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Informal ADS-B Survey Results Posted!

sj

sj

Staff member
Northwest Arkansas
If you read the newsletter, you saw I am conducting an anonymous, informal survey on ADS-B compliance among us. You can take the survey here.

IDEALLY, you will be able to answer within the existing choices rather than adding your own "other" for clarification, as this makes the summary more readable. I will be publishing the results next week sometime right here. So far, about 140 have responded and the results are interesting.

Thanks!

sj

Click here to Jump to the Survey Results:
 
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Well, I installed, but it got excluded by FAA. So I’m not permitted in airspace till I get it fixed. No option for that in survey. Put
 
So how do you know when it is fixed if you cannot make a test flight? And as far as I can tell, you are permitted to fly transponder only until next year.

Dunno where the survey is, but I will be doing two tailbeacons in February.
 
Grandfathered with three Cubs. One Cub has an alternator, and just got the receptacle welded into the rudder, and of course my Decathlon is "in the club" - not grandfathered from the get-go.
 
mvivion said:
Well, I installed, but it got excluded by FAA. So I’m not permitted in airspace till I get it fixed. No option for that in survey. Put
Click to expand...

i think that is the survey that I’m most interested in. How many users are getting this notice from the feds and what equipment they are using. Are they using similar equipment?

Ive equipped one of my cubs using the Garmin GTX345 without any issues.......yet.
 
My Garmin GTX335 passed initially with no flags. I asked for another performance report last week. It too was clean.
cubpilot2 said:
i think that is the survey that I’m most interested in. How many users are getting this notice from the feds and what equipment they are using. Are they using similar equipment?

Ive equipped one of my cubs using the Garmin GTX345 without any issues.......yet.
Click to expand...
 
cubpilot2 said:
i think that is the survey that I’m most interested in. How many users are getting this notice from the feds and what equipment they are using. Are they using similar equipment?
Click to expand...

I’m in the same boat, J3 is grandfathered and not planning on doing my 182 yet. I live 20 miles away from the Mode C veil and usually steer around it when traveling, and local flying is rarely over 1000 ft msl with stops at unregistered strips. If I’m gonna be getting flagged all the time like others have mentioned, I’ll just go without.
 
Here's a question. Just about every ADS-B thread evolves into another complaint thread about big brother watching, government mandating expensive equipment, etc. I have the full meal deal in one plane and am undecided about the second. I think the technology is excellent but the implementation is flawed. So......

Is anyone who's installed a full system or just added an Out solution happy with it? What do you like?
 
My opinion - - I consider the enhanced tracking to be an asset rather than an invasion. Heck, I can always turn it off if there's a reason.

The Skybeacon has given me flight following where I'm out of radar coverage in the Cascades - over hostile terrain where I really appreciate flight following.

Another instance, last fall cleared thru the Salt Lake Class B, controllers wanted me on an accurate altitude and were complaining about discrepancy between my Mode C encoder and my altimeter. However, when I asked, they said my ADSB signal agreed with my assigned altitude (and altimeter).

Also, N-number and type aircraft show up on the controller's screen, which makes initiating comms and flight following a little easier.

And of course I'm reporting myself to other aircraft who have ADSB in. Flying with a buddy recently we lost visual with each other, but he had me on his ADSB in.

Overall, I like what it provides. I recently purchased a GDL 52, but haven't flown with it yet. I'm looking forward to "in" capability.
 
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I'm about 14 miles outside of SEA's mode C veil,
I could avoid it (and class B & C airspace) as a short term solution,
but it would cramp my style to do so on a long term basis.
I installed an ADS-B out-only Tailbeacon in my C180,
I'm not a firm believer in the pro-s vs cons of ADS-B in so didn't opt to get it.
Passed my initial PAPR test to get my rebate,
have done some follow-on checks since & it always comes back clean.
I have mine set to anonymous mode, maybe that helps?
​
 
Gordon Misch said:
My opinion - - I consider the enhanced tracking to be an asset rather than an invasion. Heck, I can always turn it off if there's a reason.

The Skybeacon has given me flight following where I'm out of radar coverage in the Cascades - over hostile terrain where I really appreciate flight following.

Another instance, last fall cleared thru the Salt Lake Class B, controllers wanted me on an accurate altitude and were complaining about discrepancy between my Mode C encoder and my altimeter. However, when I asked, they said my ADSB signal agreed with my assigned altitude (and altimeter).

Also, N-number and type aircraft show up on the controller's screen, which makes initiating comms and flight following a little easier.

And of course I'm reporting myself to other aircraft who have ADSB in. Flying with a buddy recently we lost visual with each other, but he had me on his ADSB in.

Overall, I like what it provides. I recently purchased a GDL 52, but haven't flown with it yet. I'm looking forward to "in" capability.
Click to expand...

Gordon,

First, the regulations prohibit “turning off” an ADS-B transmitter. Which is why this year going into OSH, the notam said leave your transponder on throughout the approach and landing, whereas previous years they wanted all transponders off within a certain distance of OSH.

Second, how is this possible?: “The Skybeacon has given me flight following where I'm out of radar coverage in the Cascades - over hostile terrain where I really appreciate flight following.” Are there that many GBTs in the Cascades, or were you very high?

just curious.

MTV
 
I have Garmin GTX 335 in both the C-182 and the Gullwing Stinson. Flying out of KSGS it is a must.
 
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First, the regulations prohibit “turning off” an ADS-B transmitter. Which is why this year going into OSH, the notam said leave your transponder on throughout the approach and landing, whereas previous years they wanted all transponders off within a certain distance of OSH.

Second, how is this possible?: “The Skybeacon has given me flight following where I'm out of radar coverage in the Cascades - over hostile terrain where I really appreciate flight following.” Are there that many GBTs in the Cascades, or were you very high?

just curious.

MTV
Click to expand...
Good points Mike. If I'm fooling around practicing spot landings or "impossible turns" on a grass strip somewhere, round and round the pattern, I just don't bother turning on the transponder. It would just be clutter to anyone (or computer) observing. Other than that, sure it's on.

Re flight following in the Cascades, I've never been able to stay in radar coverage below 9500 going through White Pass. (MEA, and presumably MVA, is 10,000.) However this past year, I've maintained flight following at 6500. Comms had to be relayed at times, but apparently ATC could "see" me. Admittedly, that's anecdotal, but it did happen.

During a tour of Seattle Center a few months ago, controllers said that lower "coverage" in the Cascades was one of the advantages of ADSB from their point of view.
 
I installed Garmin GTX345 and love it!
No extra devices/wires/batteries necessary for the “ADS-B IN” is very nice.
Traffic and weather into the iPad via ForeFlight has proven to be a great investment in a VFR airplane.
The data being sent to the feds is not my favorite, but if I’m alive because of the better traffic advisories then it’s well worth it.


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
 
Do not make the mistake of thinking that all this magic will prevent a midair collision. It may help you a bit, but not if it keeps your head inside the cockpit.
Opinion.
 
FWIW, I occasionally fly with a gaggle of planes to the proverbial $100 burger, up to six planes. All have ADS-B, two Skybeacons, one Lynx (with diversity), and the rest Garmin. We fly both in and out of radar coverage. They all seem to perform just fine, with no blanking. The only loss of signals occurs when terrain intervenes.
 
Aircraft in formation within 1 mile. Only one should squawk.

sjohnson said:
FWIW, I occasionally fly with a gaggle of planes to the proverbial $100 burger, up to six planes. All have ADS-B, two Skybeacons, one Lynx (with diversity), and the rest Garmin. We fly both in and out of radar coverage. They all seem to perform just fine, with no blanking. The only loss of signals occurs when terrain intervenes.
Click to expand...
 
Wouldn't be clutter to anyone approaching the strip you are using.


Gordon Misch said:
Good points Mike. If I'm fooling around practicing spot landings or "impossible turns" on a grass strip somewhere, round and round the pattern, I just don't bother turning on the transponder. It would just be clutter to anyone (or computer) observing. Other than that, sure it's on.

.
Click to expand...
 
I think Garmin's Target trend is a very useful tool. Could it help avoid a problem? Definitely. I have no idea how other companies display traffic. My problem with ADS-B isn't being tracked. I'm not that special that anyone cares. What bothers me is all the non-participating airplanes don't show up on my screen, and there are lots on non-participants around my area. Partial use of good technology is a waste of good technology. https://www.garmin.com/en-US/blog/aviation/garmin-ads-b-targettrend/

Here's the rub. To me ADS-B Out is like strobes and beacons. I light my planes up to help others see me. I appreciate other planes being illuminated so I can see them. There are guys with no lights and no radios who rely on the rest of us to see them while they do nothing to help. I'll have to keep watching for them. I'm leaning toward adding ADS-B Out to my Cessna sometime in the near future just to help somebody else see me. If that recognition reduces their work load and helps them watch for the invisible guys? Win-win.
 
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Gordon Misch said:
Good points Mike. If I'm fooling around practicing spot landings or "impossible turns" on a grass strip somewhere, round and round the pattern, I just don't bother turning on the transponder. It would just be clutter to anyone (or computer) observing. Other than that, sure it's on......
Click to expand...

This is fine for the txp, not so much for the ADS-B.

txp reg, FAR 91.215

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.215

(c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in ​
paragraph (b)
of this section or in all ​
controlled airspace
, each ​
person
operating an ​
aircraft
equipped with an operable ​
ATC
transponder maintained in accordance with ​
§ 91.413
of this part shall operate the transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed,​

ADS-B reg, FAR 91.225

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225

[/FONT]
(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless - ​
[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB][/FONT]
 
hotrod180 said:
This is fine for the txp, not so much for the ADS-B.

txp reg, FAR 91.215

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.215

(c)Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in ​
paragraph (b)
of this section or in all ​
controlled airspace
, each ​
person
operating an ​
aircraft
equipped with an operable ​
ATC
transponder maintained in accordance with ​
§ 91.413
of this part shall operate the transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed,​

ADS-B reg, FAR 91.225

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.225

(f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times unless - ​
[SUB][/SUB]
Click to expand...

That was my point. There is NO provision in the regs for turning off ADS-B in an Aircraft so equipped while in flight.

That means ALL must be on in a gaggle/formation. And, I don’t believe ATC has authority to tell you otherwise.

And, if you’re in coverage, Big Brother WILL know.

i expect there’ll be a new amendment to that reg fairly soon.

FWIW

MTV
 
Has anyone here been cited for turning it off? Know of any first-hand cases? FSDO told me they didn't care what I did and doubted anyone would notice, but I don't fly where it's required.

Required use of non-required equipment is so stupid only the government could come up with the idea.
 
stewartb said:
Here's the rub. To me ADS-B Out is like strobes and beacons. I light my planes up to help others see me. I appreciate other planes being illuminated so I can see them. There are guys with no lights and no radios who rely on the rest of us to see them while they do nothing to help. I'll have to keep watching for them. I'm leaning toward adding ADS-B Out to my Cessna sometime in the near future just to help somebody else see me. If that recognition reduces their work load and helps them watch for the invisible guys? Win-win.
Click to expand...

I was recently in our Big Lake area heading west. Weather was cloudy and five miles. ADSB warning pops up with target on the nose. I’m running all the lights etc but having a heck of a time seeing this thing. Did not make eye contact until less than quarter mile out he passed off my left side at exact same altitude, and no lights showing. I had started to swing to my right just before seeing him. That warning helped by putting me on very high alert and yes I had been looking for traffic. It was close!

Not sure if I ever would have seen that guy had I been looking the other way.
 
Au Contraire. Moose breath.

"But it also addressed the regulatory dilemma ATC now faces controlling transponder-equipped formation flights: “During the development of this rule, the FAA determined there are circumstances when air traffic control has directed the pilots of non-lead aircraft engaged in formation flights to turn off their transponders” because the overlapping “information elements” on ATC screens “make it difficult to discern information.”
The rule concedes that once formation aircraft are joined up, “it is in the best interest of flight safety to direct subsequent ‘wingmen’ in the flight to squawk stand-by or stop squawk since control instructions are provided to only the lead” aircraft."

The full article. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...ule-sets-safety-exceptions-to-always-on-ads-b


mvivion said:
That was my point. There is NO provision in the regs for turning off ADS-B in an Aircraft so equipped while in flight.

That means ALL must be on in a gaggle/formation. And, I don’t believe ATC has authority to tell you otherwise.

And, if you’re in coverage, Big Brother WILL know.

i expect there’ll be a new amendment to that reg fairly soon.

FWIW

MTV
Click to expand...
 
stewartb said:
So was he broadcasting ADS-B or was his position translated from ANC radar? Can you tell the difference?
Click to expand...

if I had to guess; he was most likely ADSB out only; as he took no corrective action. Don’t know if he saw me. It was another cub.
 
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