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Thread: Can a Non ELSA plane be flown LSA?

  1. #41
    akavidflyer's Avatar
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    I have the CD on my Avid as well as a few other. There is no record on file with the FAA for any weights of any kind.

  2. #42
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akavidflyer View Post
    I have the CD on my Avid as well as a few other. There is no record on file with the FAA for any weights of any kind.
    That is because the filled out operations limitations never leave the possession of the airplane's owner.
    N1PA

  3. #43
    akavidflyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    That is because the filled out operations limitations never leave the possession of the airplane's owner.
    that's is kind of my point. Records become lost or destroyed in house fires etc. Mine were lost in a house fire when the previous owner had it. Basically, the weight at which you choose to fly is pretty much up to you and would be very hard to prove otherwise.

  4. #44
    40m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akavidflyer View Post
    that's is kind of my point. Records become lost or destroyed in house fires etc. Mine were lost in a house fire when the previous owner had it. Basically, the weight at which you choose to fly is pretty much up to you and would be very hard to prove otherwise.
    For my EAB I was told that the WB is the record.

    From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be
    found in all corners of the earth."

    Then he made the earth round... and He laughed and laughed and laughed!

  5. #45
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akavidflyer View Post
    that's is kind of my point. Records become lost or destroyed in house fires etc. Mine were lost in a house fire when the previous owner had it. Basically, the weight at which you choose to fly is pretty much up to you and would be very hard to prove otherwise.
    It is apparent that you are addressing airplanes which are certified as E-AB. When those papers were lost in that house fire, the airplane was no longer airworthy and not allowed to be flown as the papers are required to be on board during flight. They must be replaced AND you will be required to set up the new numbers.
    N1PA

  6. #46

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    On the subject of LSA. If a person buys an LSA, and they are unlicensed can they get a ferry permit to operate the aircraft above gross so they can have a CFI onboard plus full fuel to get the aircraft home? Maybe Joe Norris knows.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by ndill View Post
    On the subject of LSA. If a person buys an LSA, and they are unlicensed can they get a ferry permit to operate the aircraft above gross so they can have a CFI onboard plus full fuel to get the aircraft home? Maybe Joe Norris knows.
    No provisions for ferry permits over published gross unless it is for ferry tanks and fuel, not people.


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  8. #48

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    I work with DAR's(2) every day it seems. It is correct that you have to certify at 1320 or less for operate LSA, if it is a home built/Kit plane it will always be E-LSA. If you want to increase the W&B down the road you can. A carbon Cub EX1 or EX2 will have a GW of 1865 but will not be LSA it will be EAB. You can up GW post certification but you can not decrease it.
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  9. #49
    n40ff's Avatar
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    To clarify, once it's operated over 1320 it can never go back and be LSA compliant.

    Which to me is the about the dumbest rule I can think of. I ask, why not? There are otherwise LSA compliant airplanes like the 11AC converted to 85 horse by STC at 1325# that will be forever not LSA compliant. It makes absolutely no sense not to be able to simply knock 5# off the gross and go your way......

    I joined this forum back when I started flying a friend's J5A-75 which is a 3-place airplane at 1450 gross. Anyone who has flown a 75 horse J5 at 1450# gross even a few degrees above a standard day would probably agree with me that it would be a much better airplane 2-place at 1320#.....

    But making sense is an oxymoron to the FAA mentality!

    Oh well,

    Jack


    Also. 40m is correct. you must have the current W&B in the airplane to operate and it will reflect the gross weight. The data plate also has the gross weight. Many if not most E-AB's licensed in the past 10 years will have the initial W&B as part of the FAA records. (I know my DAR sent all that stuff to the MIDO guy)

    Most older E-AB have very sparse and/or incorrect records on file so making something LSA compliant is..........let's say not always impossible. OTOH I suspect the feds would assume an older E-AB was originally operated at the original design gross weight.
    Last edited by n40ff; 10-18-2019 at 09:56 AM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by justme View Post
    I work with DAR's(2) every day it seems. It is correct that you have to certify at 1320 or less for operate LSA, if it is a home built/Kit plane it will always be E-LSA. If you want to increase the W&B down the road you can. A carbon Cub EX1 or EX2 will have a GW of 1865 but will not be LSA it will be EAB. You can up GW post certification but you can not decrease it.
    Can you tell what is involved in increasing the gross wt.. I am interested in doing that. My aircraft already more than meets the physical requirements for 2000lb. gross but was certified at 1750 22 yrs. ago. Thanks for any info. Reid.

  11. #51
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by supercrow View Post
    Can you tell what is involved in increasing the gross wt.. I am interested in doing that. My aircraft already more than meets the physical requirements for 2000lb. gross but was certified at 1750 22 yrs. ago. Thanks for any info. Reid.
    I believe that it means a visit with your friendly DAR or FSDO inspector. Reentering Phase 1 testing for a limited period of time. Performing certain tests at the new higher gross weight, making the entries on the revised operating limitations form and then back to normal using the new gross.
    N1PA
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  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by supercrow View Post
    Can you tell what is involved in increasing the gross wt.. I am interested in doing that. My aircraft already more than meets the physical requirements for 2000lb. gross but was certified at 1750 22 yrs. ago. Thanks for any info. Reid.
    Skywagon is correct.
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  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    No provisions for ferry permits over published gross unless it is for ferry tanks and fuel, not people.


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    Thanks for the reply I always wondered how that worked I knew that you could carry crew only on a ferry permit but I didn't know what the overweight part applied to.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by n40ff View Post
    To clarify, once it's operated over 1320 it can never go back and be LSA compliant.

    Which to me is the about the dumbest rule I can think of. I ask, why not?
    The reasoning at the time was that the FAA wanted to avoid a rash of applications for revised airworthiness certificates from people with airplanes that were just outside the limit. This reaction was triggered by the Cessna 120/140 association's application for an STC to lower the gross weight of their airplanes to comply with the LSA limitations. If the 120/140 association would have waited until after the rule was finalized and in the regulations, we may not have had that limitation. But they made the STC application before the rule was finalized, and the FAA decided that they didn't want to open the door for an avalanche of similar applications. Thus, the rule was written as we know it today.

    Quote Originally Posted by n40ff View Post
    The data plate also has the gross weight.
    There is no requirement for the gross weight to be recorded on the data plate. Yes, there are some data plates that have a place for the gross weight, but it is not required by regulation and I always recommend that it NOT be put on the data plate. As has been explained elsewhere in this thread, it is legal and possible to change the gross weight of an aircraft, so it is not advisable to put the gross weight on the data plate. The only three items that are legally required on an experimental aircraft data plate are builder name, aircraft model, and aircraft serial number. No other data is required or recommended.
    Joe

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