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Electric Beaver

The tide changed a year or two ago when natural gas surpassed coal and became the majority fuel source for generating electricity in the USA. At least that's what my teaches energy science to science teachers wife tells me.

The grid has all the power we individuals need. Duplicating power sources with independent engines for multiple vehicles in every household isn't a very efficient way of doing things. God bless the dreamers who want to improve things. That tech may not be ready for prime time today but it's coming.
 
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I agree, training aircraft may be flying with electric motors. However, they ultimately will be running on coal. It just depends on whether you want to burn coal under the cowl or burn it while plugged into the grid on the ground. Either way she’s coal fired.
Well yes - - or gas, or wind, or hydro, or nuke or etc?? Those generation sources are certainly more efficient than our plane engines, however I'd really be interested to know the overall efficiency, fuel to prop.

There are SO many steps, each with its losses, that I don't have a clue and I haven't found anything with a quick online query.

If one tries to figure in the energy used for construction and maintenance of generation and transmission facilities, I bet the bottom-line overall efficiency would be staggeringly low.
 
The tide changed a year or two ago when natural gas surpassed coal and became the majority fuel source for generating electricity in the USA. At least that's what my teaches energy science to science teachers wife tells me.

The grid has all the power we individuals need. Duplicating power sources with independent engines for multiple vehicles in every household isn't a very efficient way of doing things. God bless the dreamers who want to improve things. That tech may not be ready for prime time today but it's coming.
Looking at the sources of power being produced in Alberta and Saskatchewan during the past cold snap, solar and wind were producing almost nothing with coal and natural gas producing 98 or 99% for the grid. Same with a bunch of States. Check out how well a Tesla works in -35C. News producers don’t cover that little annoyance. Yes, things need to improve and they have, look how efficient jet engines have become and they’re getting better. It’ll be from below the surface that powers us for a long long time yet.
 
Well yes - - or gas, or wind, or hydro, or nuke or etc?? Those generation sources are certainly more efficient than our plane engines, however I'd really be interested to know the overall efficiency, fuel to prop.

There are SO many steps, each with its losses, that I don't have a clue and I haven't found anything with a quick online query.

If one tries to figure in the energy used for construction and maintenance of generation and transmission facilities, I bet the bottom-line overall efficiency would be staggeringly low.

I've charged my fat ebike directly off my micro hydro system a few times, (before it's power goes into the grid/runs my meter backwards) JUST so I could say later that day, to the guys I was riding with (who charged their ebikes at home, using utility power) that the same snow we snowboarded and skied on earlier in the year, was powering my ride. Not an exaggeration, what with the ski area above my place and the way the drainage is, a fact. That probably pencils out fairly efficient.

But today I charged the bike in my shop, and this time of year my excess production is nill (hydro is off line for the winter) so I am using up some of my 9,000 KWH utility credit, and it is probably Wyoming coal power. I don't lose any sleep over any of it, but do enjoy making all my own power, having done so now for going on 40 years. I have friends who are former linemen, and have gotten a glimpse into what it takes to keep a power grid going, it is pretty awesome and most take it for granted, I don't, and "store bought" electricity is one hell of a bargain all things considered. I am a prime candidate for a light electric motor glider (former hang glider pilot, with free excess electricity and a 9K ridge line in the backyard), but I like STOL flying more, and need the duration and range only good old gasoline can give.
 
The T Boone Pickens wind corridor power scheme had some bad arithmetic going for it, the power line losses(more than 50%) and its distance from any appreciable load(except Denver) plus the fact that the energy you put into making a wind generator doesn’t get a break-even for about 20 years....after it’s fallen apart....also, 200 birds and 400 bats/month killed(per generator)(as reported.?).....just more of the monumental stupidity rampant in society today...
The new reactors have such an increased safety factor*(due to FINALLY using fail-Safe engineering instead of fail-Deadly), that it enables an economy of scale that allows more local power generation, which reduces the complexity, cost, and large losses of long distance power lines.
However, battery technology still sucks....

*I refer to the thorium-boosted liquid salt fission reactors...
Freeman Dyson redesigned the Farnsworth fusion reactor before he died, and its sitting in a back room at Livermore, being ignored by the fusion laser people. Lockheed may have stolen the idea(electrostatic containment with magnets for the leaky corners) and is developing a military version......
 
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....also, 200 birds and 400 bats/month killed(per generator)(as reported.?)......
I'm against the wind mills as anyone for many reasons, however I just can't cozy up to the idea of birds and bats not being able to avoid fatal collisions. It's not as though the blades are turning at high rpms like a turbine engine.
 
YouTube has a video of a vulture lazily circling until a tip comes down on it. The tip speed on a 60rpm, 200ft dia prop is hard to believe. I get 400mph.
 
YouTube has a video of a vulture lazily circling until a tip comes down on it. The tip speed on a 60rpm, 200ft dia prop is hard to believe. I get 400mph.
I have not seen that video. I have counted the revolutions on the large windmills which are near here and they are well below one revolution per second. More like several seconds per revolution. I'll have to go check again to get you the actual number. They look to be slow enough to be able to fly an airplane through them. I am not recommending that this be attempted.
 
One of my favorite quotes, and an attitude that is hard for most of us to adapt to (me for sure) is one from Tommy Edison: "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.”

Just like our looks back at the original flying machines (and men with bird feathers strapped to their backs), we have come a long way. They will get all this power generation stuff figured out the right way in time - maybe not "our" time - but I am always impressed with the progress, even when it seems like it is not that much of an improvement.


sj
 
One thing I find interesting with all the solar farms being installed here in Vermont. If these things provide so damn much usable power in a state that averages about 60 clear sky days a year, why is it that after a snow fall the solar panels are covered over with snow for weeks at a time on the clear days after the dump?
I know I no longer bother to clear off my solar hydro array since I have seen little value to them after the thousands I invested.
But in a state where the average wage is minimum wage the companies do not find any need to get the panels cleared off.
 
Laura's brother runs his whole house off a small pole mounted array that follows the sun in Western Mass. (Lyden area). He makes way more power than he needs year round. The solar cell technology just keeps getting more efficient as well.

I'll try to get him to send me a picture.

sj
 
One thing I find interesting with all the solar farms being installed here in Vermont. If these things provide so damn much usable power in a state that averages about 60 clear sky days a year, why is it that after a snow fall the solar panels are covered over with snow for weeks at a time on the clear days after the dump?
I know I no longer bother to clear off my solar hydro array since I have seen little value to them after the thousands I invested.
But in a state where the average wage is minimum wage the companies do not find any need to get the panels cleared off.

Most of the electricity generated in Vermont came from nuclear power until 2014, when the state’s only nuclear plant, the Vermont Yankee station, closed down. Since then, nearly all of the electricity produced in the state has come from renewable sources, including hydropower, biomass, wind and solar. But, Vermont’s absolute generation capacity has substantially declined.

Vermont imports most of its electricity from nearby states and Canada. Last year, the state’s own generation “provided only about two-fifths of the electricity consumed in Vermont,” according to E.I.A.

Vermont’s ambitious renewable energy goal requires that 75 percent of electricity sold in the state come from renewable sources by 2032, including 10 percent from small, in-state sources.
 
Laura's brother runs his whole house off a small pole mounted array that follows the sun in Western Mass. (Lyden area). He makes way more power than he needs year round. The solar cell technology just keeps getting more efficient as well.

I'll try to get him to send me a picture.

sj
What is he using for heat? Curious how it does with air conditioning in the summer.
 
I was wondering about solar power incentives when I drove by a small array at a nice home on 5 acres. All of the panels were mounted on what looked like fixed pedastals. The confusing thing was they were facing northeast despite a clear view to the south.

It was like they were trying to keep them out of direct sunlight.

Sent from my SM-J320V using SuperCub.Org mobile app
 
My assumption is that any "small" generating facility is much less efficient than large scale operations.

Depends....not if that small generator, of whatever source, is using that power onsite as it is being produced, so no line losses! Other wise, your are correct for sure.
 
I was wondering about solar power incentives when I drove by a small array at a nice home on 5 acres. All of the panels were mounted on what looked like fixed pedastals. The confusing thing was they were facing northeast despite a clear view to the south.

It was like they were trying to keep them out of direct sunlight.

Sent from my SM-J320V using SuperCub.Org mobile app

If using a tracker, some default at the end of the solar day to the east, to be ready for AM sun. Not north though. Trackers are passe, since the huge drop per watt in PV it's much better to mount them solid, nothing to go wrong, and with the money saved on a tracker, buy more solar. Hard to beat NO moving parts long term, mine are all fixed, including one tracker that stripped gears, now welded solid, problem solved.
 
solar array.jpg

Here is Cafi19's brother's system, his comments below...

Hey, Steve! See attached for photo. Yes, we are very happy with it performance and reliability, and especially that we did
something (even if it was on the eve of my departure from income-producing work).
Our 6.6kW system is on a tracker, which improves its performance 31% over a stationary system. It was the right choice for us; if we had a good-enough roof we would choose to go roof-mounted. The dimensions of the array itself are 18' tall by 21.5' wide.

Last calendar year we produced 11.3 MWh (which avoided 14.77 tons of carbon emission).

Expected payoff is 7 or 8 years, which comes from two sources: 1) not having to spend money on electricity, and 2) SRECs (solar energy credits) that are sold quarterly. There are also state and federal tax credits that help with the capital expenditure. Incentives vary by state and over time.
 

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Looks good, but I can tell you the 31% number is sales hype by the tracker salesman. Yes, the array will be aimed directly at the morning and late evening sun, BUT the sales guys for trackers forget to mention that the sun, when lower in the horizon, is shining thru more atmosphere, so the output is less. More like 15 to a max of 25%. Then when we pencil out the cost of the tracker, and with solar at less then $1.00 per watt (less then .50 actually), it is not a good time to be in the tracker business!

For 30 years I had a side biz of small scale off grid solar, that evolved into grid tie, until more and more regulations, driven largely by insurance companies, made it impractical to dabble in it, I found it more trouble then it was worth to keep up, so officially got out last year. Being in the crane biz also, I of course found a way to tie the 2 together, and it goes without saying the plane always was part of the deal. I built, delivered and set, over 50 of what came to be my standard array size, roughly 10'x20', so as much as 3.8 KW. This size was my sweet spot, very little waste using stock steel lengths, when trucking them (thru Nevada, Wyoming, Utah, and Idaho) just an over width permit but not a pilot car needed), and also just right for handling them in my shop.

I'd fab the frames, paint them (Rustoleum red primer, great stuff) install the panels and pre wire and test them, all in my spare time at my at home shop, between my main money making crane work. A sweet deal.....even though many of the projects were in remote areas, requiring flying out and finding a place to land to meet with my customers, tough duty but someone had to do it.

I'd advise them as to what size pipe, how deep, how much concrete, etc., they'd get it all ready, and then when I trucked the arrays out there it was a few minutes work to set them into place with my 22 or 30 ton boom truck. This maximized my time spent "out" and gave my customers the best bang for the buck. I sold the crap out of them, especially after they would check into a more traditional solar supplier, I was undercutting them by half and still making real good bucks, all in my spare time. Plus large quantity purchases meant cheap gear for myself.

But this IS a flying forum, and one of the best stories I have is when an old boy in Warren ID. wanted a few smaller panels, (two of them, my profit maybe 50 bucks) and as my ad said "free delivery", I did so, clear across the Frank. Not a good business decision, but a great flying one. A month later he wanted 2 more, so I did it again. So I'm out of it now, except fly overs to all my old customers in the remoter areas, (which just happen to be some of the best flying areas ) just to make sure everything is working OK, heck I don't even bill them for this service, go figure!
 

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Now why aren't some of those shots in the calendar? Pretty cool!

sj
 
YouTube has a video of a vulture lazily circling until a tip comes down on it. The tip speed on a 60rpm, 200ft dia prop is hard to believe. I get 400mph.

Pponk's tip speed calculator says 428 mph (.56 mach) on a standard temp day.
 
Bata Technologies in Burlington VT has just go there electric plane flying, stupidest looking thing I have see. There first long cross country was from Plattsburg NY to Rutland VT a few weeks ago. About a 35min flight.
A year or two ago they put in charging stations, one for aircraft and a few for cars. Big azz transformer needed, it is at least 4X what poweres the full airport and businesses.
Before the flight a truck had been sent down, it had batteries in back to test the charging station since if it did not work the airplane would have needed to be dismantled to truck out. It worked.
Last week I read they flew out to Ohio, The plane needed to be charged 7 times to make the flight. Never read about the return.
 
These things are all junk the Moller Skycar was first and the best. With all the decades of experience Moller's Skycar will dominate electric fright. Actually Moller was a chump he was collecting a few bucks from pilots here and there, these new age electric flyers are getting big investors to throw big bucks at them. It'll be good for the helicopter industry when the potential customers realize they can just buy an R-44 and get the job done.
 
Bata Technologies in Burlington VT has just go there electric plane flying, stupidest looking thing I have see. There first long cross country was from Plattsburg NY to Rutland VT a few weeks ago. About a 35min flight.
A year or two ago they put in charging stations, one for aircraft and a few for cars. Big azz transformer needed, it is at least 4X what poweres the full airport and businesses.
Before the flight a truck had been sent down, it had batteries in back to test the charging station since if it did not work the airplane would have needed to be dismantled to truck out. It worked.
Last week I read they flew out to Ohio, The plane needed to be charged 7 times to make the flight. Never read about the return.

That plane flew all the way to Arkansas from Vermont a week or so ago and landed at our airport here (many stops to recharge) - along with a whole host of other interesting flying and driving machines. Remember - a lot has happened in a 100 years of aviation and none of us would jump in one of the original contraptions given the choice now. These new fangled things are the Wright flyer compared to what will eventually evolve. Pretty interesting stuff if you ask me.

sj
 
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