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Thread: ADS-B Issues

  1. #121
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Oh come on Jake! Those hours of wiring are how I make my living!

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  2. #122

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    ADS-B Issues

    I put in the uAvionix tail beacon about 10 days after it was certified. I used a Dremmel to make some room in the cup and save all the material I could. Seemed to work well. Removal of the material took maybe an hour. Did a little magic with the mounting bezel as I didn’t make enough room in the cup to allow it to twist enough for a standard install. But the operational flight test went good. No issues. Click image for larger version. 

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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by C130jake View Post
    Installed skybeacon on our PA12 and worked great right out of the box. I put one on my CCEX and get an ID error.
    Attachment 45797

    My Xpdr is a Garmin GTX23ES remote running thru my G3X Touch.
    Any idea on what setting I’m messing up? (I realize my Xpdr has ADSb out but the Garmin certified GPS and wiring was the same cost and hours or days of wiring headaches vs 10 minutes.

    Thanks,

    Jake
    You've probably already done this, but I would verify the ICAO and N Number were saved correctly in the configuration first. If it's not that, I'd give uAvionix a call. I would expect this to be something pretty obvious in the configuration table.

    -Cub Builder
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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    ... if the interrogation signal is coming from the left and the unit is mounted on the right wing tip, does the airframe block out all or part of the signal?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Builder View Post
    The interrogation of the transponder usually comes from radar sites. Some areas of the country have sketchy coverage. Any time a Mode-C transponder replies to an interrogation, it sends the squawk code and Baro Alt as part of the data packet. .. The uAvionix ADS-B Out units are passive as far as the transponders go. They just listen in and sniff the data being broadcast by the transponder on 1090 MHZ, then incorporate that data into the UAT Output on 978 MHZ. If the transponder doesn't reply to an interrogation from RADAR, the ADS-B unit doesn't get updated data. After 45 - 60 seconds without getting refreshed data from the transponder, the data is considered stale and times out, so the ADS-B unit stops sending the squawk and Baro Alt data causing Mode 3A and Baro Alt failures respectively. These seem to be pretty typical of the uAvionics units in areas with poor radar coverage. If you fly the plane in an area with good radar coverage, the same unit will pass the PAPR.
    -Cub Builder
    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Builder View Post
    ......to help with the issue if you see the transponder is getting interrogated but the ADS-B unit isn't picking up the data reliably. However, those adjustments don't help if the transponder isn't being interrogated or isn't replying. If you don't see the "reply" or "transmit" light on the transponder flashing regularly, the ADS-B unit is not getting data if it is relying on sniffing the data from the transponder broadcast. If the transponder is flashing regularly indicating that it is being interrogated and replying to the interrogation, and you are seeing Mode 3A and Baro Alt failures, then it's time to start looking at antenna locations, reflectivity, blocking, RF interference or transponder output.

    -Cub Builder
    I must be misinformed. It was my understanding when the FAA sold us on the idea of this new ADS-B mandate, they wanted to eliminate the radar ATC system and move all of the current radar functions into this new ADS-B system. Their eventual goal was to eliminate the excessive operation and maintenance costs of Radar?

    Now, since these ADS-B out systems require a transponder output and that output does not happen unless the radar asks for it, how will this ADS-B system work when the radar is shut down? OR have we been lied to again and this is just one more step into being totally controlled by "big brother"?

    I understand that the 1090 mhz units talk to satellites, however the 978 mhz units must be interrogated by radar. Since the 978 units are approved as being acceptable, then it must be another false premise that the radar is to be shut down.
    N1PA

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by mydoghasa170 View Post
    I put in the uAvionix tail beacon about 10 days after it was certified. I used a Dremmel to make some room in the cup and save all the material I could. Seemed to work well. Removal of the material took maybe an hour. Did a little magic with the mounting bezel as I didn’t make enough room in the cup to allow it to twist enough for a standard install. But the operational flight test went good. No issues. Click image for larger version. 

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    No issue with the depth of the tailBeacon hitting the fabric?
    Steve Pierce

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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I must be misinformed. It was my understanding when the FAA sold us on the idea of this new ADS-B mandate, they wanted to eliminate the radar ATC system and move all of the current radar functions into this new ADS-B system. Their eventual goal was to eliminate the excessive operation and maintenance costs of Radar?

    Now, since these ADS-B out systems require a transponder output and that output does not happen unless the radar asks for it, how will this ADS-B system work when the radar is shut down? OR have we been lied to again and this is just one more step into being totally controlled by "big brother"?

    I understand that the 1090 mhz units talk to satellites, however the 978 mhz units must be interrogated by radar. Since the 978 units are approved as being acceptable, then it must be another false premise that the radar is to be shut down.
    Bingo!

    MTV
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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    ….Last week, I got the “next” email from FAA, stating tha EVERY flight since September 9 exhibited at least one “fatal” (my term) error. As in every flight failed. ...
    Mike, I'm curious if your Skybeacon was in "anonymous" or regular mode?
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I must be misinformed. It was my understanding when the FAA sold us on the idea of this new ADS-B mandate, they wanted to eliminate the radar ATC system and move all of the current radar functions into this new ADS-B system. Their eventual goal was to eliminate the excessive operation and maintenance costs of Radar?

    Now, since these ADS-B out systems require a transponder output and that output does not happen unless the radar asks for it, how will this ADS-B system work when the radar is shut down? OR have we been lied to again and this is just one more step into being totally controlled by "big brother"?

    I understand that the 1090 mhz units talk to satellites, however the 978 mhz units must be interrogated by radar. Since the 978 units are approved as being acceptable, then it must be another false premise that the radar is to be shut down.

    The 1090-ES system is a RADAR transponder. The FAA isn't going to eliminate RADAR. The ADS-B system is to "enhance" radar. This was the next step after Mode-S, and they gave many of us a less expensive option to use UAT instead of Mode-S with Extended Squitter. The whole system is completely RADAR dependent, so there was never any plan to eliminate RADAR. Only to enhance it.

    The UAT systems broadcast once a second. There is no interrogation to trigger it. In some configurations (tail and wing tip beacons) the Mode-C transponder has to reply to an interrogation in order for ADS-B unit to read the Squawk and Baro Alt data from the Mode-C transponder so it can rebroadcast the data on 978 mhz. That was part of the FAA's TSO requirement is that the Transponder and ADS-B Out are required to use the same source for squawk and Baro Alt Data. Some units can be wired directly to the transponder (if you have a modern transponder with a serial output) so they always have current data without needing to decipher the transponder replies.

    The 1090-ES systems can be received by satellite, which will be a requirement in Canada, but most transponders are not capable of driving a top antenna as well as a bottom antenna (labelled as antenna diversity), so that is creating a whole new issue. But they are getting a lot of industry push back and have pushed back the implementation date and it doesn't look like it will affect the airspace most of us use for some time yet. Good Article on that on the AOPA web site.

    -Cub Builder
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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    Mike, I'm curious if your Skybeacon was in "anonymous" or regular mode?
    FWIW, Anonymous mode will only mask your registration number for purposes of privacy from web site trackers. You still broadcast your ICAO number, so the FAA still knows who you are.

    -Cub Builder
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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    Mike, I'm curious if your Skybeacon was in "anonymous" or regular mode?
    It's been on "regular" mode ever since I started getting error reports, since one possibility was that the anonymous mode was at least partially responsible for the error reports. Made no difference.

    MTV
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  11. #131
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    It's been on "regular" mode ever since I started getting error reports, since one possibility was that the anonymous mode was at least partially responsible for the error reports. Made no difference.

    MTV
    I’d start simple. Like bad connection somewhere or bad breaker or switch breaking down as it transmits... I bet it draws more than a light


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  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Builder View Post
    FWIW, Anonymous mode will only mask your registration number for purposes of privacy from web site trackers. You still broadcast your ICAO number, so the FAA still knows who you are.
    Are you sure about this? Assuming a Mode C transponder squawking 1200 coupled with a 978 UAT-out device configured for anonymous mode, I don't see how this would happen. Disregard if we're talking about a Mode S transponder.

    The SkyBeacon install manual says both ICAO code and Call Sign (N-number) are randomized.

    In anonymous mode, skyBeacon transmits a randomized temporary address instead of the aircraft’s assigned ICAO address code, and a non- identifying Call Sign. The temporary address and Call Sign are disabled if the operator selects a non-1200 squawk code on the transponder. When enabled, the operator will not be eligible to receive ATC services.
    Same for GDL-82

    In anonymous mode, the GDL 82 transmits a temporary address instead of the aircraft’s assigned ICAO address code, and a temporary Flight ID.
    Aside from the firmware bugs which were present in earlier versions of both SkyBeacon and GDL-82 (now corrected), these units should not be transmitting uniquely identifying information when in anonymous mode.
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  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    No issue with the depth of the tailBeacon hitting the fabric?
    Steve--I'll post photos tomorrow. It was an issue with mine and required some modification.
    Marine Corps Aviation since 1966

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by fancypants View Post
    Are you sure about this? Assuming a Mode C transponder squawking 1200 coupled with a 978 UAT-out device configured for anonymous mode, I don't see how this would happen. Disregard if we're talking about a Mode S transponder.

    The SkyBeacon install manual says both ICAO code and Call Sign (N-number) are randomized.
    I stand corrected. Thank you.

    -Cub Builder
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    Bump


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  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Builder View Post
    FWIW, Anonymous mode will only mask your registration number for purposes of privacy from web site trackers. You still broadcast your ICAO number, so the FAA still knows who you are. -Cub Builder
    That seems to be a common opinion.
    However, it's my understanding that in anonymous the Skybeacon / Tailbeacon
    transmit a "random temporary address" as per Fancypants' post.
    I know that if I request a PAPR report for a flight when my Tailbeacon was set for anonymous,
    I get a reply that says "your performance report request ….failed to generate a result."
    That says to me that I am anonymous to the guvmint.
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  17. #137

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    ADS-B Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    No issue with the depth of the tailBeacon hitting the fabric?
    No. Not on this one. If one presses, or pitches on either side of rudder, to “find” it, you can, but it’s well away from the fabric. I did, very slightly, “improve the radius” of the back of the unit, just in case. I’ll soon do another on a maule. Just eye-balling that one, I’ll be surprised if there is a not clearance issue. I’ll report back for the Maule dudes. I’d guess there will be some variances among the cubs as well.

    As an aside, Maule tail navs (some at least) are grounded through the NAV bezel itself (no ground wire). A thread In a Maule blog reports the aluminum case of the uAvionix NAV unit is a sufficient ground when screwed to the mounting structure. Wild.


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  18. #138
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    Isn't it great that we are being chastised for a faulty system we didn't ask for. When Mode S became mandatory in Europe, all the new mode s transponders overloaded the system in Amsterdam and they had to shut them off. This is really about tracking us and sending a mileage bill, as planned for the highway system as well. I smell a rat, big time. BTW... Is anyone actually looking where they're going anymore? Would the public accept tracking of cars by anyone and everyone? No way. The thin edge of the wedge, once again.
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  19. #139

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    ADS-B Issues

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiskeyMike View Post
    Isn't it great that we are being chastised for a faulty system we didn't ask for. When Mode S became mandatory in Europe, all the new mode s transponders overloaded the system in Amsterdam and they had to shut them off. This is really about tracking us and sending a mileage bill, as planned for the highway system as well. I smell a rat, big time. BTW... Is anyone actually looking where they're going anymore? Would the public accept tracking of cars by anyone and everyone? No way. The thin edge of the wedge, once again.
    I was thinking the same thing as I was scud running my sorry behind to an airport up here in AK today. I wouldn’t be too enthused about folks knowing where i was; unless I schucked a motor, of course. But then, on the way back, I passed a like minded idiot going the opposite direction but differed by 200’!! Would have been nice to see that guy before he was that close! The nice part of (most) of the “big brother” switches is that they can be turned ON/OFF. Take it or leave it on a daily basis.


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  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I must be misinformed. It was my understanding when the FAA sold us on the idea of this new ADS-B mandate, they wanted to eliminate the radar ATC system and move all of the current radar functions into this new ADS-B system. Their eventual goal was to eliminate the excessive operation and maintenance costs of Radar?

    Now, since these ADS-B out systems require a transponder output and that output does not happen unless the radar asks for it, how will this ADS-B system work when the radar is shut down? OR have we been lied to again and this is just one more step into being totally controlled by "big brother"?

    I understand that the 1090 mhz units talk to satellites, however the 978 mhz units must be interrogated by radar. Since the 978 units are approved as being acceptable, then it must be another false premise that the radar is to be shut down.
    I question how radar fits into this when ship to ship talk to each other when out of radar coverage? I can see other Out equipped planes on my In and they can see my Out when we’re both in the backcountry and well out of radar coverage.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp
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  21. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinner2 View Post
    I question how radar fits into this when ship to ship talk to each other when out of radar coverage? I can see other Out equipped planes on my In and they can see my Out when we’re both in the backcountry and well out of radar coverage.
    Which frequency is your equipment operating on, 978 mhz or 1090 mhz? It is my understanding that only the 1090 mhz units talk to each other. The 978 mhz units have to communicate through a ground station prior to passing the signal to other aircraft.
    N1PA
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  22. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Which frequency is your equipment operating on, 978 mhz or 1090 mhz? It is my understanding that only the 1090 mhz units talk to each other. The 978 mhz units have to communicate through a ground station prior to passing the signal to other aircraft.
    1090 in the Cessna and 978 in the Cub.

    I think the upcoming system in Canada is where 1090 talks to satellites. Our 1090 is ground based or ship to ship as I understand it.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp

  23. #143
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    It's complicated, and I don't fully grasp all of it, but the scenario spinner2 is talking about is not dependent on radar coverage. Both implementations of ADS-B out (1090ES and 978 UAT) will regularly transmit position and velocity data, regardless of radar coverage. So if your ADS-B in equipment can receive both 1090 and 978 (as most consumer portable ADS-B in equipment can), you should be able to see everything that's being broadcast near you. Some ADS-B in equipment only listens on 1090, requiring a ground station to rebroadcast (ADS-R) the 978 UAT data on 1090.

    This PDF seems to lay it out pretty well: https://www.sigidwiki.com/images/8/8...00_Avidyne.pdf
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  24. #144
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    Radar will not go away. Radar is needed to see the bad guy’s basic skin paint when they turn off the transponder including any ads-b transmission. So there will always be some form of basic radar coverage within national airspace.


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  25. #145
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    I find it "interesting" that this system, which has been in the building for years, is nationwide in scope, and will become mandatory at least in some airspace in a little over a month is still incredibly misunderstood by a high percentage of pilots and airplane owners. And, I'm one of those, even though I've spent a fair amount of time trying to understand it's nuances.

    I've said this before, but this has to be the most screwed up program the FAA has ever put together.....and that's saying something.

    MTV

  26. #146
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    PA-12 Uavionix ADS-B out install

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Marine Corps Aviation since 1966

  27. #147

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seaworthy View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    That looks nice and clean. Hard to tell from the photos—are you using a spacer? It doesn’t look like you are hitting the fabric at all.

    Joe

  28. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    I find it "interesting" that this system, which has been in the building for years, is nationwide in scope, and will become mandatory at least in some airspace in a little over a month is still incredibly misunderstood by a high percentage of pilots and airplane owners. …..
    I agree.
    ADS-B is just a month away from being mandatory.
    Seems like active pilots, at least those in or near "rule airspace", would know more.
    Of course, LSA & sport pilot rules have been in place for what, about 10 years now,
    and lots of pilots still don't get that.
    Ditto BasicMed.
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  29. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by joemcd View Post
    That looks nice and clean. Hard to tell from the photos—are you using a spacer? It doesn’t look like you are hitting the fabric at all.

    Joe
    Yes---the locking mechanism/ space is installed
    Marine Corps Aviation since 1966

  30. #150
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    My errors are all NIC errors, and according to the FAA, those are bad.

    MTV
    did you get yours working yet?

  31. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    did you get yours working yet?
    Nope. Waited over two weeks for tech support to respond to several messages. Finally responded the day before I left on a trip with the advice : “Check the ground connection.” I will double check that when I get home.

    Anyone who installs one of these things needs to regularly request a PAPR report, to make certain the thing is working.

    MTV
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  32. #152

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    MTV: It is my understanding that many folks have been having trouble with the SkyBeacon wingtip item. Because of this I opted to go without the wingtip or the tail strobe option 'til they iron out the issues...
    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Well, I received the dreaded phone call from the FAA in Washington DC recently, letting me know that my newly installed ADS-B unit was intermittently transmitting error messages. Perfect......

    Fortunately, the FAA gent was very polite, and totally non threatening. His recommendation was to contact the manufacturer, which I have now done.....a few times.

    One of the "error flights" (for lack of a better way to describe them) was a VERY short flight from the local airport to a private airport right on the edge of the Class D airspace. I went there for a fly in brunch. Had breakfast, then hopped in the plane and flew back to the airport. As you can imagine, both the outbound and return flights were very brief. According to the FAA guy, the outbound flight was fine (and understand that I never got over 1000 feet), with continuous and accurate information.

    The return flight, however, involved several errors. On that flight I stayed around 500 agl, so I postulated that maybe the error was caused by me being too low. His response was "Nope, we have your altitude data, the error was something else, and your unit was transmitting your tail number accurately". Great, I'm in the air for a few minutes and busted......

    I've now resolved (I hope--fingers crossed) the issues, and in the process, I've learned a few more things about ADS-B. Here are some of those:

    1. When you have your ADS-B Out unit set to "Anonymous mode", the unit still transmits your tail number to the FAA. The only anonymity is that your tail number is blocked to the "Public". So, if you're paranoid about Joe the child molester down the street possibly tracking you, set that puppy to anonymous mode, but understand that the FAA will still receive all the data they would have if the unit were in normal mode.

    2. These units all rely on a WAAS enabled GPS. As most of us know, it takes a GPS a few minutes to establish an accurate location, particularly if the unit hasn't been turned on fairly recently. In fact, according to the techs I spoke to, this process will often require up to five minutes. If you take off before that WAAS GPS establishes an accurate set of coordinates, your ADS-B will snitch you out to The Man......with an error message. So, we're guessing that's what happened on my short trip.....the taxi out and run up at the airport allowed plenty of time for the unit to acquire the satellites and establish position data. On the other hand, when I returned, I taxiied out a very short distance (150 feet??) and took off. Turns out that the first half of that flight returned an error message, presumably because I hadn't waited long enough for the GPS to stabilize.

    So, if you'd really rather not talk to a very polite FAA guy in D.C., make sure before every takeoff after a shutdown that you've given your GPS time to find itself......maybe five minutes. Yeah, I know.....but.

    3. Frankly, I was surprised that they were able to track my return flight, because I was pretty low. There are no GBTs anywhere near here, but there is a low power ATC radar, so they were undoubtedly getting the data from the radar, not a GBT. I have tried to get ADS-B Out (or more accurately-FIS-B) for weather data around here, and below my normal operating altitudes, it was a no go. Hence I use XM Satellite Weather.

    My unit is a uAvionix Sky Beacon, mounted on a wing tip. I contacted their tech help, and they sent me a link to a software update, and walked me through the upload process. There are some traps in there, nothing ugly, but a bit frustrating if you don't know how to duck them. But, the techs were patient and very helpful. Apparently, some of the older transponders are not exactly functioning precisely as intended, and this software update is intended to fix some of those problems. Also, my unit was set to a threshold of 30 at the factory, and they instructed me to reset that to 35 (don't ask me what that means, just following instructions), and they said that may have caused some of the problems.

    Anyway, I've now informed my new best buddy at the FAA that I've uploaded the update and reset some parameters. I'm sure he'll be waiting with bated breath for my next flight. I have for years kept a list of the shittiest jobs on earth. His is now in the top three.

    Hope this helps.

    MTV

  33. #153
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Whatever,

    Yes, that is also my understanding. The Skybeacon may in fact be a little worse than the tailbeacon. I only went with the Skybeacon to get the FAA rebate. One of the problems with the Skybeacon is that maneuvering flight MAY cause errors in the signal, I'm told.

    We'll see what I find with ground connections when I get home. They've told me they'll replace the unit if that doesn't fix it. Assuming I can get through to them.

    They are doubtless busy because of the approaching deadline for equipage. That said, they are also likely busy trying to deal with issues like mine.

    MTV
    Thanks mike mcs repair thanked for this post

  34. #154
    kase's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub Builder View Post
    FWIW, Anonymous mode will only mask your registration number for purposes of privacy from web site trackers. You still broadcast your ICAO number, so the FAA still knows who you are.

    -Cub Builder
    That has been my experience also. I was flying this am, called approach and asked them if they can still see my n number since I’m anonymous squawking 1200 . Answer was “ affirmative “
    Likes mike mcs repair liked this post

  35. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by kase View Post
    …..called approach and asked them if they can still see my n number since I’m anonymous squawking 1200 . Answer was “ affirmative “
    Which ADS-B unit?

    FWIW I deselected the anonymous mode yesterday on my Tailbeacon,
    then file a PAPR request.
    All good, no red flags.
    Back to anonymous.
    Last edited by hotrod180; 12-25-2019 at 11:13 AM.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  36. #156
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    I redid all connections to the SkyBeacon and flew it again. Requested a report, and results were consistent with previous reports, 23% NIC errors.

    uAvionix received my message with that data, and have agreed to replace the unit.

    MTV

  37. #157
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    I redid all connections to the SkyBeacon and flew it again. Requested a report, and results were consistent with previous reports, 23% NIC errors.

    uAvionix received my message with that data, and have agreed to replace the unit.

    MTV
    have you tried bypassing the breaker and switch at panel or wherever to rule them out?

  38. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    Which ADS-B unit?

    FWIW I deselected the anonymous mode yesterday on my Tailbeacon,
    then file a PAPE request.
    All good, no red flags.
    Back to anonymous.
    Skybeacon. I was anonymous and requested papr report. Still working good. Your only hiding your n number from other airplanes and commercial flight tracker programs. Atc can click on any vfr target and if you have adsb your call sign will show up.
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  39. #159
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    kase, I don't doubt your experience and professional knowledge of the topic. I'm still trying to figure out how that is possible given what I've read about how 978 UAT anonymous mode works. If it's true that any ATC facility can positively identify any anonymous VFR target based solely on the data transmitted by their 978 UAT device, then there's a piece of the puzzle that's still hidden. More than anything, I just want to understand how it all works.

  40. #160
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    For those that haven't seen a performance report.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"
    Thanks mike mcs repair, Farmboy thanked for this post

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