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Thread: Towing with a Carbon Cub SS

  1. #1
    Charlie Longley's Avatar
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    Towing with a Carbon Cub SS

    Does anyone know if you can tow a glider with the SS?

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    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    I don’t think the FAA will allow any experimental aircraft to tow. I had an old time, excellent FAA inspector try very hard to get that for me with my first experimental Cub. Ran it all the way up the flagpole and got a “no”. Even if the glider was experimental and both aircraft were owned by me, it was “no”
    I was told it “might” be possible if both tug and glider were experimental light sport.

    Just what I was told. You might get a different answer from a different inspector in a different region.

    Bill
    Very Blessed.
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    hotrod180's Avatar
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    You been eyeballing that Carbon Cub abandoned on the ramp over there, Charlie?
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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  4. #4
    Charlie Longley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rusk View Post
    I don’t think the FAA will allow any experimental aircraft to tow. I had an old time, excellent FAA inspector try very hard to get that for me with my first experimental Cub. Ran it all the way up the flagpole and got a “no”. Even if the glider was experimental and both aircraft were owned by me, it was “no”
    I was told it “might” be possible if both tug and glider were experimental light sport.

    Just what I was told. You might get a different answer from a different inspector in a different region.

    Bill
    The SS is a LSA. Can you tow with an LSA?

    I just looked at the regs. It appears you can-
    https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id..._1327&rgn=div8
    Last edited by Charlie Longley; 09-22-2019 at 11:32 AM.

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    tcraft128's Avatar
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    Funny thing about that, my cub is ok to tow gliders as long as it not for hire. It's in the operating limitations. All I had to do was ask.
    Turning money into noise since 1996

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  6. #6
    Charlie Longley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcraft128 View Post
    Funny thing about that, my cub is ok to tow gliders as long as it not for hire. It's in the operating limitations. All I had to do was ask.
    Is that an SS? I am thinking of doing it for hire.

  7. #7
    tcraft128's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Longley View Post
    Is that an SS? I am thinking of doing it for hire.
    No, and I guess I should have said that, just a plane ol' experimental cub. My apologies for the thread drift.
    Turning money into noise since 1996

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    Keep in mind that operating limitations for SLSA and ELSA are all controlled by Order 8130.2 (currently J version). Depending on when your aircraft was certified, the op limits may look very different from what would be issued today. For an SLSA, you are limited on installing equipment “approved” by the manufacturer, so if Cubcrafters doesn’t offer a tow hitch, then no towing with an SLSA. Convert to ELSA? Possibly, but you still need to comply with 91.319


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  9. #9
    kestrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rusk View Post
    I don’t think the FAA will allow any experimental aircraft to tow.Bill
    It has happened at least once. It was Burt Rutan and it was also decades ago:

    http://stargazer2006.online.fr/aircr.../solitaire.htm

    Initially, Burt settled on the Zenoah engine, however, he changed to a Robin within a few weeks and, still later, switched to a single cylinder 215cc Cuyuna. Of seven or eight sketches, Burt liked the canard or tandem wing, with the canard mounted right on the forward end of the fuselage, with its leading edge in line with the tip of the nose. Construction on the Solitaire began in December of 1981 and was completed in early 1982. On May 28, 1982 the Solitaire made its first test flight, piloted by Mike Melville. The Solitaire handled well and performed as expected. Later, the engine was removed and the aircraft was test flown as a sailplane. Burt worked with the local FAA to get the new Grizzly signed off as the tow plane and arranged for himself to be checked out as a tow plane pilot. Burt and Mike towed many flights with the Grizzly, some up to 10,000 feet to obtain L/D data and to open the envelope.
    --
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    kestrel's Avatar
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    http://stargazer2006.online.fr/aircr...es/grizzly.htm

    In June of 1982, Burt Rutan worked with the FAA to get the Grizzly signed off as a tow plane so it could be used to tow the new Solitaire for its test flights. Rutan checked out as the tow plane pilot and sent the FAA into a bit of a whirl since they had never licensed an experimental plane to tow another experimental plane. The Grizzly towed the Solitaire for many flights, the first of which occurred on June 23, 1982.

    Burt Rutan reflected on the Grizzly program as follows: "We never kitted the Grizzly. We flew it. It wasn't a good idea because it wasn't a very good bush plane. A bush plane needs to have a high wing, not a low wing, and it can't have the flaps two or three feet off the ground dragging through the bush. For me, it was an experiment to show that I could achieve a high lift coefficient on a tandem-wing airplane and, yeah, it parked so that you had a sleeping bed level in it and whatever. I needed more power and it was pretty early that I understood that I should have gone up and spent more time in Alaska understanding what a bush plane really needs to be. I'd put that in that category."
    Last edited by kestrel; 09-23-2019 at 12:48 PM.
    --
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    I once met a man who had an engine failure in his 182 away from his home airport.Towed it home with another 182.
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    Richgj3's Avatar
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    In 1957 Ken Flaglor put a 220 continental on a Fleet 16B and licensed it Experimental Amateur Built. He towed gliders with it for hire, after he took his commercial check ride from an FAA inspector in it. So there’s 3 things you can’t do anymore. I owned the Flaglor Hi Tow for several years. It’s now in the hands of Tom Flaglor, Ken’s nephew.

    The operating limitations for my Legend Cub said it could tow a light sport glider. Not for hire, of course.

    Rich
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    Charlie Longley's Avatar
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    Does anyone on here own a Carbon Cub SS?

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    yes

  15. #15
    Charlie Longley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Watson View Post
    yes
    OK can you tell me what the limitations say about towing for hire? Also what does it climb like? Are you at pattern altitude at the end of a 4,000’ runway. Any other limitations you can think of?

    Thanks!

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    Sorry Charlie, POH does not address towing, I think the climb is specular for what it is. On a hard surface runway with light airplane and low density alitude you can exceed pattern altitude rather easy, even with my poor piloting skills.
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  17. #17
    Richgj3's Avatar
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    Not trying to put words in Charlie’s mouth but I think he is asking what the operating limitations document says. Not the POH. If your CC is in the ELSA category, the EAB category or the SLSA category, the operating limitations document should be carried in the aircraft.

    Rich
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    Thanks Rich, to answer Charlie's question the operating limitations for my airplane, which is experimental light sport, states the aircraft must not be used for banner towing or intentional parachute jumping. I think that would eliminate glider towing. For clarification I would call cub crafters they are great people to talk to.

  19. #19
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richgj3 View Post
    Not trying to put words in Charlie’s mouth but I think he is asking what the operating limitations document says. Not the POH. If your CC is in the ELSA category, the EAB category or the SLSA category, the operating limitations document should be carried in the aircraft.
    The operating limitations are required to be carried aboard all airplanes.
    That's what the "O" is A-R-R-O-W stands for.
    That isn't necessarily the POH or owners manual--
    with most older Cessnas anyway, it's the "Airplane Flight Manual",
    which in the case of my 1953 C180 is a one-page document.
    Lots of STC's include supplements to the airplane flight manual which are supposed to be carried on board also.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  20. #20
    Charlie Longley's Avatar
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    I am going to call Cub Crafters next week. There’s a Tost tow hook sitting in my hangar that would fit perfectly on a Carbon Cub.
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