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Jump start pack

Do you have a lab power supply capable of constant current and constant voltage modes? If so you can bring back your flat cell and it may come back to life. LFP is more tolerant of over discharge. I have a an ETX900 that I rebuilt that had a seriously flattened cell. Brought it back to life , rebuild the board and converted it to a fully submersible marine version. It powers my electric fishing reels, a bilge pump, and a high volume air pump for my zodiac.

Don't give up on that thing. I bet you of all people can fix it.

Jerry
 
I do have a power supply, have not put my hands on it in a few decades.
My gut feeling is this cell is toast. It has expanded more since I last looked at it a few hours ago.
I have not researched cells to try to learn what these are and what is available.
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I have the same one Charlie. One time I used it to run the Cub after I foolishly left the master on. The jump pack was totally drained since the Cub didn't have a generator at the time. It was recharged and I used it all last winter starting my Kubota diesel with a weak battery. It did many starts and still has maintained a full charge. I have no complaints. Maybe yours just has a bad cell? Will they send you a replacement?
 
I think your gut is correct. It looks like the one cell has an internal short and there is no way to save that. If it were just below threshold it would be worth a try. I would not try to charge that cell unless it were outside. Replacing one cell in a series pack like that is a bit tricky but I have done it. It takes some serious heat management and you need a vacuum based desoldering tool to effect the removal. Also the balancing circuits in these things are not that sophisticated and operate on the premiss that the 4 cells are matched when they are installed.Jerry
 
They no longer have a supply for these cells.
I have a very old 24HP Kubota, as in one of the first 2WD grey market ones, 1972 or 73. It originally had a 300A current draw to crank it. I tossed that lead Prestolight starter and installed a new Denso unit. I no longer even have the battery tray or battery cables on it. It has a set of pigtails and I just plugged this in. Summer or winter this started it up.
Same for my lawn tractor, I left a dead battery in it so the alternator could engage the mower clutch.

My take on this is EX has been seeing cell failures with these. If cell prices are logical I will buy four new ones and solder up a pack. If the cost looks to be anywhere near the new 24V unit, I go that way and pray it is not short lived.
 
I think your gut is correct. It looks like the one cell has an internal short and there is no way to save that. If it were just below threshold it would be worth a try. I would not try to charge that cell unless it were outside. Replacing one cell in a series pack like that is a bit tricky but I have done it. It takes some serious heat management and you need a vacuum based desoldering tool to effect the removal. Also the balancing circuits in these things are not that sophisticated and operate on the premiss that the 4 cells are matched when they are installed.Jerry

My thoughts are to see what similar cells are available and consider soldering up something.
I have a good soldering station and desoldering tools.
I have no clue how close the match would be if buying 4 cells from China, but right now is not the time to buy there. A recent order coming by air has a 45 to 60 day travel, not the 3 to 5 days of just months ago. This world has gone nuts.
 
Assuming you get legitimate cells I would guess the match will be just fine. To replace a single old cell with a new cell that has a different year of manufacture would be a bad move. I took an old ETX36C that has two series packs in parallel and could use the used cell from one and move it to the other pack. In Alaska we can't buy individual cells so you are in good shape for replacing the cells with new. Up here it's all scrounge from old stuff. Soldering new cells should be fine especially if you can get a blank series board to connect them. If you have to salvage the old board on top it will be a bit of work and you have to be careful to not short things or overheat the board which could lift the traces.

I would also look at the other side of your board and you will see the balance circuitry. Make sure there is no sign of any cracks in those components. My guess is your board is intact.

Good luck.

Jerry
 
Looking at the Pouch cells online they look to have two flexible tabs out one end. I know nothing more than that.
Well other than if EX says they lost their supplier I know not to even try to match anything.
I did just move the pack further from the house since that cell is getting fatter.
 
I was going to PM you about the potential of an internal short in a hot cell. Moving it is a great idea. I would snip all balance wires ONE AT A TIME and tape the ends. I cannot see the main output wires in the picture but it should be obvious. Try to just separate the main board completely from the battery pack making sure not to cross any balance wires. This will clue you in whether the short is internal to the cell of is on the board. I do see an indentation on one of cells and assume you know not to make any sharp indentations on these pouch cells or you make cause a Nokia moment. I have a pack I built up that shows the top of a pack I built from the expired 36C. I do have some photos of the pack rebuild process on my phone that I can upload when I find my normal charge cord (if you are interested). Usually there is a connecting board on top of these packs that's under that protective foam where your balance wires go to the pack. The packs are arranged opposite each other to form a series and the balance wires connect at each cell. I'd be surprised if there is no connecting board on top but it is possible to do, just seems more hazardous.

FYI - any time I work on this stuff I keep fireplace gloves and a burn bucket handy.;-)

Also if this is getting boring or distracting from the thread I'm happy to discuss elsewhere.

Have fun - Jerry
 
Also if this is getting boring or distracting from the thread I'm happy to discuss elsewhere.

I was/am enjoying the discussion. I have some experience with other cell chemistries but have never opened or attempted to repair any type of Lithium battery.
 
Yes, if someone wants to move this portion of this thread feel free to do so. To me it is intriguing to learn the failure mode. I remember back years ago when some new to the market batteries turned out to only be a step away from a bomb.

In this, the bloating cell is not much warmer than the other three. I have the unit in a baggie and on a granite bench in front of the house. Not sure if we are getting snow or rain later but this should be fine.

This has a balance/charge board up top. The usb power out etc.
I started at lifting the pack out of the case but clearly with the swollen cell it will take some effort. I will go back at it in the morning with decent protective gear on.
Part of me wonders if I should snip the balance wires now as you state or just wait for my session in the morning. The devices on the board are smaller than my aging eyes can see, at least without my double stack of Magoo lenses on.
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I snapped a decent shot and then snipped the balance wires.

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Most all of the repairs to board like this are done under a microscope. I have an optical scope for soldering and a digital one for parts ID and cataloging the repair since I have no memory. If you have a flat bed scanner that is an excellent way to picture the board. There may be tall stuff on the back side that will prevent it. If you have any high resolution camera a clear picture of the other side of the board would be helpful. Once the pack cools down you can see if the cells have any labeling that will guide you to cell replacement. Cell size is sort of important for expansion abatement otherwise if your new assembled pack is smaller you need to sleeve the pack with pvc. In the first photo there is a piece of foam near the bottom of the pack. That piece is important and should be replaced. Take lots of photos as even the foam spacers can have a purpose. Last but not least is the actual harness that plugs into the outside of pack may or may not have circuitry in it. The shape of it is an obvious tell in that it will have a relay and supporting circuitry in an L shaped case on the end of the leads.

Jerry
 
Good info, My camera is not up to the newest as far as imagery but a lady friend up the road has rather good stuff.

The direct output harness only has a fuse in it. Input from the wall is 15V DC, never paid attention to regulation but being you can plug an input from a running car I would say any regulation is on the main board. I had taken a quick look at the board, it did not strike me as being complex. The devices were small, very small. The coating did not strike me as being very thick, but probably no need to be. I think there were some heat signitures. I will look at this early tomorrow.
 
Any tips on safely disposing of a bloated or dead battery? I have one EarthX jump pack that does not take a charge, but still appears to be in decent physical condition. I have another pack from a different manufacturer that is very bloated, though stable and not ballooning any more. I'd like to get rid of them but don't feel good about tossing them in the dumpster.
 
Any tips on safely disposing of a bloated or dead battery? I have one EarthX jump pack that does not take a charge, but still appears to be in decent physical condition. I have another pack from a different manufacturer that is very bloated, though stable and not ballooning any more. I'd like to get rid of them but don't feel good about tossing them in the dumpster.

Check with any local battery suppliers. Most have some kind of collection program for old batteries.

Web
 
I had to sit on my hands on this one knowing Charlie was first in line. You now have all the parts you need to make one working Jump Pack.

Jerry
 
Thank you Jerry,
I have not had a chance to touch the pack since last writing. If this works out to get a donor cell and bring mine back to life that would be cool.
 
Question - what kind of breaker is good enough to allow starter current, yet protect from short circuit?

In an earlier post I referred to the device as a "circuit breaker", but EarthX informs me that it is actually a switch. When the load voltage is very low (I suppose this is interpreted by the Jump Pack as being a short circuit, or nearly so) the "switch" opens.

Without a load attached to the Jump Pack the LED in the switch will glow red but will change to green when connected to a load of more than ???? voltage (yet to be determined).
 
CharlieN, I'll get in touch after I confirm that I have not cannibalized any important parts from it yet. Pretty sure I only disassembled and did not destroy anything in the process.
 
I sooo wish this wasn't an experimental battery. Batteries for the turbines are tanks! and here in the desert, flooded batteries are lucky to make it 2 years

I always help on my annuals, but tend to have “something come up” the day they switch out the battery, which is a minimum 2 man job on a Mills Cat we do every 2 years as well. An EarthX would be a game changer.
 
I sooo wish this wasn't an experimental battery. Batteries for the turbines are tanks! and here in the desert, flooded batteries are lucky to make it 2 years

I always help on my annuals, but tend to have “something come up” the day they switch out the battery, which is a minimum 2 man job on a Mills Cat we do every 2 years as well. An EarthX would be a game changer.
The airplanes you two are operating are "restricted" category. Without looking into it myself, don't you have some leeway in this?
 
Well, I don’t know. The Cat is CAM 8 and we have quite a bit of leeway with what we do to it, but the entire electrical system is changed with the turbine STC, so would I need to talk to the STC owner? The Mills is the firewall forward off an early King Air and has an ancient electrical system, but if the EarthX or a few of them would work I’d be interested.
 
It is still CAM 8 regardless of the STC holder. I would look closely at the CAM 8 regs. In the past I have made battery inquiries for standard category airplanes of local FAA FSDO friends which they were unable to answer. I think you have more leeway than you think.

You may find it is as simple as providing a certain type of battery box.
 
Well, I don’t know. The Cat is CAM 8 and we have quite a bit of leeway with what we do to it, but the entire electrical system is changed with the turbine STC, so would I need to talk to the STC owner? The Mills is the firewall forward off an early King Air and has an ancient electrical system, but if the EarthX or a few of them would work I’d be interested.
This is CAM 8. https://dotlibrary.specialcollection.net/Document?db=DOT-CAMS&query=(select+29+(byhits+(field+DOCUMENT+(anyof+civil+air+manual+%608
Look at 5.21 Storage Batteries It doesn't say much.

Look at FAA Order 8110.56B Restricted Category Type Certification
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/FAA_Order_8110_56B.pdf
Look on page 3-3.
"2. Civil Air Regulations, Part 8 (CAR 8. The FAA no longer uses CAR 8 and CivilAeronautics Manual 8 (CAM 8 as airworthiness standards for new type certification programs.However, for aircraft originally certificated to CAR 8, STCs and other modifications can use CAR 8 as the starting point for the certification basis, adjusted in accordancewith 14 CFR 21.101(f) and Order 8110.48, How to Establish the Certification Basis for ChangedAeronautical Products."

I would contact Earth-X with the information that you are using a turbine engine to run some farming equipment which has the following electrical requirements for starting-----------. See what they recommend for a battery. Then develop a suitable box to install it in your plane. Submit the plan to your friendly FAA person. You are altering your airplane not the engine STC holder's airplane.

As long as you use the proper precautions for the use of that particular battery, there should be no opposition from a FAA person who knows how to read the regulations. Show him if need be.
 
This is a heads up about NOCO jump packs. The NOCO GB-50 has a known defect. The push buttons are having quality issues. The symptoms mimic the need to do a long press or multiple presses of the power button or the light button. In some cases they fail completely, even on very recent models with very little use. The override button is a long press but it uses the same low quality button. All three buttons on the GB-50 are substandard. It's too bad because otherwise it's a nice product but if you can't turn it on it's useless.

Jerry
 
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