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Thread: New pilot considering a 11 project

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    New pilot considering a 11 project

    Been lurking for a while and have decided a pa11 will fit my mission quite well. I am wanting to build an experamental light sport. Have talked to Jay at javeron breifly regarding 1/3 welded fusalage. One of my biggest questions is the power plant. The Yamaha Apex engine has incredible performance has anybody installed one on a cub based aircraft yet? I would also enjoy to hear and tips or advice you guys can throw my way. Thanks.
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  2. #2

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    get a supercub frame instead, i bet there is much difference in price? or weight.
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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    I have over 2200 Pa11 hrs in 4 different 11s.When my 11 was restored in 2002 we converted it to supercub seats and top deck. The elevator stick controls were changed to SC also to give me the SC baggage, I had about 1100hrs in it before rebuild. I'm 6' so wanted the higher top deck and seats and larger baggage. It was perfect and just what I wanted, but, it didn't fly quite as nice as it did before. One of my friends who had flown it many times before told me after he flew the " new "version that I had " ruined it " Last 600 cub hrs have been in my Ex Pa18-0200 that I bought 5 years ago and I love it, but it's not my 11.
    If you under 5'10 and want one of the sweetest flying Cubs ever built do the 11 and keep it simple and light. I'm happy what I fly today but still have wet dreams about my ole 11.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  4. #4

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    I doubt you will find much love for Yamahas here. Great engines but just not common on legacy airframes.
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    I have over 2200 Pa11 hrs in 4 different 11s.When my 11 was restored in 2002 we converted it to supercub seats and top deck. The elevator stick controls were changed to SC also to give me the SC baggage, I had about 1100hrs in it before rebuild. I'm 6' so wanted the higher top deck and seats and larger baggage. It was perfect and just what I wanted, but, it didn't fly quite as nice as it did before. One of my friends who had flown it many times before told me after he flew the " new "version that I had " ruined it " Last 600 cub hrs have been in my Ex Pa18-0200 that I bought 5 years ago and I love it, but it's not my 11.
    If you under 5'10 and want one of the sweetest flying Cubs ever built do the 11 and keep it simple and light. I'm happy what I fly today but still have wet dreams about my ole 11.

    Glenn

    glenn, would you go without flaps again? dont know anything about yamahas but i always wanted to see if a 915 rotax on a cub frame could climb to 20000+.
    Last edited by tempdoug; 01-02-2020 at 07:36 PM.

  6. #6
    Waldo M's Avatar
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    I've flown a stock PA-11 for a long time and it is one of my favorite airplanes. We have always striven to keep it light to preserve the nice flying characteristics.

    We converted the Continental A65-8 engine to a C90-8F four years ago. The empty weight increased slightly to 775 pounds but that did not spoil the aircraft handling. It does increase the fun factor, though.

    In my opinion, flaps are unnecessary on a PA-11. A slip with full rudder deflection will provide a steep approach path and you can avoid the build complexity, weight, and extra drag created by the retracted flaps in the bargain.

    I have flown several PA-18-150s on long delivery trips and worked PA-18A sprayers. They are truly great airplanes but they don't fly as nice as a PA-11.

    I can't speak to the Yamaha engine as I don't know anything about them. I would be interested to know what the dry weight of the engine plus radiator and coolant weight is. The dry weight of a C90-8F is 184 pounds according to the Type Certificate Data Sheet.

    As regards to the build, there are three things to remember; 1. Keep it light, 2. Keep it light, and 3. Keep it light.
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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    I ruined (for me) a PA-11 C90-8 by adding flaps. Adds 20 some pounds and the PA-18 balanced tail the STC required made that end heavy. A Pacer balanced tail would be lighter. The flaps did little for takeoff except at the very last moment on floats - maybe. Landing slow and short at under 35 was great, but any flaps before takeoff added too much drag for me and the 90 engine/long prop didn't have enough poop to fly only the flapped section before the rest of the wing was ready. We did remove the previously installed Ferguson droop tips, VG's, 80# cover job, and restored the stock wing configuration. Didn't feel the need for the VG's. I flew it before and after the mods on wheels, skis, and floats and should have left it stock. It weighed 890 on wheels when done with larger baggage, flaps/big tail, light interior, and light Stits cover. Just my experience and others may differ.

    Edit: The flaps added were extended into the fuselage. I felt no adverse activity from the tail due to the extra length. Any deflection over approx 12-15* could be felt as a sudden drag on floats with a slight loss in water speed at the same planing angle. I had a third notch cut at 12. I was convinced it took more power for flaps than my fresh ovhld C-90-8 and 74-40 Sen produced. As a note that same prop on my current Taylorcraft C-85 Stroker (C-90 internal parts equivalent) with C-150 exhaust turns up 110+ static over the PA-11.

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 01-02-2020 at 11:54 PM.
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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tempdoug View Post
    glenn, would you go without flaps again? dont know anything about yamahas but i always wanted to see if a 915 rotax on a cub frame could climb to 20000+.
    I always thought I would like flaps, but 99.9% of my 4400 cub hrs are flapless. 2 summers ago I got to fly Stu's C90 J3 with flaps out of Seldovia Ak. Solo and with my wife for 4 or 5 hrs. I felt right at home in his Cub and NEVER touched the flap handle. I guess I was afraid I might like them. I really love to slip hard, every landing not just the hard ones. I even have SC flaps hanging in my rafters but not sure why?
    I guess my thought is that if your used to flaps then it would be hard to learn to fly without them.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  9. #9

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    I welded the flap brackets in my 11 and never put the flaps on so just added weight that is unnecessary. Just purchased a 11 project to rebuild and pay attention to detail and keep it as light as possible considering a c-85-12 stroker or c-90-12 as I'm headed down the other side of the hill and may want a starter in the future. I would recommend wing extension but not droop tips I love mine but others feel different about them. here is a video of my 11 with floats it's at the 3 minute mark. and no Glenn this wasn't the year the girl beat us .Greenville Maine International Seaplane Fly in 2010 - YouTubehttps://www.youtube.com › watch.
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  10. #10
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    So can you explain why the PA11 meets your mission but you are concidering the Apex engine. Seem to be both ends of the spectrum. PA11 is a light simple, low powered 2nd version of the J3 which is a wonderful airplane with an A65 or even better with a C90. When I think of the Apex I think of Steve Henry and his crew tweaking and mapping this beast for Stol contests.
    Steve Pierce

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  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douten View Post
    keep it as light as possible considering a c-85-12 stroker or c-90-12 as I'm headed down the other side of the hill and may want a starter in the future.
    Nice option we all have now, put the starter on the engine, but no battery. Simply install a pigtail of 10 or 8ga wire to plug a jump pack onto when you want to go play. No master switches, no generator, just the starter and one pound or less of wire for the one pound jump pack that travels in your pocket. You will also have a button on the panel to energize the starter.
    You will want a modern starter for it's lower current draw rather than the 1930s pig iron that was originally on the engines.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    So can you explain why the PA11 meets your mission but you are concidering the Apex engine. Seem to be both ends of the spectrum. PA11 is a light simple, low powered 2nd version of the J3 which is a wonderful airplane with an A65 or even better with a C90. When I think of the Apex I think of Steve Henry and his crew tweaking and mapping this beast for Stol contests.
    There are carbureted versions of those engines as well. Not that they would or should be considered simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 84832 View Post
    Been lurking for a while and have decided a pa11 will fit my mission quite well. I am wanting to build an experamental light sport. Have talked to Jay at javeron breifly regarding 1/3 welded fusalage. One of my biggest questions is the power plant. The Yamaha Apex engine has incredible performance has anybody installed one on a cub based aircraft yet? I would also enjoy to hear and tips or advice you guys can throw my way. Thanks.
    curious to whats your mission?

  14. #14
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84832 View Post
    Been lurking for a while and have decided a pa11 will fit my mission quite well. I am wanting to build an experamental light sport. Have talked to Jay at javeron breifly regarding 1/3 welded fusalage. One of my biggest questions is the power plant. The Yamaha Apex engine has incredible performance has anybody installed one on a cub based aircraft yet? I would also enjoy to hear and tips or advice you guys can throw my way. Thanks.
    Few Questions:

    1. Do you want to build or fly?
    2. Is light sport a requirement?
    3. Where are you located?
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  15. #15
    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    My 2 cents would be a pa11 fus & wings with a pa18 top deck for more baggage and headroom. Pa18 front seat. Pa20 balanced feathers. Ceconite 102 with 1 coat of paint on everything, except the bottom surfaces, which would get 101 fabric. Keep interior bare bones. A c90 with ported/polished intake and exhaust, with the good cam, pushin a 73" balanced prop ( mabe catto?) Keep her light, tight, useful(but comfortable), effeciant, and mo powa! Dont forget double groove pullys, save yourself the headache in the long run.
    "There are 3 kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." Will Rogers
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  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Special Ed View Post
    My 2 cents would be a pa11 fus & wings with a pa18 top deck for more baggage and headroom. Pa18 front seat. Pa20 balanced feathers. Ceconite 102 with 1 coat of paint on everything, except the bottom surfaces, which would get 101 fabric. Keep interior bare bones. A c90 with ported/polished intake and exhaust, with the good cam, pushin a 73" balanced prop ( mabe catto?) Keep her light, tight, useful(but comfortable), effeciant, and mo powa! Dont forget double groove pullys, save yourself the headache in the long run.
    flaps?

  17. #17
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Special Ed View Post
    My 2 cents would be a pa11 fus & wings with a pa18 top deck for more baggage and headroom. Pa18 front seat. Pa20 balanced feathers. Ceconite 102 with 1 coat of paint on everything, except the bottom surfaces, which would get 101 fabric. Keep interior bare bones. A c90 with ported/polished intake and exhaust, with the good cam, pushin a 73" balanced prop ( mabe catto?) Keep her light, tight, useful(but comfortable), effeciant, and mo powa! Dont forget double groove pullys, save yourself the headache in the long run.
    Might as well start with a 18-90 frame if your going to change an 11 frame to 18

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    You guys have great insight. Light sport is not a requirement but experamental is. Building is important to me, another month or so and my current project will be finished and being able to do a project in stages fits the budget. About 10k a year for projects. I expected resistance regarding the Yamaha. Compete wet firewall forwards are being built around the 160 lb mark. 150 horse and efi was intriguing for the cost. Have the engine already. Was planning to do a kitfox and after flying in one becided the side by side seating wasn't the best configuration for my plans. Mainly flying around looking at animals. And a few trips to the desert for bird hunting. I'm located in southern Oregon. The 11 caught my eye mainly because of how nice everybody says they fly of kept light.
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  19. #19
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    I know there are builders having success with that Yamaha engine but if you want a great flying PA11 a C-90 is ideal and when you get to the burnout stage in building there are dozens of vendor parts to expedite the build.

    Edit: I would like to see what a cowl for the Yamaha would look like on a narrow cub airframe with the PSRU and everything to make it run. Would be like gift wrapping an elephant.
    Last edited by Cub junkie; 01-03-2020 at 09:04 PM.
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  20. #20

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    be fun to see one with a yamaha on it. ive wanted to see one with a rotax on it.

  21. #21
    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tempdoug View Post
    flaps?
    Nope
    "There are 3 kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." Will Rogers

  22. #22
    Cub Special Ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    Might as well start with a 18-90 frame if your going to change an 11 frame to 18

    Glenn
    18 is a little heavier in the boot cowl area.
    "There are 3 kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." Will Rogers

  23. #23
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Special Ed View Post
    18 is a little heavier in the boot cowl area.
    So will the 11 frame after you change the torque tubes to fit the 18 top deck

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  24. #24
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    l look at these experimental engines like the Yahmaha like this, neat that someone else wants to take the time to figure it all out and possibly get some performance gain but I would prefer to fly so I will go with tried and true.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

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    is the yamaha turboed?

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    I have been dormant on my 11 build through all (or most) of 2019....caring for my sick father and building a new hangar kept me very busy. Dad has passed and the hangar is done, so time to get rolling. I have much of what was talked about here in my build. 11 frame, PA20 tail feathers, O200, Catto prop (76-36)..TK1 shocks, 26” ultra light ABWs. No flaps, aluminum spar/vgs...adjustable front seat( which is heavy) May go with standard if it doesn’t give the utility I want...I have slightly extended baggage w/external baggage door( a little heavy) ��*♂️. Hopefully when finished it won’t be too darn heavy. I have a thread in Experimental build section under Building an Experimental PA11. Now, time to get cracking...if you have any questions I’m glad to help if I can.

  27. #27
    WWhunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84832 View Post
    You guys have great insight. Light sport is not a requirement but experamental is. Building is important to me, another month or so and my current project will be finished and being able to do a project in stages fits the budget. About 10k a year for projects. I expected resistance regarding the Yamaha. Compete wet firewall forwards are being built around the 160 lb mark. 150 horse and efi was intriguing for the cost. Have the engine already. Was planning to do a kitfox and after flying in one becided the side by side seating wasn't the best configuration for my plans. Mainly flying around looking at animals. And a few trips to the desert for bird hunting. I'm located in southern Oregon. The 11 caught my eye mainly because of how nice everybody says they fly of kept light.
    There is a a FB group that is dedicated to the Yamaha engines/conversion. A friend is just got his Kitfox flying with one, and I will say I am impressed. His plane is on Full Lotus Floats and he did the first flights just a couple of weeks ago from a frozen lake. Rougly a foot+ of snow covered ice and he was off very quickly! Very smoth running and gobs of power. Lightweight is a big plus. I think he has his a bit de-tuned running it around 120HP if I recall.

    I think there is a guy building a RANS S-7 with the Apex engine. Might be another option over the PA-11. I looked at several -11's over the years and really like them, but ended up with a nice RANS S-7 and think it is a little roomier and will do anything the -11 will.

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    Looked at the range and it looks like a great platform. And would have ordered a fusalage kit yesterday but the wait time is 12 to 16 months. After sitting in a 11 have decided to go with a super cub fusalage, don't see any advantage of a 11 with 18 top dech but might be wrong. That's what you guys are for. Talked to vr3 engineering regarding a 18 fusalage kit. Have been told that there kits are so precise that a jog is not needed. What do you think?

  29. #29
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    No real difference between a PA11 and a PA18 fuselage other than the top deck.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

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    Any suggestions of wing manufactures?

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by 84832 View Post
    Any suggestions of wing manufactures?

    get a wing kit from jay. and put it together yourself.

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by 84832 View Post
    Looked at the range and it looks like a great platform. And would have ordered a fusalage kit yesterday but the wait time is 12 to 16 months. After sitting in a 11 have decided to go with a super cub fusalage, don't see any advantage of a 11 with 18 top dech but might be wrong. That's what you guys are for. Talked to vr3 engineering regarding a 18 fusalage kit. Have been told that there kits are so precise that a jog is not needed. What do you think?
    if you build your frame thats also going to take some time, depends on your talent. and time for project. and cash. and also wanted to add, think about the wider frame, interested how much more weight the wide frame is over standard. ive never heard of a wide frame hurting anything performance wise.
    Last edited by tempdoug; 01-07-2020 at 10:30 PM.

  33. #33

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    Building the basic fuselage frame from a VR3 kit should be pretty easy. Just remember that once the frame is together, you have about double the work adding all the various fittings. There is a saying with homebuilt airplanes (and restorations as well), when you are 90% done, you still have 90% to go.

    I would suggest starting with either the frame or a wing, finish that before putting the money out for the next assembly. There are thousands of unfinished airplane kits out there! Life changes, and if you buy everything up front and you get side tracked you will have a large investment that if you try and sell you will only get pennies on the dollar.


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  34. #34
    Alex Clark's Avatar
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    I flew a J3C/PA-11 hybrid via Atless STCs for a long time and with flapless straight wings and a C90-8 it was the nicest flying plane I have ever crawled into. Great on wheels, skis and floats.
    It was a great plane for teaching tailwheel flying to low time pilots.
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