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Thread: ADS-B Issues

  1. #201
    SJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdafoe View Post
    Hmm, This data comes from lots of sources looks like. I presume it is also live not just historical.Sources

    This database is built and maintained from the following sources:
    • Official aircraft registries
    • Various Basestation.sqb files
    • Crowdsourced and manually collected data from various people (e.g. Oxford data analyst Martin Strohmeier)
    • openflights.org
    • ICAO Doc 8643

    We accept additional aircraft data in any format (CSV, BaseStation.sqb, ...)! Just contact contact@opensky-network.org for further instructions

    Gerald, Absolutely live with no delay. it's crowdsourced around the world. People get free receivers (basically little raspberry pi's with receivers plugged in) with the agreement they will provide data. You can also purchase historical information. FlightAware and FlightRadar24 are also crowdsourced in this manner.

    I love data... I don't love what they might do with it all...

    sj
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  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    I was thinking that, as long as you aren’t 1090es, where your ICAO is programmed into the transponder, what would stop someone from programming their skyBeacon or other adsb system to some other N# and ICAO code. Lots of registered airplanes that never move that one could “borrow” the ID from


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Which would mean that you’d NEVER go into any kind of ATC controlled airspace, like tower controlled, since your radio comm tail # wouldn’t match your ADS-B signal. At least on the SkyBeacon, you can’t change your data in flight......only a small window right after turning it on.
    And if that were the case, why would you spend the money to install anyway.

    Break out the tin foil hats. Lots of other reasons to be concerned about this, but, not this.
    MTV

  3. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    Gerald, Absolutely live with no delay. it's crowdsourced around the world. People get free receivers (basically little raspberry pi's with receivers plugged in) with the agreement they will provide data. You can also purchase historical information. FlightAware and FlightRadar24 are also crowdsourced in this manner.

    I love data... I don't love what they might do with it all...

    sj
    There it is. The FAA says if I have ADS-B installed it must be transmitting, The FAA accepted my data block form and yet my info is broadcast around the world for anyone to see. My 1090 will remain off until I choose to turn it on. I welcome the FAA to take exception to that given that they can't protect the data they're requiring me to transmit. Removing my equipment would be simple enough, if it comes to that. For you guys that need ADS-B and elected to use 1090? You should be pissed off. Where'S AOPA on this issue?
    Last edited by stewartb; 12-30-2019 at 10:54 AM.
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  4. #204
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    Are people really that worried about someone tracking them?
    Unless you've got the mafia or a pissed off ex-wife after you,
    I don't get it.
    Not only is no one tracking me--
    when I try to tell people about where I went, no one even cares.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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  5. #205

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    Can I imagine guys interested in where I'm hunting or fishing to look up a track? Absolutely. Would I be interested in where other guys are going? Absolutely. But in the bigger picture it doesn't matter whether anyone wants to as much as that they can. The government has no business requiring me to provide my locations to the world, especially when they've established that they support blocking that info, but can't.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kid View Post
    What I am understanding is that, with OUT installed, it must be ON whenever I fly, period. OK, but am I then subject to FAA scrutiny for every flight with emails and phone calls coming, that I didn't have before I installed OUT (I haven't installed it yet), if for some reason they didn't get my signal (I dropped to 500' agl) or I was at the wrong altitude for a short period of time because of down-drafts or whatever? Other words I am a little wary of this "watching me".
    Looks like you're in Thompson Falls MT--
    where's the nearest "rule airspace"?
    And do you fly into it much?
    If I didn't live within 15 miles of SeaTac's mode C veil,
    and about 5 miles from NAS Whidbey's class C,
    and didn't fly into both of them quite often,
    I wouldn't have bothered installing ADS-B.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  7. #207
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    MTV,
    Regarding your uAvionix unit: if you've covered this earlier, my apologies. How have you "grounded" the unit? More precisely, are the power return currents traveling through the wing structure and wing root bolts? If so, this may be the problem. The wing root bolts fret in flight, creating very brief (millisecond) interruptions in the return current from the lamps, generating consider RF noise (via gigantic variable ground loops), and perhaps affecting the power delivery to the unit. You would never see the effects in nav or landing lights, but experience shows that the RF noise is strong enough to disrupt reception in earlier GPS units. The ADS-B unit be be affected by the brief power interruptions as well.

    The best solution is a direct ground wire (preferable twisted pair with the power), but short of that, a jumper around the wing root bolts should help.

    Just a thought.

    S
    Idaho drinks more wine per person than any other state in the country.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    Are people really that worried about someone tracking them?
    Unless you've got the mafia or a pissed off ex-wife after you,
    I don't get it.
    Not only is no one tracking me--
    when I try to tell people about where I went, no one even cares.
    In the old days when you (we) could go just about anywhere we pleased without a care in the World, we did not care and no one else cared. It was "Oh look, a Piper Cub! What fun!". Now it is "Let's turn him in, that rich bastid shouldn't be doing that".
    Now in the 21st century when cell phone cameras are everywhere and people who know nothing and care not one bit about aviation are prolific in complaining about anyone doing things that they do not care to do are also everywhere, we must cover our derrieres. We used to be able to land in most any field, on any beach, in any pond, fly under any bridge etc. We just can't have fun anymore. Now they mandate that we spend bug bucks to install a piece of electronics in our airplane so that they can keep track of us, so that they can violate us if we make just the tiniest slip up.

    I have been reticent about this entire ADS-B thingy from the beginning. Now that the date is here, I had just about talked myself into installing a new replacement transponder which handles the ADS-B out on 1090 Mhz. With these recent bits of information which have presented themselves within the past couple of weeks, I have decided that my electronics will remain "broken". I live and fly under a class B airspace. One plane has no electrical system the other does. They will have to prove which plane I'm flying. Not this finger to them !

  9. #209

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    And let’s not forget user fees. There is and will be a group in Congress that will constantly seek to tax out aviation activities. Mode S transponders, and now ADSB gives the government the tools to easily track and charge for the use of airspace we already own.


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  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    I flew yesterday, in anonymous mode,
    after which I requested a PAPR.
    To my surprise, I did get a report.
    So it is anonymous to everyone BUT the government, after all.
    I guess the "scrambled signal" isn't quite as scrambled as I thought.
    I did the same thing today. I flew to an ADSB towered area to the east with my UAT (Garmin GDL82) in anonymous mode. An hour or so after landing I requested a Performance Report using my N number and their system had no problem finding me.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp
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  11. #211
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    Anyone know why I loose TISB service when I’m well within coverage? Today it blinked on and off 3 or 4 times. As you can see at the bottom of the image I had an excellent signal but not always getting an uplink.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp

  12. #212
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    Those who are worried about privacy might find this of interest.

    https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2019/december/24/ads-b-privacy-now-available
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    Those who are worried about privacy might find this of interest.

    https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2019/december/24/ads-b-privacy-now-available
    Not for us little guys...
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinner2 View Post
    Anyone know why I loose TISB service when I’m well within coverage? Today it blinked on and off 3 or 4 times. As you can see at the bottom of the image I had an excellent signal but not always getting an uplink.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Because it's an FAA system????

    Sorry, Dan, couldn't resist....

    MTV
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  15. #215
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    So with no ADS B, and flying near a class B or C airspace with just a transponder can one still get flight following?


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  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    So with no ADS B, and flying near a class B or C airspace with just a transponder can one still get flight following?


    Sent from my Pixel 2 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    My understanding is yes, though make sure you’re not too close to the class B. From the mode C veil inward is where ADS-B is required at a class B.

  17. #217

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    The ADAPT program allows you to fly in ADS-b space as long as you have a mode c xponder. It gives you authorization from FAA but ATC can turn you down if they are busy, if you dont need to talk to atc than you are golden with the ADAPT authorization.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie747 View Post
    The ADAPT program allows you to fly in ADS-b space as long as you have a mode c xponder. It gives you authorization from FAA but ATC can turn you down if they are busy, if you dont need to talk to atc than you are golden with the ADAPT authorization.
    The FAA has developed the ADS-B Deviation Authorization Preflight Tool (ADAPT) to manage these authorization requests.
    In order to be considered for an ADS-B deviation authorization with ADAPT, requests must meet the following criteria:

    • Aircraft must be equipped with an operational transponder and operational altitude encoder (e. g., Mode C)
    • Request submitted no more than 24 hours before flight
    • Request submitted no less than 1 hour before flight

    Please note: The FAA will not issue in-flight authorizations to operators of non-equipped aircraft, nor will air traffic control (ATC) facilities accept requests for these types of authorizations by telephone.
    N1PA

  19. #219

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    The FAA has developed the ADS-B Deviation Authorization Preflight Tool (ADAPT) to manage these authorization requests.
    In order to be considered for an ADS-B deviation authorization with ADAPT, requests must meet the following criteria:

    • Aircraft must be equipped with an operational transponder and operational altitude encoder (e. g., Mode C)
    • Request submitted no more than 24 hours before flight
    • Request submitted no less than 1 hour before flight

    Please note: The FAA will not issue in-flight authorizations to operators of non-equipped aircraft, nor will air traffic control (ATC) facilities accept requests for these types of authorizations by telephone.
    Yes, just a mode C transponder and you’re in like Flynn

  20. #220
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    Not if ATC decides they’re busy. ATC still has to agree.

    MTV

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    From a different forum, a controller in Chicago posted this, they don’t even monitor who is or isn’t ADSB
    As a controller at the busiest stand alone TRACON in the country I will say that we haven't been briefed on what to do reference ADS-B. We don't even monitor it on the scopes even though the ability exists. Not sure what ATC is or isn't doing around the rest of the country but if you were to fly into Chicago, it wouldn't be any different than last month. Maybe that will change soon and I'll try to report back if we are briefed differently.


  22. #222

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    Not if ATC decides they’re busy. ATC still has to agree.

    MTV
    This thread has allot of good info and questions,
    So, to me this brings up a question about deviations, thinking to the near future such as this coming Oshkosh. Probably even Sun & Fun.
    These will be the first real high density controlled airspace with the lowest proportion of ADS B equipped aircraft. I am curious how these events will be handled.
    Obviously they have a very well understood visual system that offers little value for the ADSB system, at least in the near future.
    But will this be a frustration for the regulators or a technical breeding ground for system and procedure analysis?

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    This thread has allot of good info and questions,
    So, to me this brings up a question about deviations, thinking to the near future such as this coming Oshkosh. Probably even Sun & Fun.
    These will be the first real high density controlled airspace with the lowest proportion of ADS B equipped aircraft. I am curious how these events will be handled.
    Obviously they have a very well understood visual system that offers little value for the ADSB system, at least in the near future.
    But will this be a frustration for the regulators or a technical breeding ground for system and procedure analysis?
    First, OSH does not lie in “Rule Airspace”, so not required there.

    Second, in previous years, the Airventure Notam required all transponders OFF within ~ 30 miles of OSH. This last year (2019) the Notam specifically called for transponders to remain ON. I assumed that was to take advantage of potential traffic avoidance with ADS-B.

    Maybe.

    MTV

  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    This thread has allot of good info and questions,
    So, to me this brings up a question about deviations, thinking to the near future such as this coming Oshkosh. Probably even Sun & Fun.
    These will be the first real high density controlled airspace with the lowest proportion of ADS B equipped aircraft. I am curious how these events will be handled.
    Obviously they have a very well understood visual system that offers little value for the ADSB system, at least in the near future.
    But will this be a frustration for the regulators or a technical breeding ground for system and procedure analysis?
    Frankly, this doesn’t surprise me at all. Have I mentioned how screwed up this program is?

    MTV

  25. #225
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    "The one area where Duke expects the FAA to be serious from the start involves intentionally turning off an ADS-B system when an exception does not apply. According to the handbook, “operating an aircraft without activated transponder or ADS-B Out transmission (except as provided in FAR 91.225(f)) for purposes of evading detection” will generally warrant certificate revocation."

    https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...m_medium=email

    I wonder how the FAA will treat turning off ADS-B in non-rule airspace. I assume they will treat everything as "for the purpose of evading detection".
    Idaho drinks more wine per person than any other state in the country.
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  26. #226

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    I found it interesting this past week that one of the B-17 tour planes flew half way across the country without it's ADSB reporting. It just came out of it's major wing inspection so possibly it was an anomaly but I do say it seemed a bit odd that a rather long multi day flight flown at rather low altitudes would be done with transponder off.

  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    I found it interesting this past week that one of the B-17 tour planes flew half way across the country without it's ADSB reporting. It just came out of it's major wing inspection so possibly it was an anomaly but I do say it seemed a bit odd that a rather long multi day flight flown at rather low altitudes would be done with transponder off.
    So if he did not fly through any of the mandatory air space, what's the big deal? It would not have been required.
    N1PA

  28. #228

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    So if he did not fly through any of the mandatory air space, what's the big deal? It would not have been required.
    True, they generally cruise at 2500 AGL or less so they are no where near any limits. Chicago must have required a great circle.
    Part of me is just trying to make sense of rules that seem to say if the plane is equipped it must be on.

  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    I found it interesting this past week that one of the B-17 tour planes flew half way across the country without it's ADSB reporting. It just came out of it's major wing inspection so possibly it was an anomaly but I do say it seemed a bit odd that a rather long multi day flight flown at rather low altitudes would be done with transponder off.
    if the transponder was off, AND they didn’t fly in any rule airspace, how would any body with authority know? Do you know for sure that the plane is in fact ADS-B equipped?

    Im hearing from various sources that some ATC facilities aren’t monitoring ADS-B. So, who gives a ****?

    MTV
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  30. #230
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    if the transponder was off, AND they didn’t fly in any rule airspace, how would any body with authority know? Do you know for sure that the plane is in fact ADS-B equipped?

    Im hearing from various sources that some ATC facilities aren’t monitoring ADS-B. So, who gives a ****?

    MTV
    and..... did they figure out you're issue yet??
    how long has it been?

  31. #231

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    if the transponder was off, AND they didn’t fly in any rule airspace, how would any body with authority know? Do you know for sure that the plane is in fact ADS-B equipped?

    Im hearing from various sources that some ATC facilities aren’t monitoring ADS-B. So, who gives a ****?

    MTV
    Yes I have hosted tour events with this plane and keep a watch on FR24 and Flight Aware. This time they showed up, not in flight but just that they filed a flight plan for one leg in the middle of their route.
    So yes, Who gives****, clearly we still do have some freedom, at least for the time being.

  32. #232

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    Thinking on this a bit, for the past few years I have been planning to host two tower tours, just could not get much chapter interest. We have two training facilities here in the Northeast with very good managers. I was last in one of the towers in 2016.
    Now that their new equipment is manned and operating I think there is more value to set up a few tours this coming summer.

  33. #233
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    and..... did they figure out you're issue yet??
    how long has it been?
    Mike, uAvionix did finally send a replacement unit. Feds turned my signal off in mid November, uAvionix finally delivered a replacement in early January. Life and weather conspired and finally got a flight done a week and a half ago. The PAPR on that flight showed no errors, whereas previous flights had 23% plus errors. I also noted that on the first unit, the red blinking light which indicates the unit hasn’t initialized yet, or has a problem of some kind, took several minutes (ten or so) to extinguish prior to flight. This unit, stops flashing in just a minute or so.

    So, I’m hopeful the problem is fixed. I’m told that uAvionix had to replace a number of the early units. And, of course, they’re probably still selling these things like hot cakes. They’ve also just bought a new company that’s producing 3 1/8 inch PFDs and DGs, trying to compete with Garmin G-5. So they’re busy.

    It’s a young Montana company, so hopefully, they’ll get it all together and produce good quality equipment.

    MTV
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  34. #234
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    Glad you appear to have gotten squared away, Mike.
    Where in MT are they?
    Kinda surprised when your problems weren't getting any attention that you didn't just show up at uAvionix HQ in person.
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  35. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    Glad you appear to have gotten squared away, Mike.
    Where in MT are they?
    Kinda surprised when your problems weren't getting any attention that you didn't just show up at uAvionix HQ in person.
    Their corporate address is in Bigfork. The stuff is supposedly manufactured in Columbia Falls, I'm told.

    Still a long hike from BZN.

    MTV

  36. #236
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    Just got my uAvionix echoUAT installed earlier this week and my test flight done today. Simple install, but I had some problems with iPhone compatibility on the configuration app. Tech support was prompt and super helpful. Shoot, we talked airplanes for about 30 minutes - nice folks.

    If you’re having set-up issues in the app, the trick is to put your phone in airplane mode before you try and configure. Turns out the smartphones realize there’s no internet connection from the WiFi signal and although they’re connected they just ignore it.

    Easy pass on today’s flight. Glad to have flocked that booger.
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  37. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    So with no ADS B, and flying near a class B or C airspace with just a transponder can one still get flight following?


    Sent from my Pixel 2 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    Tim--was talking to Boston TRACON a few weeks back and asked them how my ADS-B looked. Took them almost ten minutes to get back to me and then they said fly around for another ten minutes and do some turns--I was well inside the class B veil ( maybe 15-18 miles from the runways) and over the ocean (about a mile off shore) at 1500' over the water ---- so I guess that they are only equipped, at this point, to see your transponder, and have to go look at another screen or whatever to query your ADS-B. There must be computers that cross reference ADS-B out and a radar target broadcasting 1200 on a transponder or a specific code with a lag time. I know from past experience that in a PA12 without a broadcasting transponder is almost impossible to see on radar 25 miles from Boston. But--that said-- the radar facility itself ( antennas etc) is in Nashua NH-- but they have satellite radar on Cape Cod that they can switch to. Cape Approach is now Boston approach, but I understand that they are still using the local radar for the Coast Guard and the islands etc.
    Marine Corps Aviation since 1966

  38. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjohnson View Post
    "The one area where Duke expects the FAA to be serious from the start involves intentionally turning off an ADS-B system when an exception does not apply. According to the handbook, “operating an aircraft without activated transponder or ADS-B Out transmission (except as provided in FAR 91.225(f)) for purposes of evading detection” will generally warrant certificate revocation."

    https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...m_medium=email

    I wonder how the FAA will treat turning off ADS-B in non-rule airspace. I assume they will treat everything as "for the purpose of evading detection".
    I believe that your question is answered in the very reply you quoted: "The one area where Duke expects the FAA to be serious from the start involves intentionally turning off an ADS-B system when an exception does not apply."

    Further down that same page, it reiterates that, even more explicitly: "The FAA is focused on safety and security," said Justine Harrison, AOPA general counsel. "They will view intentionally turning off your ADS-B unit as a safety and security issue. Pilots can easily make a misstep by turning off their transponder, and there are very limited circumstances which allow a pilot to do so." The next paragraph goes on to say "Civilian aircraft can turn off their ADS-B Out only if specifically instructed to so so by ATC, or if they are the non-lead aircraft in a formation flight," Duke said.

    The cited FAA Order 2150.3C Change 3 specifically shows a list (Figure 9-5 "Single Acts Generally Warranting Revocation", starting on
    pg 9-13) that includes the following item 30: "Operating an aircraft without activated transponder or ADS-B Out transmission (except as provided in 14 C.F.R. 91.225(f)) for purposes of evading detection."

    To me, that's pretty cut and dried: If you are ADS-B Out equipped, the transponder and ADS-B equipment have to be turned on unless ATC tells you to turn it off, or you are part of a formation flight and not the lead aircraft in that formation. The other other "defensible" position would be that the equipment has failed, you've logged that failure in your logs, and placarded the switches accordingly, and you're not flying in rule airspace.

    I read another commentary on this topic, and that author stated that the FAA would probably come down very harshly on a pilot who willfully and knowingly violated the rule, and would likely throw the book at them. The FAA has been sending LOTS of "non-compliance" notices to the owner/operators of ADS-B equipped aircraft whose systems are not working as they should (there are threads in every aviation forum I'm involved in to this effect), so they are not only ABLE to monitor ADS-B traffic, they are ACTIVELY doing so.
    Don't be the person we all read about when they get truly serious about enforcement. Right now, the FAA is treading lightly, giving the pilot community time to come up to speed and get with the program. Sooner or later, though, they are going to get serious about enforcement. I repeat: Don't be that person!
    Jim Parker
    2007 Rans S-6ES

  39. #239
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    For you folks who are knowledgeable about this topic, is there any prohibition against removing ADSB equipment if an owner no longer intends to fly in rule airspace?
    Gordon

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  40. #240
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    The rule reads as ADS-B needed if flying into certain airspace. If installed, it should be on. I see nothing that would prohibit removing it as un necessary if not operating in the specified airspace.

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