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Thread: New PPONK

  1. #1

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    New PPONK

    All,
    Time to start thinking about a new engine for the 73 c-180J. I have read the treads and called two shops. Barrett Performance aircraft engines and Ly-Con. Interestingly Barrett, though not on the approved list, was interested in building the engine however..... after waiting 2 months for a quote and making 4 phone calls to check and see why no quote was made it appears obvious that that is not going to work out.

    Ly-Con was my first choice. It’s seems however good the engines are they are unreliable in terms of delivery. They have been reasonably responsive in answering questions.

    Is there another reputable option out there? Is Ly-Con still a worthy contender for my dollar?
    . I really don’t have to have the engine by a date but would like to have it by some date.

    If there are recent experiences with Ly-Con I would appreciate you sharing. It seems everyone likes the PPONK and I am committed to that direction over other options but would like to feel confident of the vendor I am doing business with.

    Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this.
    trust but verify

  2. #2

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    You can buy an IO520D from the factory and have 7.5/1 (TSIO 520) pistons put in it, and change the intake plenum ("U" model I believe but don't remember exactly) and you have a Pponk O470-50. Or there are many other variations to get to that point if you wish. The preceding is what I've done the last 3 times. They work, but the carbs are always different and the idle mixture is difficult to figure out, except way rich and taxi with the mixture pulled back, like an injected 520. I run mine between 40 and 50 F on carb intake constantly and lean for about 1450 on the hottest one. Every carb i've had on these has been different.. even the same one after overhaul..
    As for Ly Con and increased power.. you get it from torque or rpm. Since the rpm is limited, then it must be more torque.. ask for a torque curve before and after.. I'd love to see one.
    Jose
    Jose
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  3. #3

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    Get the approved engine builder list from the new STC holder and shop them. I’ve read Steve Knopp is still building engines.

    I’d check with Texas Skyways. Same end result except approved with 8.5-1 IO-520 pistons from the start.
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  4. #4
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Call Texas Skyways. https://www.txskyways.com/services They are wonderful people to do business with. I am a happy customer.
    N1PA
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  5. #5
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    From flying pponked and texas skyways 180's just a seat of the pants feel, but the texas skyways feels like it has more power.
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  6. #6

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    time to pass the torch!
    we have sold our super eagle o-470-50 stcs which will now be provided through northpoint aviation of brainerd mn. In the future, you will see the engine marketed as the northpoint xp470. For stcs and additional information including currently authorized engine builders, please contact joe birkemeyer at northpoint: 218 829-3398 joeb@northpointaviation.net
    the following o-470-50 engine information is still posted on our website as a convenience during the transition. P ponk aviation will continue building engines, but at a slower pace.



  7. #7

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    Several of us can sing the praises of the engine mod but now that PPonk sold the STC, our collective experience with the process is irrelevant.

    Think hard about the prop you’ll choose. That’s what makes it go.

  8. #8
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Sent an O-340 into LyCon in early June for cam, followers and cylinder work. Got it back the first of Sept. They did some custom intake work to even out temperatures on the test cell that they had been seeing on other O-340s. Ran great and has made the customer happy which makes the mechanic happy.
    Steve Pierce

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  9. #9
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Several of us can sing the praises of the engine mod but now that PPonk sold the STC, our collective experience with the process is irrelevant.
    ...
    I believe that the mod uses all standard continental parts,
    so IMHO it's more about the engine builder & the care they take.
    I'd think having a different name on the STC paperwork would be irrelevant.
    I see the OP is from northern Colorado.
    I know a couple guys who've had overhauls done at Western Skyways in Montrose,
    and they were both pleased with the results.
    Northpoint's website seems to be down, so I dunno if WS is on the approved ponk builder list.
    But if they are, maybe a trip to visit in person with the WS folks
    & check out their facilities is in order?

    http://www.westernskyways.com/O-470/
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Get the approved engine builder list from the new STC holder and shop them. I’ve read Steve Knopp is still building engines.

    I’d check with Texas Skyways. Same end result except approved with 8.5-1 IO-520 pistons from the start.
    If you could keep your 8.5 pistons that would be great. Then all you have to do to an IO520D would be to change the intake. Steve said a "U" (I think, don't remember) style balance tube made them run better also.
    Tearing down a perfectly good engine to replace the pistons has always been one of the main drawbacks to this engine, at least for me..
    Jose

  11. #11

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    And his '73 probably has an R motor so the crank won't work. Whether to convert what you own or build from a core is always a consideration. Texas Skyways always starts with IO-520s so no conversion option there.

  12. #12
    mvivion's Avatar
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    What about the Kenmore O-520 STC?

    MTV
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  13. #13

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    Friend of mine just flew his newly re-engined 1956 180 into my strip today. Texas Skyways engine. He loves the engine. Runs really smooth. He said at 6,000 ft running 23 squared he was in the bottom of the yellow arc. Did have a couple of issues with the mod. He was told his old prop would work, but turns out it wouldn't. Had to have another prop. Ordered a new engine mount which wouldn't fit for some reason. They said it had to do with subtle differences in certain serial numbered airplanes. They had never done a 1956 model before. Overall he's happy.

  14. #14
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Curious which "Texas Skyways engine"?
    One they OH'd to stock specs, a conversion to a carb'd 520, or what?
    I think they offer a carb'ed 550 also.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  15. #15

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    All I know is it is a Continental 0-470U, 250 HP (263 on the test stand) and he turned in his engine as a core. If you want further info, I'll contact him for more specifics. He sent me a pic of his panel going home. 2300 RPM, 22.6 MP, 7,000 ft cruise altitude, 6° C, 157 kts indicated, 64% HP, fuel flow 16.3 GPH. And a different McCauley propeller...

  16. #16
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWE View Post
    All I know is it is a Continental 0-470U, 250 HP ...... 2300 RPM, 22.6 MP, 7,000 ft cruise altitude, 6° C, 157 kts indicated, 64% HP, fuel flow 16.3 GPH...
    That is a high fuel flow for that amount of power under those conditions.
    N1PA

  17. #17
    Bowie's Avatar
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    Cessna engine STC's are out of my wheelhouse so excuse any ignorance, but it might be worth a call to John or Victor at Victor Aviation. Victor recently reincarnated my Lycoming O-540 as a Victor Black VII. Communication was excellent, turn around was quick, warranty is tops and the results IMHO were worth the cost. Excellent power and very smooth.

    https://www.victor-aviation.com/Black_Editions_XR.php
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  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by JWE View Post
    All I know is it is a Continental 0-470U, 250 HP (263 on the test stand) and he turned in his engine as a core. If you want further info, I'll contact him for more specifics. He sent me a pic of his panel going home. 2300 RPM, 22.6 MP, 7,000 ft cruise altitude, 6° C, 157 kts indicated, 64% HP, fuel flow 16.3 GPH. And a different McCauley propeller...
    You sure that wasn’t ground speed? Vne on an early 180 is 160 kts. 157 kts indicated is absolutely screaming.

  19. #19

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    I remember breaking my Pponk in with 850s and an 8” tailwheel. Scuddy weather so flying up and down the Big Su at 1000’ ASL. Full power level cruise 185mph. My little GPS 90 validated it. Zoom zoom. 520 power is the best mod a 180 guy can do.
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  20. #20
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    60% power with fluidine wheel skis is 145mph true as of today. 22 squared. It’s faster on bushwheels.


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  21. #21
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    I remember breaking my Pponk in with 850s and an 8” tailwheel. Scuddy weather so flying up and down the Big Su at 1000’ ASL. Full power level cruise 185mph. My little GPS 90 validated it. Zoom zoom. 520 power is the best mod a 180 guy can do.
    I remember the first PPonk I installed, told rex to circle the field... he didn't hear that part...

    an hour? later he returned, had went up to Cantwell and back..... he said he was in the Yellow arc whole way... he was all smiles...

    boy was I worried!! 1994??

    a couple years later we removed the carb and added the bendix fuel injection....

  22. #22

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    All,
    Thanks for the input. To clarify, after talking to Texas Skyways they do have a nice product and it may yet work though they are some margin more expensive and don't quote a core credit. My current engine will remain on the wagon until swap out. It’s a very good running -R on an older overhaul by Dick Demars. Knopp sent a kind email but expressed no interest in building the engine at this point in the PPONK handoff.

    Mainly asking for shop recommendations for the PPONK at this point. FWIW I am running a Mt 2 blade-15-D210-58. Ly-Con was the name I was most familiar with.

    Thanks as always.
    trust but verify
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  23. #23
    windknot54's Avatar
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    Premier Aircraft Engines in Troutdale, Oregon completed the 0-470-50 conversion in my 1973 180J. I converted the R model engine and so required a new crankshaft. They also re-jetted the carburetor and fuel flow is perfect. I was happy with the process; the communication and documentation was excellent. The engine is running great after 300 hours. The overhaul took about 12 weeks - apparently, good shops are very busy.


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  24. #24

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    cannon and skywagon8a

    I stand corrected. His G5 was showing 157 MPH, not knots. The ground speed was showing 145 KTS. Didn't realize they were set up to show differently. And the 16.3 GPH was before he leaned. He says when leaned out he normally shows 13.7 to 14.3 GPH.
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  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by pokey View Post
    Mainly asking for shop recommendations for the PPONK at this point. FWIW I am running a Mt 2 blade-15-D210-58. Ly-Con was the name I was most familiar with.

    Thanks as always.
    If and when you contact Northpoint you’ll be able to enlighten us. It isn’t Pponk anymore. I’m curious whether they’ve changed their engine shop relationships or anything else about the STC.

  26. #26

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    I would recommend Lawson Aviation. I bought my IO 520 converted to Pponk from Knopp. Steve helped with the approval of the hi compression pistons but couldn’t help with approval of my C66 88” prop. Lawson got my prop approval even though I didn’t get my engine from them. I have two friends who used Lawson and have been happy with their engines.

  27. #27
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by windknot54 View Post
    Premier Aircraft Engines in Troutdale, Oregon completed the 0-470-50 conversion in my 1973 180J. I converted the R model engine and so required a new crankshaft. They also re-jetted the carburetor and fuel flow is perfect. I was happy with the process; the communication and documentation was excellent. The engine is running great after 300 hours. The overhaul took about 12 weeks - apparently, good shops are very busy.
    That's good to hear, thanks for posting.
    I'm probably looking at an overhaul in a year or two,
    and they're on my short list.
    Part of that is because they're within easy driving / flying distance.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  28. #28
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Premier in Troutdale was involved in my O-320 overhaul. They were busy but responsive and very helpful. I would go to them again without reservation.
    Gordon

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  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by JWE View Post
    2300 RPM, 22.6 MP, 7,000 ft cruise altitude, 6° C, 157 kts indicated, 64% HP, fuel flow 16.3 GPH. And a different McCauley propeller...
    7000 feet and able to pull 22.6" mp? Maybe 21".

  30. #30
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 180_jeff View Post
    7000 feet and able to pull 22.6" mp? Maybe 21".
    You lose approx. an inch per 1,000 feet, right?
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  31. #31

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    Correct, by the Cont. intake system loses 1-2" right off the get-go. So, for example, at sea level at WOT most you will see is around 28".

  32. #32

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    Just reading from the JPI engine monitor. 22.6 MP. If I could figure out how to post a picture I would. Not saying it's correct. Just saying that's what the JPI reads...
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  33. #33
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    You lose approx. an inch per 1,000 feet, right?
    Also if you reduce the rpm, you will gain about 1/2" mp/-100 rpm. So considering 28"/2700 rpm @sea level. @ 7000 ft 28" - 7" = 21" 2700 rpm - 400 then add 2" (4x1/2)= 23". 22.6" is not out of line.
    N1PA
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  34. #34
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    I would not buy a new or reman from continental right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by behindpropellers View Post
    I would not buy a new or reman from continental right now.
    Cryptic statement.
    Is this a long-held belief, or based on recent input?
    Is it possible for you to provide more detail?
    I've purchased more than a few, and another on the way... just curious.
    Perhaps there is some new flaw to be aware of.. any heads up on that would be helpful.
    Thanks,
    Jose
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  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by 46 Cub View Post
    Cryptic statement.
    Is this a long-held belief, or based on recent input?
    Is it possible for you to provide more detail?
    I've purchased more than a few, and another on the way... just curious.
    Perhaps there is some new flaw to be aware of.. any heads up on that would be helpful.
    Thanks,
    Jose
    Whole lengthy thread on BT talk on this topic right now. You might want to check it out.

  37. #37

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    Why not share your thoughts here? Anyone have recent experience with Continental? I’ve shared my recent experience with Lycoming. With respect to the topic? Factory issues don’t apply.

  38. #38
    gbflyer's Avatar
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    Not sure if they build the PPONK but the PROAERO shop in Kamloops B.C. is real good. They build a lot of engines for Alaska. Might be worth a call. Recently bought an equipment attachment in Canada. Freight was reasonable and the exchange is in our favor.

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Why not share your thoughts here? Anyone have recent experience with Continental? I’ve shared my recent experience with Lycoming. With respect to the topic? Factory issues don’t apply.
    https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/vie...75756&start=60

  40. #40
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    This is a log-in page to a registered forum. Not very informative.
    N1PA
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