Prospective buyer seeking input on PA-12 value.

pcj_5189 said:

I guess that's beyond my expertise. Has the Crosswinds -18 gear STC and the A&P said that it would bolt on. The Crosswinds STC work was done when they installed the Edo's for the first time '08. I'd have to double check but the A&P spent 16 years working on Alaska type equipment in Alaska so I think he would have said if there was an issue. The plane has been used I think exclusively on floats since '08 and was put on gear this month at annual.

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This is the exact scenario that gets REALLY expensive. Go to bolt on gear that are supposed to fit, only to find that the attach fittings are not quite right...

Good luck, and I will keep my eyes out if I see a good plane. Maybe tell us what you really want?

aktango58 said:

This is the exact scenario that gets REALLY expensive. Go to bolt on gear that are supposed to fit, only to find that the attach fittings are not quite right...

Good luck, and I will keep my eyes out if I see a good plane. Maybe tell us what you really want?

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I've read a few threads regarding the cabane V not fitting and to make sure you have it there when the welding happens to avoid the fitting issue.

Thanks everyone who has contributed to the conversation thus far. As I mentioned earlier, airplane fever can make a guy think crazy thoughts. I came here seeking some objective points of view and you guys have said what I needed to hear. I just paid for a membership as I can see the value in the resources and information here on this forum.

As far as what I'm looking for. I don't need a show piece to present at OSH. Just looking for a -12 that isn't a huge project. My flying is going to be mainly in Northern MN and surrounding areas for pleasure and other than grass strips, probably not any super demanding off airport flying into short/challenging strips. I live on a large lake and would like to put skis on in the winter and have the option of floats at some point. Something with 150HP is a requirement. Flaps would be nice to have but I'm not sure it would be an absolute requirement for my mission. I'm sure they would definitely be an asset if I got into float flying more down the road. Some sort of baggage mod allowing the ability to carry something other than a duffle bag would be great. I don't NEED 31" Tundras but extended gear would be helpful on skis. Again, I'm pretty open as my nice to have list is greater than my MUST have list. Obviously resale value comes into play as well. While I plan on keeping the plane long-term, I would like to have something there was a demand for should circumstances change.

Again, a BIG thanks for everyone's input so far. I really do appreciate it and I look forward to learning more from the group!

Chris

Look at the “help me price it” thread for ballpark value.

Paul Heinrich said:

Look at the “help me price it” thread for ballpark value.

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Thanks! I will. I just submitted my membership payment and apparently there is a delay in allowing access to the members only threads.

I know of a PA-12 in Winsted, MN for sale. It is not advertised in the normal media but I have the owners contact info. I have no idea how much he wants or what it really is....

PM me if interested.

Tim

MN_flyer1 said:

I know of a PA-12 in Winsted, MN for sale. It is not advertised in the normal media but I have the owners contact info. I have no idea how much he wants or what it really is....

PM me if interested.

Tim

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PM sent

So...a couple of thoughts on PA-12's and buying airplanes and "tweaking them up":

- There are some members on this forum (StewartB, Mr. Pierce, and Mr. Skup come to mind, but there's lots of others) who have great insight into -12's. Take their advice.
- Even with a realistic price / budgeting estimate, I don't believe you can go into a -12 and say "I'm going to do X for Y dollars." Even if the "Y" figure is very conservative (i.e. high), it's almost a certainty that while doing X, you'll see you have to undertake U and V as well.
- If you get a -12 with a plan on significant changes / repairs / mods, be sure that the -12 (either as-is or as-modified) is the plane you want. You will never ever get the $$ out of a -12 that you put into it if later you decide for example, that a 185 is what you really want.
- When I got my -12, it had stock wings, an 0-290, 12-gear, etc. Within a year or two, I added an 0-320 and -18 tailfeathers. Some time down the road, I had a complete restore done adding flaps, -18 gear, all sorts of other stuff. Turned out great very happy with the work and the airplane (except on very infrequent instances) still fly's better than I can. ......but there's some argument that I should have stopped with the engine swap (the old 0-290 was wrung out and needed an OH anyway).
- Doesn't sound like you're headed that direction, but even tweaked up, a -12 is not an -18. Lots of benefits to a -12 (including more room for those of us on the larger side) but if the 200' gravel bar is your goal, look for an -18.
- It's always a bit of a "what's behind door #1" but for me, while doing lots of mods to a plane (or OH'ng an engine) allows one to know exactly what they have, I think the risk of "hidden issues" will have less impact over the long run that would getting a -12 with the plan of "Oh, I"ll just to A and B to it". "A and B' turn into "A - F".

Strong suggestion would be to hold out for what you want (and for my $0.02, "want" should include flaps) rather than getting a deal and anticipating immediate tweaking.

Is there any benefit of a -12 over a 150hp Pacer? Seems the mission would be similar and as you say a -12 is not a -18. You can get a lot of Pacer for the price of a modified -12.

Tim

Re: Pacer v. 12

- The -12 isn't (really) a 3-place airplane; Pacer's are 4-placer's IIRC....
- I believe if one is looking for a -12, even with limitations, they may be somewhat interested in short strip work, which the -12 will do, just not as good as an -18, but (based on my vast experience of 2 hours in a Pacer) the -12 does better on short / rough than a Pacer.
- Long wing v. short wing <<<<for many folks, that's the end of the discussion right there.
- Certainly if "Pacer" means "Tri-Pacer", not the same discussion as -12 v. -18.

If one is looking for a fly-around, good strip, fun, economical, plane, I presume the Pacer would fit that bill....but so would a well maintained stock -12 without the big engine or the various -18 mods.

I've considered a Pacer for a brief moment but most of my flying will be solo or with one pax.. I like the -12 better and after many years flying bigger, faster aircraft I'm wanting to do my recreational flying more "old school" and a stick just has more appeal than a yoke in a taildragger. Dumb reason, but it's an appeal that a Pacer or a 170 just don't have. Obviously there's also more on the market with floats and other mods than Pacers as well.

As 12drvr suggested, I'm going to be patient and look for the "right" plane and let my bank account grow a bit more. I was really planning on being in the position to buy something in the spring but this one popped up through word of mouth. I could stretch for something now that really fit what I am looking for but I'm really not in a hurry. I wholly agree with the sentiment that buying something you want and spending more initially than thinking about doing mods down the road.

What price range are you targeting? That will help us guide you in the right direction.

You might consider getting enough stick time in -12s so that you will “know” what features are really important to you for your mission.

Paul Heinrich said:

What price range are you targeting? That will help us guide you in the right direction.

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Right now I could swing something in the mid to upper 50's at the moment. Higher as time goes on. Thinking that I don't want to go too much above 60 regardless.

The 12 you were considering is waaaay over priced. There have been some very nice 12s sold in the last 2 years in the $40k range that were "Compleately"covered in last 10/15 years, with much more recent Mid time 0320's. So honestly its more of a $20/25k airplane. But you will have $40/50k into it shortly with the wing recover and engine rebuild...........
Your mechanic is correct just because the tabs are welded on, to convert it to 18 gear. You can still run 12 gear on it , until you decide to someday put it on 18 gear legs..........
12 gear is actually fine, just a more work at change over time. The flap thing has become a HUGE issue on this site. And flaps are nice. But a good lightweight 12 with 0320 works just fine. I park on 31" exactly 300 ft from the end of our strip. Our 1070lb
12 is very capable of T/O in no wind
In that distance. With NO FLAPS. So be carefull with this "you gotta have flaps" trap; as that mod can easily be a $15k option. This whole thing about needing to fly into a "200ft sandbar" is
What Cubs do best, however unless the 'wind is blowing' at Valdez , MOST pretty capable 18 jocks; struggle to get em stoped in the 200' .........
Totally forget the floats at $15k...... Like the 12; they are about double in price of the realistic value probably is.
However:::
When you get into these 1250/1400lb Alaskanized 12s; you will not only NEED flaps but BIG ones; forget standard 5' flaps and better plan of 7.5' as standard on a 1350lb /12. As well as BIG HP.
Light is everything in a great flying 12!
And its this simple: For the PA 12s@ $40K(0320/Cub tail) you can do 98% of what an $80k /18 will do, So if that 2% is part of 'your mission' then its going to cost the extra $40 grand to go there.
Good Luck
E

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Thanks Turbo. I have no illusions of a -12 being what an-18 is and I don't plan on trying to land on any 200' gravel bars. Just looking for an airplane that will give me the most bang for my dollar without being a problem child. Doesn't have to be the prettiest or have the most or best bling so I can win a ***k measuring contest at a fly-in. I'm sure a lot of guys have a mission that requires all of the Alaska mods but I'm sure there's a good percentage of planes out there that have them for looks. Like the $70k 4x4 with another $20k invested in a lift kit, skid plates, big tires and a hi-lift jack that hasn't been on a gravel road let alone off-road.

If you get a good lite one that does NOT have corrosion issues in the fuselarge they can be ALOT of airplane for the money. If you get caught in one that needs all the attention that one will need shortly,
Thats fine; as long as you can buy it right but $40K for a 12 thats needs an engine rebuild; and wing recover, is not
Right at all.......
I do think the old adage " buy the best one you can afford" is darn good advice. So keep saving your money and I bet you can find a much better deal.
Good Luck
E

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To the OP, what's the allure of a -12? Do you have some attachment to the type? Experience with stock -12s?

pcj-5189, There is a very nice PA-12 near me for sale that I believe was totally rebuilt. Unfortuantely it is not O-320 powered, has the O-235 I believe. I'm in north central MN.

stewartb said:

To the OP, what's the allure of a -12? Do you have some attachment to the type? Experience with stock -12s?

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I'm getting back into GA flying after several years of airline flying. Always had the desire to get back to GA but have bounced around the country living in larger cities. I don't find flying around busy airspace VFR in a small plane to be enjoyable in the least. Now that I'm back home in God's country I really want to get back into flying for fun. I owned a couple different planes years ago when I was building time to get qualified for the airlines. At that time I was wanting something bigger and faster with a full panel. Fast forward several years and I'm looking to simplify and refresh my memory as to what a rudder is actually for.

At first I considered a 140 just for something cheap to get up in the air with, but realized I would want something larger with more horsepower. I've considered Champs but wood spars, low horsepower and plain old ugliness drove me from them. I've strongly considered 170's since they are larger, more horsepower and an aluminum airplane does eliminate the fabric variable. GCBC's have been on the radar, but ones with aluminum spars seem to be out of the budget and relatively rare if they are anywhere near my price range. Obviously -18's are way too much money. I've even looked at Sedans as a possibility but again, they aren't abundant. That leaves me with a Pacer and a -12 as an option. I posted earlier that there is something about a stick vs. a yoke that does something for me. Plus it seems that there are more options in the -12 market for what I want to do with the plane and not end up with something I will grow out of.

WWhunter said:

pcj-5189, There is a very nice PA-12 near me for sale that I believe was totally rebuilt. Unfortuantely it is not O-320 powered, has the O-235 I believe. I'm in north central MN.

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Thanks for the heads up! If the owner's initials are B.A. another member sent me his info and I spoke with him. I'm going to hold out for a 150HP. Appreciate the tip though.

pcj_5189 said:

That leaves me with a Pacer and a -12 as an option. I posted earlier that there is something about a stick vs. a yoke that does something for me. Plus it seems that there are more options in the -12 market for what I want to do with the plane and not end up with something I will grow out of.

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Unless you are one with two thumbs, have you considered building your own? A wide fuselage Javron -18 kit will fit within your budget. As you are building it up your bank account will be building enabling you to be able to come up with the cash for an engine and prop a year or two down the road. When you are done your plane will be all new to your specs.

pcj_5189 said:

Thanks for the heads up! If the owner's initials are B.A. another member sent me his info and I spoke with him. I'm going to hold out for a 150HP. Appreciate the tip though.

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To sort of chime in with TurboBeaver's posts, I don't think that getting a fully Alaskanized -12 is necessarily a requirement and, speaking from direct personal experience, if nothing else, all those mods make the -12 a bit less fun to fly, although not significantly.

When I first got my-12, it had the 0-290, 12-gear, and -12 tailfeathers. My interim mod of 0-320 and -18 tailfeathers was a great balance of improvement (a HUGE improvement over the wheezy 0-290) while still being light and nimble. As previously stated, a good stiff breeze put's a spring into a light -12.

As far as flaps go, while in my current configuration, I can get off faster using flaps than not, I'm not entirely sure how much much takeoff (even with flaps) is improved over the lightly modified version of the -12 with the 0-320. Never recorded data and can't make an apples-apples comparison, nevermind the fluctuating capabilities of the guy on the stick.

But...while learning to slip, and where the edge of the envelope is and similar quality airmanship, is great for landing in a flapless -12, there's just something really neat about flaps (and the ones I have now are big) and being able to throttle back and put the brakes on in the air. When I do my part, always a debatable thing, even being quite a bit heavier, I know I can land much shorter than the originally configured -12. Getting back in the air is a bit different question and probably why the 200' sandbars are not in my portfolio (now, the 400' ones or 300' with a breeze are entirely different animals)

I really like flaps, but if you can find a good fabric/good engine/good otherwise -12, it might just fit the bill of what you're looking for.

As one of the previous posters suggested, it might be beneficial to get a few hours in a -12 just to know what it feels like before pulling the trigger. One way to add to the "plus" column for a -12 is to climb in and out of an -18 then do the same thing for a -12. :lol:

The reason I asked is that the range of performance between stock and modified -12s is wider than any type I know. Most -12s fit somewhere in the middle and that isn't always a good thing. A -12 with a long mount 0-320, Cub tail, but no flaps, gear upgrade, or gross increase isn't a -12 that I'd be interested in for anything but a project, but that's just me. I liked my -12 project a lot. As I read about other guys pursuing -12s I wonder what their motivation is. And what their knowledge of -12s is.

Buy a Husky you can find one for less than $90k and it will be less than 30 years old

I have a light 12/J5 hybrid with 160 hp, Borer prop, 18 gear and tail and no flaps and just cannot see that I’d gain very much by incurring the cost of going to flaps - it is easy to land in a small space and it gets airborne rapidly. I enjoy the space of the wider fuselage and the fact that it cost about 50% of the price of the stock 18/150 I had and outperforms it - but then my 18 was quite heavy at around 1130 empty for whatever reason. The mod I’d like is the seaplane door, but I don’t want any down time so I’m sticking with stock. It’s a great fun plane is my point that cost around $40k complete with new fabric


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Having owned a -12 and owned/flown some others I'd give some thought to and get a ride in a fabric wing 170 and Aeronca Sedan. The reason is for the price range you didn't specify but did mention. A C-170B if affordable would also be nice. Old Pipers are just that and it takes a $ infusion to purchase then make them like new again. Tri- and TW Pacers are another ride that should happen before you decide. Just a suggestion.

Gary

BC12D-4-85 said:

Having owned a -12 and owned/flown some others I'd give some thought to and get a ride in a fabric wing 170 and Aeronca Sedan. The reason is for the price range you didn't specify but did mention. A C-170B if affordable would also be nice. Old Pipers are just that and it takes a $ infusion to purchase then make them like new again. Tri- and TW Pacers are another ride that should happen before you decide. Just a suggestion.

Gary

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And you can buy a NEW Sedan for only.... oh, that’s went up. $345k

https://www.burlac.com/aero_sedan.html


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New anything costs more. Not many can afford them and then they have to be taught how to fly.

Gary

pcj_5189 said:

Thanks for the heads up! If the owner's initials are B.A. another member sent me his info and I spoke with him. I'm going to hold out for a 150HP. Appreciate the tip though.

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No sir, not BA (whoever that may be). I understand not wanting to get one with less than an O-320. It's most likely the same reason that I passed on a couple different really nice -12's when I was shopping for a different plane.

skywagon8a said:

Unless you are one with two thumbs, have you considered building your own? A wide fuselage Javron -18 kit will fit within your budget. As you are building it up your bank account will be building enabling you to be able to come up with the cash for an engine and prop a year or two down the road. When you are done your plane will be all new to your specs.

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Haven't looked into it. I'm not sure I am up for a build. I don't have the space to do it and I know my own limitations. Looks like a nice option for someone wanting to take on a build though.