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Thread: Pilot training, lack of respect, or entitlement attitude

  1. #1
    Willie's Avatar
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    Pilot training, lack of respect, or entitlement attitude

    Reading the article linked below makes me happy I retired from airline flying 18 years ago. Written by a working airline pilot, retired USAF.

    http://twinandturbine.com/article/participation-trophy/


    "The sword of freedom is kept sharp by those who live on it's edge." - Scott Adams

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    CamTom12's Avatar
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    I can’t help it, but whenever I read opinion-pieces like this I always end up imagining a couple of parents yelling at their children’s teacher for their kids’ lack of respect - that “entire generation of terrible people” didn’t create themselves.

    Also, I’m sure every generation has had their fair share of individuals that are entitled, disrespectful, and a pain in the ass.

    I love how he finished a generally insulting, pointless article off with 3 left-handed compliments. Pulitzer Prize winning stuff.

    I almost deleted this three times because I do think there’s a big cultural shift happening and I’m not 100% on-board with it, but articles like this provide no real insight and even less resolution. They’re no value added to the situation.

    If you disagree with me:
    https://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c

  3. #3
    TVATIVAK71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamTom12 View Post
    Also, I’m sure every generation has had their fair share of individuals that are entitled, disrespectful, and a pain in the ass.
    ^^^This!^^^

    BTW, I am a Airline Pilot proudly from Generation X. In my 18 plus years of Airline flying and in MY opinion mind you. The “Zipperhead” pilots are equally distributed between generations.

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    The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

    Attributed to SOCRATES by Plato, according to William L. Patty and Louise S. Johnson, Personality and Adjustment, p. 277 (1953)


    I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless
    beyond words. When I was a boy, we were taught to be discrete and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and impatient of restraint.

    Hesiod, Eighth Century B.C.


    The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress.

    Peter the Hermit, A.D. 1274



    Youth always sucks. It’s just our turn to bitch about it.
    Last edited by txpacer; 09-23-2019 at 09:46 AM.
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    SJ's Avatar
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    Good one, Tony!

    sj
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  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by txpacer View Post

    Youth always sucks. It’s just our turn to bitch about it.

    I was shocked at how the old gray headed guys disappeared from the airport.

    Then I realized I *was* one of the old gray headed guys....
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    Quote Originally Posted by txpacer View Post
    Youth always sucks. It’s just our turn to bitch about it.
    Problem is fewer and fewer aren’t growing up compared to the past generations. It’s evidenced by outward indicators like tattoos, piercings etc. in old farts and farttess’s that demonstrates the inward condition. Can’t be argued there’s a cultural shift been taking place. There’s reasons for this, But that discussion would get this thread shut down and ain’t aviation related!

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    gbflyer's Avatar
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    Funny. Wonder if the author ever considered his generation may have been overly idealistic, revolutionary, and collectivist.

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    I've pointed out, the last few years, one upside to this 'next generation'. I believe that we have a higher percentage of that population that has performed military service than at any time since WWII. Putting aside the arguments about whether military service is tougher today than back then, ANY military service forces that person to grow up. Even if only a little.

    The most entitled, rich brat can get into the military (don't laugh, I've met several). Once there, they discover that they must stand on their own merits. It just doesn't matter that daddy has money. It's an even more profound impact if that person goes on deployment. Not only are they expected to do their duties, they're trapped in that unit, on that FOB, for the duration. Kick and scream and whine and you might stay longer, lol.

    I agree that lots of younger people seem weird or scary, but a surprising number have shown a decidedly conservative or common sense attitude (on my last deployment, my driver was only three years older than my youngest kid). They'll have to prove themselves just like we did.

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    Pilot training, lack of respect, or entitlement attitude

    As Todd Snider Famously wrote, “...’Cause they know that if you’re the one that’s doing the pointing, Nobody’s probably looking at you...”



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    mvivion's Avatar
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    I taught at the University of Minnesota, Crookston for seven years. I came from a job environment where most everyone was shall we say “mature”, like me.

    i went to the University and was simply amazed at how much those young folks were similar to “my generation” when we were in college. Yes, the toys and distractions are a little different, but those kids were great.

    MTV
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    Todd long's Avatar
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    Anyone care to make a prediction for the future? I’m guessing the definitions of the generations he posted will change. The youth and current generation is always a pain and the older and past are always endeared and idealistic. I predict when there are 2 generations past gen “z” they will be defined different.


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    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txpacer View Post

    Youth always sucks. It’s just our turn to bitch about it.
    I appreciate those quotes and was thinking the same thing.

    It was a mere 55 years ago I remember first hearing a grey-beard saying, "Dang kids, these days!"
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    It is interesting being a grey beard coming off from hosting a multi day public event that had thousands of people attend, surprisingly there was quite a lack of the disrespectful rats there. Maybe they stayed uptown at the railroad exhibit.

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    We had our two oldest grandkids (14 and 12) with us at OSH this year from the Thursday before to the end of the show. They each clocked over 20 hours of volunteering time and joined us for the daily apre' show gathering around the campfire.

    They asked us later why everyone treated them like adults? We said it was because they acted like adults.

    There is hope.

    Proud papa

    Wayne

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    Quote Originally Posted by flybynite View Post
    We had our two oldest grandkids (14 and 12) with us at OSH this year from the Thursday before to the end of the show. They each clocked over 20 hours of volunteering time and joined us for the daily apre' show gathering around the campfire.

    They asked us later why everyone treated them like adults? We said it was because they acted like adults.

    There is hope.

    Proud papa

    Wayne
    Wayne, this is the only thing that does give me hope! If more people (adults) were less self absorbed and taught and spend time with their children I honestly believe most of these problems could be fixed. I’m like most who responded a retired airline pilot and looking back there’s always been a 10% that no one could fix you just hope they were junior to you so you didn’t have to put up with them. I will say that their hand flying skills in general are worse but their grasp of technology is better. Trouble with that is technology tends to lets us down when you need it most and that’s where the hand flying comes in. I will also add they never ever put up with the crap we did as junior pilots. Wow were those old guys were tuff on junior pukes back in the day and the hazing we took wow they be up on charges today. I’m glad most of that went away.
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  17. #17
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I agree, I blame a lot of behavior on the parents, not all but some. There are some great kids out there. I have worked with one recently that reinforces your faith in the younger generation. They will be successful because they don't feel entitled and are not afraid to work.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

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    I am just coming off hosting an EAA B-17 tour event with a bit over 4K people attending the 3 public days. This event for my wife and I was nearly four years in the making and 8 days straight at the airport.
    Out of those 4,000 attendees we had two people complain about our ground tour not starting right at 14:00, we think those two were planted to test us.
    In the 50 years I have been doing event volunteer work and the 43 years I have been hosting events this is the best public event yet, but far from the best as far as working with the state or with the EAA Tour personnel. They leave a sour note.

    But the parents and children were all superb, absolutely superb which we did not expect.
    I am looking forward to going down country in a few weeks to work another chapter's tour stop to be amongst an even bigger group of people.
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    The warbird tours, warbird shows, seem to bring out great people. (maybe because a lot are connected, directly, or indirectly, to the WWII veterans?)

    I'm currently taking in a book "The Aviators" about Rickenbacker, Lindbergh, and Doolittle. If the book is accurate, that generation of pilots were truly amazing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firepilot View Post
    The warbird tours, warbird shows, seem to bring out great people. (maybe because a lot are connected, directly, or indirectly, to the WWII veterans?)

    I'm currently taking in a book "The Aviators" about Rickenbacker, Lindbergh, and Doolittle. If the book is accurate, that generation of pilots were truly amazing.
    My first 13 years of life was in the same town as Lindbergh, best I can tell he was great. Granted I felt many of my elders were and now reaffirmed they are. And now I am coming to realize there are many who look up to me as their elder. I had not recognized that till now. I seem to have missed that fact.

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    My wife just brought up a point that I had not noticed at our event, a major lack of youth whom would have their own ability to get around, those who can drive were essentially no existent at this warbird event.

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    Hello, I am Nodak33....and I am a Millennial...

    The amount of contempt I have for the current generation and millennials isnt quite measurable. Quite frankly its an embarrassment to see where they are at and where we are potentially going as a society in the future under their leadership. Sadly enough, I fall in the millennial category, and the only thing i can say to you older fellas is there are still some good ones out there. The young bucks that got their asses whooped by their dads when they were mischievous little shits, that never got allowances just rides to their jobs if they were lucky. The ones who are just as disgusted at the current state of the youth entitlement, but are free thinking, out spoken and opinionated with a moral compass established by good God fearing folks and grandparents.

    All I can say fellas, is when you do have the opportunity to share your wisdom of years of piloting or just life in general, there are still those humble enough to absorb and apply your lessons learned. The ability to influence is one of the greatest opportunities that this life has to offer. I recognize this now, especially being a Father to a step a child and having another on the way. Its something to cherish and take seriously. If its taken for granted, then thats on the other individual, you did all you could.
    When it comes to flying, I am always looking for advice or answers to random questions, just ask Jan Rubbert, I bug him all the time and yet he always has an answer no matter how retarded. Same with Mr. Pierce, the amount of knowledge he holds in his head is intimidating for someone like me, that I make sure i have exhausted all resources of information before i pick up the phone to call him, but i know when i get the answer, i can take it to the bank. I cant put a value on that as young pilot/cub owner. All I can do is apply it and hopefully one day share it with someone else who will apply it as well. "Know what you know, and know what you dont know" was the best piece of advice I got as a teenager and it has applicable more times than i can count, especially when it comes to piloting and maintenance.

    There are still some young ones worth investing in. Dont pass the opportunity up and know there are still Cub Fiends raising the next the generation, but even they still need more the wisdom that out there so please dont be afraid to impart it. It one thing that makes this site so special. Click image for larger version. 

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  23. #23
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    I am just coming off hosting an EAA B-17 tour event with a bit over 4K people attending the 3 public days. This event for my wife and I was nearly four years in the making and 8 days straight at the airport. ….In the 50 years I have been doing event volunteer work and the 43 years I have been hosting events this is the best public event yet, but far from the best as far as working with the state or with the EAA Tour personnel. They leave a sour note......
    Charlie, one of my airport buddies is a volunteer pilot for Aluminum Overcast, and another is a volunteer mechanic.
    The mechanic one just got back from the B17 tour, so I think he was probably there for your event.
    Is there any feedback you could provide them (or provide me --> them) that might improve future events?
    We can go to PM or email if you'd like.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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    CharlieN,
    I was in a meeting in Rutland when I heard the SOUND. An hour later Rutland High was leaving as I arrived at the event. The kids looked excited to be there. I got a ride in Colorado a few years back, but I had to confirm what I had heard. Wish we had connected.
    What's a go-around?

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    For what it’s worth, the “damn kids” argument is either a delightfully late April fools joke, or just a pathetically unoriginal reaction to having been slighted by someone younger than you at some FBO. Somebody drop the needle?


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    Sky, I wish I knew you were around, dang. I was in the bright yellow shirt working the base of the ladder.
    Yah, we had the one History teacher bring down a busload. No other school responded to our offers for the tour. That teacher as well as his students were great.
    Yesterday I traveled down to Connecticut to attend another chapters B-17 worker meeting as well as their regular monthly meeting. It was heart warming to see four youth attending the meeting and all of them are taking flight lessons with some of the current grant money available.
    Maybe their will be a future pilot in this group.
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  27. #27
    Bearhawk Builder's Avatar
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    Charlie, you're famous now too, saw you on WCAX. Nice job!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearhawk Builder View Post
    Charlie, you're famous now too, saw you on WCAX. Nice job!
    Thank you, and yes they ran 4 different versions with different clips from my interview. Great people to work with. Carolyn and I had done a one hour talk show on WSYB and the Saturday morning she did a 15 Min live interview on WJJR as well as our 40 paid spots.
    We have post event articles coming out in papers and journals soon as well.
    The interview with Kat in the ball turret right before they did my recording was spectacular, a once in a lifetime experience. I really appreciate Captian Rex Gray for allowing that in turret filming to be done.
    I have never enjoyed working with the press as much as with the region wide coverage offered for last week. Great people.

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    His stories sound more like embellished airline legends with a sprinkle of truth.
    I fly with many GenY new-hires at a large regional and can say I've not really seen any of that type behavior. Do I see backpacks and earbuds, sure, but it's not just the millennial with that stuff. I love my iphone and wx apps, especially in the cockpit. I have seen some less then average stick-n-rudder skills, etc. crosswind technique, from the large university types but most have excellent attitudes that are open, receiving and humble during debrief at the gate.
    I started my flying career in '96 doing part 135 and can say with conviction today's airlines (regional, major, cargo) are much, much safer then they were 20 years ago. Do we hit students in the back of the head with checklist today, no. Does hitting a student with a checklist make him a better pilot, hell no. Enforcing adherence to what's written on that checklist, flying to standards, complying with S.O.P. and FAR's, makes them a better and safer airline pilot.

    This guy has the stereotypical F-teener attitude that many in the airline biz chuckle and roll their eyes about, of course he thinks he's a better captain. I bet more then a few of his colleagues would have a different opinion.
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    I read that article. What a self-serving bunch of bull crap. I’m a Captain at a legacy carrier and the probability of one of our pilots showing up to fly while attempting to listen to music in the cockpit approaches theoretical zero.

    Kevin paints a dire picture of disrespectful, unshaven, tattooed hooligans populating his flight deck, where safety only triumphs because of Kevin’s old-school, mustachioed, UPT-trained awesomeness.

    Bunk.

    I routinely fly with millennials. I have not had a bad experience yet. To a person, they are highly educated, intelligent and have a great attitude. Their airplane flying skills are at least as good as mine, although that ain’t saying much! I would happily put any of my family members on an airplane they’re flying. They may not know who Amy Johnson was, or that there was such a thing as the National Air Races at Cleveland, or who Bevo Howard was.

    But some do!

    But even the ones who aren’t died in the wool airplane freaks are rock sold professionals.

    This carping about the youngin’s is as old as the hills. All those airmail pilots in the left seat who had no use for these upstarts who never flew the mail in a DH-4, although some of those unworthy punks went on to fly B-24’s on the Ploesti raid. All those dirty hippies whose very appearance signaled the Armageddon of American family values, who later finished their education and got jobs and raised families. Some even ended up dying in the war they had the temerity to protest against.

    Nothing new new under the sun. Now get the hell off my porch!
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  31. #31
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I know way to many airline pilots. Some are God's gift to aviation and some are humble, talented people I enjoy hanging out with. I have heard a check airman friend of mine tell me stories of the yound guy that couldn't fly the airplane for **** and the young guy that flew great and he figured he flew tail wheel aircraft. People like to piss and moan, it is human nature. You want to get me going bring up city politics and the local airport board.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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    Get off my lawn!
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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  33. #33
    Taledrger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    Get off my lawn!
    Now that's Funny!!
    Bob D

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    LETS GET SERIAL FOLKS....I think whats really important here gents is the world is going to end if climate change isnt stopped. Click image for larger version. 

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    Such a great idea for a decal on the cub...
    Click image for larger version. 

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  35. #35
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    Not only are you guys old and grumpy, you're getting mean
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by txpacer View Post
    Not only are you guys old and grumpy, you're getting mean
    And . . . ?

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  37. #37
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txpacer View Post
    Not only are you guys old and grumpy, you're getting mean
    Just think how you would be if you had gone back.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  38. #38
    txpacer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Just think how you would be if you had gone back.
    It's a good thing I didn't. I am finding dealing with people of any age increasingly difficult.
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  39. #39
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    It's hard to be humble when you are God's gift to aviation!

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I know way to many airline pilots. Some are God's gift to aviation and some are humble, talented people I enjoy hanging out with.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  40. #40
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txpacer View Post
    It's a good thing I didn't. I am finding dealing with people of any age increasingly difficult.
    That's why we have dogs.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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