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Thread: Prospective buyer seeking input on PA-12 value.

  1. #41

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    What price range are you targeting? That will help us guide you in the right direction.

  2. #42
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    You might consider getting enough stick time in -12s so that you will “know” what features are really important to you for your mission.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Heinrich View Post
    What price range are you targeting? That will help us guide you in the right direction.
    Right now I could swing something in the mid to upper 50's at the moment. Higher as time goes on. Thinking that I don't want to go too much above 60 regardless.

  4. #44
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    The 12 you were considering is waaaay over priced. There have been some very nice 12s sold in the last 2 years in the $40k range that were "Compleately"covered in last 10/15 years, with much more recent Mid time 0320's. So honestly its more of a $20/25k airplane. But you will have $40/50k into it shortly with the wing recover and engine rebuild...........
    Your mechanic is correct just because the tabs are welded on, to convert it to 18 gear. You can still run 12 gear on it , until you decide to someday put it on 18 gear legs..........
    12 gear is actually fine, just a more work at change over time. The flap thing has become a HUGE issue on this site. And flaps are nice. But a good lightweight 12 with 0320 works just fine. I park on 31" exactly 300 ft from the end of our strip. Our 1070lb
    12 is very capable of T/O in no wind
    In that distance. With NO FLAPS. So be carefull with this "you gotta have flaps" trap; as that mod can easily be a $15k option. This whole thing about needing to fly into a "200ft sandbar" is
    What Cubs do best, however unless the 'wind is blowing' at Valdez , MOST pretty capable 18 jocks; struggle to get em stoped in the 200' .........
    Totally forget the floats at $15k...... Like the 12; they are about double in price of the realistic value probably is.
    However:::
    When you get into these 1250/1400lb Alaskanized 12s; you will not only NEED flaps but BIG ones; forget standard 5' flaps and better plan of 7.5' as standard on a 1350lb /12. As well as BIG HP.
    Light is everything in a great flying 12!
    And its this simple: For the PA 12s@ $40K(0320/Cub tail) you can do 98% of what an $80k /18 will do, So if that 2% is part of 'your mission' then its going to cost the extra $40 grand to go there.
    Good Luck
    E

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  5. #45

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    Thanks Turbo. I have no illusions of a -12 being what an-18 is and I don't plan on trying to land on any 200' gravel bars. Just looking for an airplane that will give me the most bang for my dollar without being a problem child. Doesn't have to be the prettiest or have the most or best bling so I can win a ***k measuring contest at a fly-in. I'm sure a lot of guys have a mission that requires all of the Alaska mods but I'm sure there's a good percentage of planes out there that have them for looks. Like the $70k 4x4 with another $20k invested in a lift kit, skid plates, big tires and a hi-lift jack that hasn't been on a gravel road let alone off-road.

  6. #46
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    If you get a good lite one that does NOT have corrosion issues in the fuselarge they can be ALOT of airplane for the money. If you get caught in one that needs all the attention that one will need shortly,
    Thats fine; as long as you can buy it right but $40K for a 12 thats needs an engine rebuild; and wing recover, is not
    Right at all.......
    I do think the old adage " buy the best one you can afford" is darn good advice. So keep saving your money and I bet you can find a much better deal.
    Good Luck
    E

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  7. #47

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    To the OP, what's the allure of a -12? Do you have some attachment to the type? Experience with stock -12s?
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  8. #48
    WWhunter's Avatar
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    pcj-5189, There is a very nice PA-12 near me for sale that I believe was totally rebuilt. Unfortuantely it is not O-320 powered, has the O-235 I believe. I'm in north central MN.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    To the OP, what's the allure of a -12? Do you have some attachment to the type? Experience with stock -12s?
    I'm getting back into GA flying after several years of airline flying. Always had the desire to get back to GA but have bounced around the country living in larger cities. I don't find flying around busy airspace VFR in a small plane to be enjoyable in the least. Now that I'm back home in God's country I really want to get back into flying for fun. I owned a couple different planes years ago when I was building time to get qualified for the airlines. At that time I was wanting something bigger and faster with a full panel. Fast forward several years and I'm looking to simplify and refresh my memory as to what a rudder is actually for.

    At first I considered a 140 just for something cheap to get up in the air with, but realized I would want something larger with more horsepower. I've considered Champs but wood spars, low horsepower and plain old ugliness drove me from them. I've strongly considered 170's since they are larger, more horsepower and an aluminum airplane does eliminate the fabric variable. GCBC's have been on the radar, but ones with aluminum spars seem to be out of the budget and relatively rare if they are anywhere near my price range. Obviously -18's are way too much money. I've even looked at Sedans as a possibility but again, they aren't abundant. That leaves me with a Pacer and a -12 as an option. I posted earlier that there is something about a stick vs. a yoke that does something for me. Plus it seems that there are more options in the -12 market for what I want to do with the plane and not end up with something I will grow out of.
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  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by WWhunter View Post
    pcj-5189, There is a very nice PA-12 near me for sale that I believe was totally rebuilt. Unfortuantely it is not O-320 powered, has the O-235 I believe. I'm in north central MN.
    Thanks for the heads up! If the owner's initials are B.A. another member sent me his info and I spoke with him. I'm going to hold out for a 150HP. Appreciate the tip though.

  11. #51
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcj_5189 View Post
    That leaves me with a Pacer and a -12 as an option. I posted earlier that there is something about a stick vs. a yoke that does something for me. Plus it seems that there are more options in the -12 market for what I want to do with the plane and not end up with something I will grow out of.
    Unless you are one with two thumbs, have you considered building your own? A wide fuselage Javron -18 kit will fit within your budget. As you are building it up your bank account will be building enabling you to be able to come up with the cash for an engine and prop a year or two down the road. When you are done your plane will be all new to your specs.
    N1PA
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  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcj_5189 View Post
    Thanks for the heads up! If the owner's initials are B.A. another member sent me his info and I spoke with him. I'm going to hold out for a 150HP. Appreciate the tip though.
    To sort of chime in with TurboBeaver's posts, I don't think that getting a fully Alaskanized -12 is necessarily a requirement and, speaking from direct personal experience, if nothing else, all those mods make the -12 a bit less fun to fly, although not significantly.

    When I first got my-12, it had the 0-290, 12-gear, and -12 tailfeathers. My interim mod of 0-320 and -18 tailfeathers was a great balance of improvement (a HUGE improvement over the wheezy 0-290) while still being light and nimble. As previously stated, a good stiff breeze put's a spring into a light -12.

    As far as flaps go, while in my current configuration, I can get off faster using flaps than not, I'm not entirely sure how much much takeoff (even with flaps) is improved over the lightly modified version of the -12 with the 0-320. Never recorded data and can't make an apples-apples comparison, nevermind the fluctuating capabilities of the guy on the stick.

    But...while learning to slip, and where the edge of the envelope is and similar quality airmanship, is great for landing in a flapless -12, there's just something really neat about flaps (and the ones I have now are big) and being able to throttle back and put the brakes on in the air. When I do my part, always a debatable thing, even being quite a bit heavier, I know I can land much shorter than the originally configured -12. Getting back in the air is a bit different question and probably why the 200' sandbars are not in my portfolio (now, the 400' ones or 300' with a breeze are entirely different animals)

    I really like flaps, but if you can find a good fabric/good engine/good otherwise -12, it might just fit the bill of what you're looking for.

    As one of the previous posters suggested, it might be beneficial to get a few hours in a -12 just to know what it feels like before pulling the trigger. One way to add to the "plus" column for a -12 is to climb in and out of an -18 then do the same thing for a -12.
    Back In Alaska

  13. #53

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    The reason I asked is that the range of performance between stock and modified -12s is wider than any type I know. Most -12s fit somewhere in the middle and that isn't always a good thing. A -12 with a long mount 0-320, Cub tail, but no flaps, gear upgrade, or gross increase isn't a -12 that I'd be interested in for anything but a project, but that's just me. I liked my -12 project a lot. As I read about other guys pursuing -12s I wonder what their motivation is. And what their knowledge of -12s is.

  14. #54

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    Buy a Husky you can find one for less than $90k and it will be less than 30 years old

  15. #55

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    I have a light 12/J5 hybrid with 160 hp, Borer prop, 18 gear and tail and no flaps and just cannot see that Iíd gain very much by incurring the cost of going to flaps - it is easy to land in a small space and it gets airborne rapidly. I enjoy the space of the wider fuselage and the fact that it cost about 50% of the price of the stock 18/150 I had and outperforms it - but then my 18 was quite heavy at around 1130 empty for whatever reason. The mod Iíd like is the seaplane door, but I donít want any down time so Iím sticking with stock. Itís a great fun plane is my point that cost around $40k complete with new fabric


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  16. #56
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Having owned a -12 and owned/flown some others I'd give some thought to and get a ride in a fabric wing 170 and Aeronca Sedan. The reason is for the price range you didn't specify but did mention. A C-170B if affordable would also be nice. Old Pipers are just that and it takes a $ infusion to purchase then make them like new again. Tri- and TW Pacers are another ride that should happen before you decide. Just a suggestion.

    Gary

  17. #57
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Prospective buyer seeking input on PA-12 value.

    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Having owned a -12 and owned/flown some others I'd give some thought to and get a ride in a fabric wing 170 and Aeronca Sedan. The reason is for the price range you didn't specify but did mention. A C-170B if affordable would also be nice. Old Pipers are just that and it takes a $ infusion to purchase then make them like new again. Tri- and TW Pacers are another ride that should happen before you decide. Just a suggestion.

    Gary
    And you can buy a NEW Sedan for only.... oh, thatís went up. $345k

    https://www.burlac.com/aero_sedan.html


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  18. #58
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    New anything costs more. Not many can afford them and then they have to be taught how to fly.

    Gary
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  19. #59
    WWhunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcj_5189 View Post
    Thanks for the heads up! If the owner's initials are B.A. another member sent me his info and I spoke with him. I'm going to hold out for a 150HP. Appreciate the tip though.
    No sir, not BA (whoever that may be). I understand not wanting to get one with less than an O-320. It's most likely the same reason that I passed on a couple different really nice -12's when I was shopping for a different plane.

  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Unless you are one with two thumbs, have you considered building your own? A wide fuselage Javron -18 kit will fit within your budget. As you are building it up your bank account will be building enabling you to be able to come up with the cash for an engine and prop a year or two down the road. When you are done your plane will be all new to your specs.
    Haven't looked into it. I'm not sure I am up for a build. I don't have the space to do it and I know my own limitations. Looks like a nice option for someone wanting to take on a build though.
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  21. #61
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcj_5189 View Post
    Haven't looked into it. I'm not sure I am up for a build. I don't have the space to do it and I know my own limitations. Looks like a nice option for someone wanting to take on a build though.
    Alternatively, if you find a really nice stock -12 well within your budget, don't pass it up. You can improve the take off performance by twisting the prop to a lower pitch or change the prop to a longer diameter with a lower pitch. The sacrifice will be in cruise speed. Then later you could exchange the engine for an 0-320 at your leisure. In the meantime you would have your flying machine.
    N1PA
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  22. #62
    Cubus Maximus's Avatar
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    Here's an old 12 that had an STC'd 150hp O-320 with the stock small tail feathers and 80/44 Sensenich wood prop. It was light and performed pretty well!



    warming up


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  23. #63

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    I've owned my -12 for 35 years---flew it initially with 0-235, then 150 hp, and now 160. It was a sweet flying airplane in original configuration but the baggage area was inadequate for my mission (back country camping). So after a few years I added extended baggage, hung an 0-320 on the original long mount (which required balanced elevators), and -18 extended gear. It wasn't quite the "cloud dancer" anymore, but fit my mission better. I have since added 31 inch Bushwheels, 160 hp and Borer prop. I agree with everything others have already said---but don't discount the 0-235---it's a great engine if you keep the airplane light!Click image for larger version. 

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  24. #64
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Unless you are one with two thumbs, have you considered building your own? A wide fuselage Javron -18 kit will fit within your budget. As you are building it up your bank account will be building enabling you to be able to come up with the cash for an engine and prop a year or two down the road. When you are done your plane will be all new to your specs.
    There's been a lot of people who've went down the rabbit hole of building their own airplane,
    and never found their way out again
    Unless they have both experience AND talent,
    most people will take a long long time to complete their homebuilt airplane--
    even if it's a quick-build kit or already partially complete.
    A large number will fizzle out and never actually finish & fly it.
    Personally I would probably fall into the last category--
    that's why I've bought flying airplanes, not projects.
    I enjoy tinkering, but prefer flying to building.
    A "flyable project" would suit me much better,
    I suspect the same is true of a lot of other folks.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  25. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    There's been a lot of people who've went down the rabbit hole of building their own airplane,
    and never found their way out again
    Unless they have both experience AND talent,
    most people will take a long long time to complete their homebuilt airplane--
    even if it's a quick-build kit or already partially complete.
    A large number will fizzle out and never actually finish & fly it.
    Personally I would probably fall into the last category--
    that's why I've bought flying airplanes, not projects.
    I enjoy tinkering, but prefer flying to building.
    A "flyable project" would suit me much better,
    I suspect the same is true of a lot of other folks.
    Like you, I don't mind some tinkering but building an entire plane would make my head explode. Kudos to those who are up for that kind of challenge, but I'm definitely not cut out for that.

  26. #66
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    StewB,
    Although a 12 with an 0320 with an 18 tail may 'not apeal to you' as anything but a 'project' is fine. However probably nothing but a handmade one of a kind, experimental at $300k is the only thing that floats your boat?
    This guy is looking for something to get flying with a Cub wing, without spending $75/80,000 an 18 may bring.
    He apparently feels like an airplane that will operate out of 300' is more than adequate for his mission.
    Alot of guys flying 12s love them because you can haul 2 normal sized folks in them ??? They have noticeably better aileron control in gusty wind.???
    You can add an upper baggage in them for peanuts??? And they are half price??? IF one needs a 150' airplane thats fine, however most DONT.
    Fact is if you need to operate in/out of less than 300' ( your now into the 1%)
    Than a 200hp, monster flaped, leading edge slated , tricked out Cub is the answer.
    But that isnt relivant to his question is it???

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  27. #67

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    I asked what the allure of a -12 was. There’s a big difference between a stock -12 and one that’s modified with big motor, flaps, big baggage, Cub gear, and big tires. Both have merit. The plane he described is somewhere in the middle. It won’t be that nicely balanced sweet flyer the stock plane was and it doesn’t have a balanced mods package to make it perform like a Supercub. A guy without -12 experience may not have a good perspective of what he’s looking at. I had a great -12. Now I have a fire breathing exp Cub. My next plane, if I do another? A simple, nicely balanced 90 hp Cub Special sounds like fun.

    You’re welcome to disagree with anything I say but that doesn’t mean I’m wrong. It’s just my opinion.

  28. #68
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    Well a 90hp Cub Special would of course be a dream to fly because of the near perfect balance they have.

    I think the balance of a stock 12 thats still under a thousand pounds is also very desirable.

    A properly sidesliped 12 ;will land into a spot it most certainly will never come out of with the 0235 regardless of the prop. That wont be true of an 0320 /12 with a Borer or Catto.
    About 'ANY PA12' with 0320 and long flat prop thats 1100lbs or under will be able to operate in and out of 300'.

    So again the merits of flaps, extended 18 gear, are wonderful mods. H)owever they can approach 50% of the price of the whole airplane. They will realisticlly cost $(20k) So they are VERY expensive mods............ For an Alaskan Guide, probably a necessity.
    For many of others, probably not a necessity at all.

    Like yours Stew; just my opinion, after flying a bunch of different Cruisers....

    At $35/40k a 0320 /12 is a great airplane for many......... HUGE bang for the buck, in today's world of overpriced airplanes.

    I recently looked at a nice experimental Piper with an 0360, and big flaps, cost $80 grand. But for my personal mission; it just didnt do $40,000 MORE than my old 12 does.
    Jmho.

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  29. #69

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    Hey guys, input from all perspectives is greatly appreciated. Even though I am not in NEED of a super STOL setup, it is good to hear from someone who uses their plane for that mission. Just as valuable is to hear from those with opinions about the benefits or drawbacks of a lesser modified airplane. I can learn from anyone who is willing to share their opinions and experiences. Again, I thank everyone for their contribution to the discussion. Aviation is a wonderful thing in that we all share a passion. Even though we may enjoy it in different ways, we will always share that common bond.

  30. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcj_5189 View Post
    Hey guys, input from all perspectives is greatly appreciated. Even though I am not in NEED of a super STOL setup, it is good to hear from someone who uses their plane for that mission. Just as valuable is to hear from those with opinions about the benefits or drawbacks of a lesser modified airplane. I can learn from anyone who is willing to share their opinions and experiences. Again, I thank everyone for their contribution to the discussion. Aviation is a wonderful thing in that we all share a passion. Even though we may enjoy it in different ways, we will always share that common bond.
    Hey pcj_5189, You
    can be a cheap skate like me and ‘Roll your Own’


  31. #71

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    [QUOTE=flyrite;759559]Hey pcj_5189, You
    can be a cheap skate like me and ‘Roll your Own’

    Haha...I might have to buy a warmer hat for winter flying with an open cockpit up here in far northern MN. Looks like fun though!
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  32. #72
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Well here is the sorta performance one may expect from a light 12 with no flaps , standard gear. Just the 0320 and a short prop. Quite alot of airplane for the dollar..........

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/pkgo0srccj...00000.mp4?dl=0

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