


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  12. #12
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    Problem with slicks is you start replacing parts and it’s becomes cheaper to buy overhauled units.
    Installing Slicks in the first place was the mistake.
    N1PA
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    Don't do anything until you can do another mag check in warmer temps. Your mixture during a -24 mag check would be leaner than normal. Cold and lean aren't an engine's best friends.
    Last edited by stewartb; 01-05-2020 at 11:02 AM.

  14. #14
    Paul Persinger Jr.'s Avatar
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    Slick mags are fine, just have to maintain them like anything else. Fish Creek over at PAAQ does a nice job of overhauling them.

    And as stewartb said, cold fuel, cold air, just plain cold, I'm sure the mag check didn't go well!
    Last edited by Paul Persinger Jr.; 01-05-2020 at 12:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    the polar bear hunters had cabin adjustable cowl flaps at the rear of bottom cowl and side cowl doors, quite simple to build, hinge on boot cowl edges with little matching "doors" on cable to bock the openings as needed....
    Is this the same set up as the PA-18-105 “special” cowl ventilator? (as described in note 3 of TCDS 1A2). I saw one not long ago. I understand most have been removed, but every now and then you see one. I was looking for the drawing but can’t see to find them. But mom said I was a bad looker. Not exactly sure what she was referring to.


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  16. #16
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    Carbs do not atomize fuel as well at those temps.

    I tried to run the beaver up at -27, and the best I could get was 95 on the heads, not enough to go above 1,400 rpm. I park carbonated planes at -20, and injected after -32. At some point it gets to be a survival exercise instead of a flight.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  17. #17
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    Carbs do not atomize fuel as well at those temps.

    I tried to run the beaver up at -27, and the best I could get was 95 on the heads, not enough to go above 1,400 rpm. I park carbonated planes at -20, and injected after -32. At some point it gets to be a survival exercise instead of a flight.
    Carburetors which are set up right run just fine at -30 or colder. Operating temperatures are a different matter.

    I put side cowl cheek baffles on my Cub and on one other, which really helped with oil temps. One was a CC Top Cub, with those huge side cowl cheeks to accomodate the O 360. The oil temps at -10 never got over 96 F even with the oil cooler completely blocked off. The side baffles helped get that up to ~ 140 F at -10 or so.

    Cylinder head heat with a pressure cowl should be more "Normal" in cold temps, but those oil temps, particularly in wide open cowls, can run cold.

    I've run SC and Huskys quite a lot at down to -40 and they work fine. Have to play some games to get enough cabin and windshield heat, though.

    And, I never saw unusual mag drops due to cold temps.

    MTV

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    Huh. None of my carbureted airplanes or any other internal combustion engines has been set up to run properly in -40* (or -24*) and I'd bet that's true of 95% of the planes out there. Cold air requires a lot of fuel.

  19. #19
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    As mentioned above carbs require re-jetting based upon OAT if the recommended air/fuel ratio range and EGT are to be maintained. Given that it's uncommon for M-S carbs to be adjusted for main discharge nozzle size, or fine tuned with better emulsion tubes, we are left with carb heat as an alternative to maintain air/fuel and EGT specs. Caution: Too much carb heat can create carb ice.

    Note page 1-4 (http://www.insightavionics.com/pdf%2...b%20Manual.pdf). If -50 to -100 rich of peak EGT can't be set via the mixture control full rich you're likely running lean in cold weather.

    OAS has some words on this matter: https://www.doi.gov/sites/doi.gov/fi...TB_2014-01.pdf I suspect the stumbling is partially related to cooler oil sump temps and resulting fuel condensation in the Lycoming induction system - just a SWAG.

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 01-07-2020 at 02:33 PM.

  20. #20
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Huh. None of my carbureted airplanes or any other internal combustion engines has been set up to run properly in -40* (or -24*) and I'd bet that's true of 95% of the planes out there. Cold air requires a lot of fuel.
    Well, I worked Cubs and Huskys out of Fairbanks and north for a few thousand hours. Our cutoff was -40, and I worked these planes at or close to that temperature a fair bit, operating in the Upper Yukon Valley, the Koyukuk River area, Tetlin Flats, etc.

    None of these airplanes had carburetors re-jetted between winter and summer.

    Moose surveys almost always resulted in many hours at low level and slow speed, and I don't recall ever doing moose surveys in temps above 0 F. On the other hand, I recall one survey just over a week long, where temps never got ABOVE -30 F. Twenty five to thirty hours of flight time on that one.....carburetors all worked fine.

    As I noted earlier, most of our airplanes were modified in terms of providing more interior heat and defrost capability, and all had some sort of simple (often duct tape) cover over the oil cooler. All airplanes were properly pre-heated prior to engine start every day, and engine covers applied when shut down for fuel, etc. The day we finished that project, we ended the day back in Galena, where we spent the night. We had been operating out of a tent camp on the North Fork of the Huslia River.

    The next morning, my back seater and I got up, got some coffee and decided to head for FAI. Temperature in Galena was reporting -39 F. FAI was at -35 F. The plane was parked on the ice at Alexander Lake, not at the airport in Galena. Plane was full of fuel, so I pre-flighted, we saddled up and taxied back for takeoff. Acceleration went fine, and we were on our way. Next day, I got an email that the "official" NWS certified thermometer on the lake surface at Alexander Lake when we took off was -58 F.

    When we passed Tanana, it was reporting -58 as well. I kept on to FAI, since we were above the inversion, and in balmy -20 air, and there was no way I was descending till I got to FAI.

    And, amazingly, everything worked just fine on that 160 hp Super Cub, which was bone stock, except for the hp and oil cooler cover. Froze our asses off enroute, though.

    There were no other "special" modifications or?? to these airplanes, and I never heard of one "not running right" because of the cold. We occasionally had other issues with airplanes during these operations, but none I recall were unique to cold.

    These "adventures" stretched over the course of twenty winters, and there were always four to a half dozen airplanes involved.

    Would I operate in those kinds of temperatures these days, or with my own airplane? No thanks, but that's because I'm now officially an old fart, and nobody is paying me to use their airplanes for that kind of work.

    DOI advised against operating in those temperatures, even though their official cutoff was -40, but the point was there was work to do, and it wouldn't get done if we hadn't operated at those temps. And, we did it safely.

    The airplanes I operated in those temps all went to TBO, as far as I know. We sure didn't change any cylinders, etc.

    MTV
    Last edited by mvivion; 01-07-2020 at 04:06 PM.
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  21. #21
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    As mentioned above carbs require re-jetting based upon OAT if the recommended air/fuel ratio range and EGT are to be maintained. Given that it's uncommon for M-S carbs to be adjusted for main discharge nozzle size, or fine tuned with better emulsion tubes, we are left with carb heat as an alternative to maintain air/fuel and EGT specs. Caution: Too much carb heat can create carb ice.

    Note page 1-4 (http://www.insightavionics.com/pdf%2...b%20Manual.pdf). If -50 to -100 rich of peak EGT can't be set via the mixture control full rich you're likely running lean in cold weather.

    OAS has some words on this matter: https://www.doi.gov/sites/doi.gov/fi...TB_2014-01.pdf I suspect the stumbling is partially related to cooler oil sump temps and resulting fuel condensation in the Lycoming induction system - just a SWAG.
    -
    Gary
    I never figured out what the problem was with the Cub Crafters Top Cub, but the most likely culprit in my opinion was the carburetor. I put a lot of hours on several different Huskys with O-360s and M-S carburetors, operating in very cold temperatures and never had an engine stumble, ever.

    The Top Cub (CC-18-180) I operated in NW Minnesota, on the other hand, would kill the engine if you moved the throttle even sorta "briskly" in cold weather. Our (my) cutoff there was -10 F, simply because below that temp, we couldn't get the oil temperature above human body temperature, and it was impossible to keep the windows clear of frost, and the participants even sorta warm.

    My first experience with this stumbling was with a student in the front seat, radio tracking wild turkeys near Thief River Falls. We'd made several low passes, flaps deployed and power back, trying to see the turkeys. We did, and the student (Private pilot, working on Commercial) shoved the throttle ahead pretty fast, from near idle. Carb heat was applied. Engine quit dead. And, as the student had also pulled the nose up, the prop stopped. I carefully instructed the student to put left hand on ignition switch and turn it to the S T A R T position.....now! I had the throttle at that point. Engine re-start happened at about 100 feet agl.

    Heart re-started at about 1000 agl.

    We went upstairs and experimented with the thing, and it would consistently kill the engine if you advanced the throttle very quickly any time the temps were below zero.

    When I heard that my old outfit was buying CC-18-180s, I let the Manager know what I'd found. Turns out they found the same thing with all of them, and wound up grounding them all over winter.

    The link above is obviously what they concluded. As I said, I'm convinced the different model carburetor was the issue. Never had anything like that happen with a PA-18 or a Husky or Scout, all with M-S carbs, and equipped with very similar Lycoming engines.

    MTV

  22. #22
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    This is the carb that OAS identified as being problematic in #19: http://store.cubcrafters.com/AvStar-...93_p_1523.html <supplied by> http://www.avstardirect.com I know nothing about them.

    Regardless of type the air/fuel ratio needs to be maintained within functioning limits when transitioning from idle to WFO. Apparently their acceleration mechanism or internal fuel metering can differ from the typical Marvel carbs we are most familiar with in cold temps. Cold temps = more air density per volume of air so more gas required to maintain the proper air/fuel ratio. Carb heat makes the air less dense so less fuel required. Add to that a cold intake system or oil sump through which most Lycs suck air and any condensation or pooling (due to reduced air velocity or sharp bends) of fuel along that intake path can result in a leaner mixture as I mentioned above.

    Mike's point about making the turkeys small again then experimenting with the engine's response is excellent. I've tried that with M-S MA3, MA3-SPA, and MA4-SPA carbs in winter. The small Continentals are real picky especially when in cold air. The Lycs O-235 through O-360 did ok if the oil was warm with the standard accelerator pump setting and idle cutoff rise set to a minimum of 50-100 rpm.

    Below -20F from what I've seen the EGT spread per cylinder becomes progressively narrow and on one engine approached achievable peak at 1000' msl when full rich. Density altitude was way below sea level by then. If pulling the mixture control doesn't raise the EGT much or temp falls off quick it's due to a lean mixture.

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 01-07-2020 at 11:33 PM.

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    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    When a bunch of us, used to wolf hunt out of the Wasilia/ Willow area, most of us used -25, as our cut off point.
    I did do a little flying at -30 and it was
    pretty unpleasent to put it mildly. Even with long very flat approaches, running quite alot of power, shocking to the clyinders was evident on the Cly head guage. I would guess ONE normal approach where you reduced
    power to idle on downwind and turning onto final would have easily "super shocked" your clyinders enough to start cracking from a guide hole over to a sparkplug opening.......
    We normally had to run the coolers compleately blocked off and eyebrows taped off atleast 50% just to
    operate at -20 below. Cant imagine running my own 0 320 in -40/-60 temps unless I had lots of new clyinders on the shelf, as I am darn sure you would be using them!!!

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  24. #24
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    It takes some experimenting with blocking cooling air to operate in cold. Closing the cowl's outlets to the cold has worked best for me. Blocking the inlet will also reduce overcooling but we have to be careful not to create hot spots downstream. On a couple Citabrias I installed locally made adjustable aluminum front baffles that fit in the air intakes. They could be expanded sideways to restrict downstream flow. I added an adjustable cowl flap to finish the kit. Good for -40F. On the Cubs I closed off the side and eyebrow cowl outlets plus restricted the lower by 50%. Adding a cockpit adjustable oil cooler cover kept that fluid warm. Then I followed Cessna's approach with their C-172's and installed front cylinder baffles about 1/2-2/3 up from the bottom behind the cowl inlets to force cooling airflow up, over, then down rather than a direct blast.

    As far as power warm the engine and takeoff by gradually adding power. Let the piston and cylinder warm together to reduce any interference fit and piston scoring. Landing never reduce power to idle until parked and carry some all the way to landing...again gradually reducing throttle. I've yet to crack a cylinder on Lycs and Continentals in winter and have run several to TBO in seasonal cold.

    Gary

    Here's a quick screen grab of Cessna'a approach to front baffles. Note they are raised up in front of the head and cylinder. A 4-point EGT/CHT will confirm uniform temps.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 01-10-2020 at 02:31 PM.

  25. #25
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboBeaver View Post
    When a bunch of us, used to wolf hunt out of the Wasilia/ Willow area, most of us used -25, as our cut off point.
    I did do a little flying at -30 and it was
    pretty unpleasent to put it mildly. Even with long very flat approaches, running quite alot of power, shocking to the clyinders was evident on the Cly head guage. I would guess ONE normal approach where you reduced
    power to idle on downwind and turning onto final would have easily "super shocked" your clyinders enough to start cracking from a guide hole over to a sparkplug opening.......
    We normally had to run the coolers compleately blocked off and eyebrows taped off atleast 50% just to
    operate at -20 below. Cant imagine running my own 0 320 in -40/-60 temps unless I had lots of new clyinders on the shelf, as I am darn sure you would be using them!!!

    Sent from my LM-X210 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    I never blocked any inlets after that first winter with the Cessna kit on a 185, which was a uniquely bad idea. No cabin heat, no defrost, and you had to stay down in the VERY cold air to keep CHTs from going high.

    After that, the 185 had about 1/2 to 2/3 covered in duct tape. That was the winter kit. Period.

    Super Cubs, I fabricated and installed baffles to block off the aft end of the side cheeks, and covered the oil cooler. I never blocked air from the front of the cowling. like never.

    Huskys, don't have that big wide open cheek opening on the side cowl. They do have "gills" on lower part of cowl. All I ever did with Huskys was to block off the oil cooler.

    Never changed a cylinder before TBO on a Cub or Husky. Lycoming built and overhauled engines. Lycoming NEVER re-uses cylinders....no overhauled cylinders from them, ever.

    The 185 I flew for over 3500 hours, had one new engine, two overhauled, we changed a total of four cylinders, two of those after a hot shot borrowed the plane for a week......

    Those airplanes regularly operated in very cold temperatures each winter. Winter meant skis.

    We did not use junk cylinders. You exchange a cylinder for an "overhauled" cylinder, and you have no idea how much time, and how many cycles have been put on that cylinder. One Continental tech rep told me once that the whole concept of "shock cooling" may in fact be largely a function of waaaay too many cycles on cylinders that should have been junked. His point was that cylinder heads in particular go through heat cycles and eventually, the metal gets brittle. Then things break.

    After we quit using "overhauled" cylinders on our Cessnas, the rate of cylinder replacement decreased significantly.

    But, in any case, the old adage "Don't do anything stupid" applies to managing an engine in very cold weather as well as the rest of aviation.

    Frankly, I never really had many engine issues in very cold weather. But, if you do, things can go sideways pretty quick at -40.

    MTV

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