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Thread: ADS-B Issues

  1. #161
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fancypants View Post
    kase, I don't doubt your experience and professional knowledge of the topic. I'm still trying to figure out how that is possible given what I've read about how 978 UAT anonymous mode works. If it's true that any ATC facility can positively identify any anonymous VFR target based solely on the data transmitted by their 978 UAT device, then there's a piece of the puzzle that's still hidden. More than anything, I just want to understand how it all works.
    I asked the question of the FAA in DC. He told me that even if your beacon is in anonymous mode, the FAA can still identify your aircraft with your ADS-B out signal. According to him, anon only prevents the public from identifying you.

    And that’s all I know about that. Good luck trying to understand this “system”.

    MTV
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  2. #162
    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Should make "radar contact" easier, even before assigning a squawk? Maybe??
    Gordon

    N4328M KTDO
    My SPOT: tinyurl.com/N4328M (case sensitive)

  3. #163
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    This is a vfr target 45 miles away from the radar antenna. Altitude is 4500.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    ATC can tag the target with any call sign, profanity or what ever. For this purpose the controller typed in "plane" and put it over the target.

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    Then on his radar display in the corner his call sign shows up with his N number N183MA. That's how atc gets your n number when you are vfr not talking to them.

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  4. #164
    Chicken Hawk's Avatar
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    ADS-B Issues

    My ADS-B wiring diagram for my experimental cub.
    Please let me know if I forgot anything!
    Merry Christmas friends!
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Chicken Hawk; 12-25-2019 at 06:34 AM.
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  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by kase View Post
    Skybeacon. I was anonymous and requested papr report. Still working good. Your only hiding your n number from other airplanes and commercial flight tracker programs. Atc can click on any vfr target and if you have adsb your call sign will show up.
    Interesting.
    I normally operate in anonymous mode.
    I have requested a PAPR after an anonymous flight,
    and got a "your request failed to generate a report" response.
    Maybe I'll try it again next time I fly.
    FWIW I've also gotten that response when I requested a PAPR immediately landing--
    apparently it takes a few minutes for the info to trickle down into the system.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  6. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chicken Hawk View Post
    My ADS-B wiring diagram for my experimental cub.
    Please let me know if I forgot anything!
    Merry Christmas friends!
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is the best work I’ve seen in ages!
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  7. #167
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Another issue!
    This has just come to my attention: https://generalaviationnews.com/2019...=TPOA-20191226

    Those who were gung ho by installing their ADS-B system at the beginning, may find that now the date is here they no longer are in compliance. Why does this appear to me that this whole ADS-B requirement is nothing more than the avionics manufacturers petitioning the FAA to mandate an increase in their businesses?
    N1PA
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  8. #168
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Another issue!
    This has just come to my attention: https://generalaviationnews.com/2019...=TPOA-20191226

    Those who were gung ho by installing their ADS-B system at the beginning, may find that now the date is here they no longer are in compliance. Why does this appear to me that this whole ADS-B requirement is nothing more than the avionics manufacturers petitioning the FAA to mandate an increase in their businesses?
    yep, and I noted earlier, whether you have an older unit or brand new, you should request a report occasionally to verify it’s in compliance.

    MTV
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  9. #169
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    For those that haven't seen a performance report.
    Regarding this, does anyone have a letter of failure or non-compliance they are willing to share?


    Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers...
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  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    ….I have requested a PAPR after an anonymous flight,
    and got a "your request failed to generate a report" response.
    Maybe I'll try it again next time I fly......
    I flew yesterday, in anonymous mode,
    after which I requested a PAPR.
    To my surprise, I did get a report.
    So it is anonymous to everyone BUT the government, after all.
    I guess the "scrambled signal" isn't quite as scrambled as I thought.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  11. #171
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    Regarding this, does anyone have a letter of failure or non-compliance they are willing to share?


    Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers...
    Hello Mr. Vivion,

    I’m contacting you to let you know your aircraft’s ads-B system is still consistently malfunctioning. I attached an ADS-B performance report for your review.

    I’m told I have to put N7297 on the ATC filter temporarily until the issue is corrected. I attached a copy of the FAA Notice that explains the ATC Filter. Please feel free to contact me with any questions.

    Regards,

    Jeff

    Jeffrey W. Denny
    Aviation Safety Inspector
    Technical Aircraft Maintenance Branch, FS-370 Avionics
    ADS-B Focus Team
    Phone: 703-309-9004

    ADS-B Information

    Request ADS-B Performance Report

    Public ADS-B Performance Report (PAPR) User's Guide

    This message also included PAPR reports indicating errors. It’s important to understand that I’d received other messages from Mr. Denny, which resulted in my uploading updated firmware. No notice of this new firmware was provided by uAvionix. It’s more than a little disappointing to learn of equipment updates from the FAA rather than the manufacturer of the equipment.

    After uploading the update, I did another flight, and Mr. Denny verified that my SkBeacon was in compliance. A few months later, I received this message from the FAA. I can’t argue at all that the FAA hasn’t given me time to fix the problem.

    For two weeks plus after I received this message, uAvionix left me hanging, after saying “they’d get back to me”. They didn’t till I started posting these notes on web forums.

    Now, effective Dec 24, they’ve said they’ll replace the unit. We’ll see. Fortunately, I don’t live inside rule airspace, or as of next week I’d be grounded. Understand that I have to fix this thing THEN conduct a flight to verify, THEN request the FAA to accept my equipment again.

    How does that fit in with the “Twenty minute installation”? BS put out by uAvionix?

    frankly, at this point I would NOT recommend purchasing ANYthing from this company. I realize others have had positive experience with this equipment. Good for them. But, again, you’d best be requesting a PAPR report regularly, lest you get a similar ugly surprise.....and equally poor support.

    MTV
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  12. #172

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    And that is why I am waiting on the Decathlon until February. Plenty of Cubs to fly until then, and I can do a leisurely extensive annual. The electric fuel pump failed this month, so it gets fixed too. I probably won't fly upside down until March.
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  13. #173
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Informative. https://www.avweb.com/multimedia/so-...ds-b-now-what/


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  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    I flew yesterday, in anonymous mode,
    after which I requested a PAPR.
    To my surprise, I did get a report.
    So it is anonymous to everyone BUT the government, after all.
    I guess the "scrambled signal" isn't quite as scrambled as I thought.
    So perhaps this helps answer a question I’ve had about operating in anonymous mode and SAR being able to “find” a missing plane. It would seem that the answer would be yes; that SAR folks could input your N number and find the latest track even if you’re not squawking your N number.

    Last summer the AOPA regional fly-in was in Missoula, as close as it gets to where I live, so I flew in. One of the booths was manned by I guy I recognized. It took a bit but we realized he’d been a Beaver pilot on a charter my wife and I took in the early 2000s out of Juneau. The plane was equipped with the Capstone avionics of the day. I sat in the right seat and he explained it all to me as we flew out to the fishing lodge. Today he works for the FAA and is an ADSB expert. Just before the fly-in in Missoula there had been a mid air in Alaska and he’d been charged with going over the flight tracks of the two planes. It was interesting to me to hear some of how that works in today’s system.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp
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  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    I flew yesterday, in anonymous mode,
    after which I requested a PAPR.
    To my surprise, I did get a report.
    So it is anonymous to everyone BUT the government, after all.
    I guess the "scrambled signal" isn't quite as scrambled as I thought.
    hotrod180, is it possible that you weren't in anonymous mode for the entire flight? If you'll humor a few more of my questions so I can get a better understanding anonymous mode:

    Looking at your PAPR report:
    On page 2, does the Tail Number and Broadcast ICAO match what should be in those fields for your plane? What does "Out Capability" say?
    On page 4 under Missing Elements, are there any failures for Flight ID, or under Other Checks any errors with Mode 3A?

    I'm going to try to collect some data from my GDL82 while sitting inside the hangar tonight. Might shed some more light on all of this.

  16. #176

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    Fly OUT in off mode?

    I am thinking of installing OUT and IN soon. Can't I just fly with OUT off and the FAA wouldn't know I was even in the air, as I wouldn't be in any airspace that it was required, and I wouldn't be any different from a plane that didn't have OUT installed at all?

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kid View Post
    I am thinking of installing OUT and IN soon. Can't I just fly with OUT off and the FAA wouldn't know I was even in the air, as I wouldn't be in any airspace that it was required, and I wouldn't be any different from a plane that didn't have OUT installed at all?

    Good question Kid. Who’s to know?

    BTW the anonymous mode is not an option with the 1090 transponders.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp

  18. #178
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Correct. No anonymous mode on my GTX 335. It uses 1090ES. Only thing I can change is the flight ID.

    Quote Originally Posted by spinner2 View Post

    BTW the anonymous mode is not an option with the 1090 transponders.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"
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  19. #179
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    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  20. #180
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    I don't recall if this has been discussed here. https://www.fly.faa.gov/ASDI/asdi.html It is simple to request the blocking. It takes at the most a couple weeks for it to be implemented. Your aircraft then does not show up on FlightAware etc. I requested blocking at the source level. It works. I've been blocked for about a year now. People can still receive your out directly if they have the equipment to do that but at least they don't get it from the tracking services.
    Gerald
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  21. #181
    gdafoe's Avatar
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    This is what you see if you search for my aircraft on Flightaware. N810GL - DAFOE GERALD W (MORRISTOWN AZ)

    This aircraft (N810GL) is not available for public tracking per request from the owner/operator.

    That's my airplane! How do I track my airplane on FlightAware?
    FlightAware can provide aircraft owner/operators with secure access to their own flight data. Contact FlightAware for help.
    Gerald

  22. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdafoe View Post
    This is what you see if you search for my aircraft on Flightaware. N810GL - DAFOE GERALD W (MORRISTOWN AZ)

    This aircraft (N810GL) is not available for public tracking per request from the owner/operator.

    That's my airplane! How do I track my airplane on FlightAware?
    FlightAware can provide aircraft owner/operators with secure access to their own flight data. Contact FlightAware for help.
    Gerald do you have a 1090 transponder? Reading the article that Eddie posted seems to imply that tracking can be blocked only for 1090 transponders and that the UAT types can rely only on anonymous mode.

    I have two transponders, one of each. On the 1090 I already had it blocked and I see the same message you posted above. On my UAT I get a different message that says it can’t find and data.

    Anonymous mode is only an option when squawking 1200 so it would seem to follow that it you’re flying with an ATC assigned code you’re no longer unavailable to flight trackers. And with a 1090 I think you would be unavailable when squawking an ATC code.

    Anyone know for sure if what I wrote is true?
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp
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  23. #183
    gdafoe's Avatar
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    Yes I have a 1090 transponder. GTX 335. This blocking ability predates ADS B by several years, but applies to ADS B as well. I thought it applied to UAT as well. If you block at the "source" level then the FAA does not even send your data to them.
    Gerald

  24. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by gdafoe View Post
    I don't recall if this has been discussed here. https://www.fly.faa.gov/ASDI/asdi.html It is simple to request the blocking. It takes at the most a couple weeks for it to be implemented. Your aircraft then does not show up on FlightAware etc. I requested blocking at the source level. It works. I've been blocked for about a year now. People can still receive your out directly if they have the equipment to do that but at least they don't get it from the tracking services.
    The FAA blocking request only blocks info sharing. That only works with tracking sites that honor the FAA data block. Other sites use and share their own tracking info and don't honor your blocking request. Anonymous mode with a UAT device hides the N number from those sites. I don't believe there's anything you can do to cloak an ES device. Or so I've been told. I was talking to a guy about my data block being effective. He pulled up a website and showed me my last track. That's my big complaint about the FAA requirement to have it on at all times when they can't protect my privacy.
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  25. #185
    courierguy's Avatar
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    I thought of this entire ADS-B thing the other day after having a very near flyby with 6 large Canadian geese. Not pertinent I know, but my first thought afterwards was "no ADS-B." O f course, I don't have it either, not pertinent, like I said.
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  26. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinner2 View Post
    ….I have two transponders, one of each. On the 1090 I already had it blocked and I see the same message you posted above. On my UAT I get a different message that says it can’t find and data. ….
    Dunno about the other tracking sites / apps,
    but I believe that the Flight Radar 24 app is unable to track 978UAT.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  27. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by fancypants View Post
    hotrod180, is it possible that you weren't in anonymous mode for the entire flight? If you'll humor a few more of my questions so I can get a better understanding anonymous mode:
    Looking at your PAPR report:
    On page 2, does the Tail Number and Broadcast ICAO match what should be in those fields for your plane? What does "Out Capability" say?
    On page 4 under Missing Elements, are there any failures for Flight ID, or under Other Checks any errors with Mode 3A? …..
    Page 2-- tail number & ICAO number correct, out capability sez "UAT".
    Page 4-- missing elements: flight ID sez 0.12% fail, Max dT00:00:01, MCF 1.
    other checks: mode 3A sez 0.00% fail, Max dT 00:00:00, MCF 0.

    It's all greek to me, my take-away was that it ID'd me, and there were no red flags (fails)
    which would result in one of MTV's dirty letters from FAA.
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  28. #188

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    A little wary

    What I am understanding is that, with OUT installed, it must be ON whenever I fly, period. OK, but am I then subject to FAA scrutiny for every flight with emails and phone calls coming, that I didn't have before I installed OUT (I haven't installed it yet), if for some reason they didn't get my signal (I dropped to 500' agl) or I was at the wrong altitude for a short period of time because of down-drafts or whatever? Other words I am a little wary of this "watching me".
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  29. #189
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    Thanks, hotrod180. It looks like a good report from a UAT that wasn't running in anonymous mode. I think there may have been bugs in earlier uAvionix firmware revisions that could prevent anonymous mode from working consistently. Might want to double check that you are on the latest version.

    I'm still a bit skeptical that FAA has the ability to unmask anonymous UAT transmissions. I may write up a technical explanation of why I'm skeptical after I do some more research. Thanks again for putting up with my questions.

  30. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kid View Post
    What I am understanding is that, with OUT installed, it must be ON whenever I fly, period. OK, but am I then subject to FAA scrutiny for every flight with emails and phone calls coming, that I didn't have before I installed OUT (I haven't installed it yet), if for some reason they didn't get my signal (I dropped to 500' agl) or I was at the wrong altitude for a short period of time because of down-drafts or whatever? Other words I am a little wary of this "watching me".
    The Kid,

    I think many of us (at least 38.2% of us, anyway) are wary of the many unknowns yet to be discovered in this new ADS-B environment. I haven't read anything about using it for enforcement actions, but it doesn't take much of an imagination to see where we could end up.
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  31. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by fancypants View Post
    I'm still a bit skeptical that FAA has the ability to unmask anonymous UAT transmissions. I may write up a technical explanation of why I'm skeptical after I do some more research. Thanks again for putting up with my questions.
    You are NOT anonymous to the FAA. Just others.
    Gerald

  32. #192
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    Hi Gerald,

    I've seen that repeated here, and I'm trying to figure out how it may be possible. A review of the technical literature suggests that your permanent ICAO code should not be easily recoverable from the temporary ICAO code generated and transmitted by a UAT device in anonymous mode.

    I'm still learning about all of this, and will probably just keep my mouth shut until I know more.

  33. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kid View Post
    What I am understanding is that, with OUT installed, it must be ON whenever I fly, period. OK, but am I then subject to FAA scrutiny for every flight with emails and phone calls coming, that I didn't have before I installed OUT (I haven't installed it yet), if for some reason they didn't get my signal (I dropped to 500' agl) or I was at the wrong altitude for a short period of time because of down-drafts or whatever? Other words I am a little wary of this "watching me".
    Kid, in our part of the world there are ADSB towers at GPI, MSO, and Polson. I pick up the Polson tower at 5500’ over rainbow lake. To the west there’s Spokane and near Lewiston, ID. So unless you’re pretty high, above the ridges, or the Flathead and Missoula valleys no tower is seeing you.

    But I have seen ship to ship In targets in the Clarkfork valley. It is always a surprise when they pop up unless they’ve made a radio position report first. I’ve seen ship to ship in the Idaho backcountry too.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp

  34. #194
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kid View Post
    What I am understanding is that, with OUT installed, it must be ON whenever I fly, period. OK, but am I then subject to FAA scrutiny for every flight with emails and phone calls coming, that I didn't have before I installed OUT (I haven't installed it yet), if for some reason they didn't get my signal (I dropped to 500' agl) or I was at the wrong altitude for a short period of time because of down-drafts or whatever? Other words I am a little wary of this "watching me".
    As long as your "Out" transmitter works flawlessly you won't receive any communications from the FAA's ADS-B team.

    Dropping out of coverage does NOT transmit an error message. As I noted in one of my earlier posts, the FAA sent me a map of one of my flights where I had dipped down into a canyon (intentionally to see what would happen) and the map was overlain with color, which indicated ADS-B projected coverage. Worst case scenario, the FAA would look at that and realize that you were out of coverage.....which does not constitute an "error".

    The problem I'm having is repeated NIC errors. In simple terms, an NIC error implies that the GPS connected to my ADS-B transmitter is either not sending a position, or the position is in error. In my case, the GPS is built into the SkyBeacon unit, so there's no way to fix it, apparently.

    Also, remember that a GPS receiver requires a little while to develop an accurate signal. This may be as much as five minutes or more. If you launch prior to the GPS having acquired a precise signal, your transmitter will send a NIC error message. If you download a PAPR report after the flight, you'll see that NIC error block highlighted in red.

    BUt, at least theoretically, your aircraft leaving or re-entering the ADS-B coverage area SHOULDN'T generate an error.

    As to whether the FAA will ever use ADS-B data for enforcement purposes, you can bet your bottom dollar that if you were to violate a TFR or other restricted airspace and the FAA came at you, that they'd have a PAPR report on your flight in hand. Every ADS-B system includes a WAAS enabled GPS, so your location will be precisely noted. I presume the same would apply to accusations of flights close to people/structures, etc, since these things also transmit altitude-both GPS and encoder. Other kinds of possible violations? Who knows?

    But, there WILL be a record of your flights.

    MTV
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  35. #195
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvivion View Post
    .

    As to whether the FAA will ever use ADS-B data for enforcement purposes, you can bet your bottom dollar that if you were to violate a TFR or other restricted airspace and the FAA came at you, that they'd have a PAPR report on your flight in hand. Every ADS-B system includes a WAAS enabled GPS, so your location will be precisely noted. I presume the same would apply to accusations of flights close to people/structures, etc, since these things also transmit altitude-both GPS and encoder. Other kinds of possible violations? Who knows?

    But, there WILL be a record of your flights.

    MTV
    So if you want to get someone in trouble, just broadcast their data..... on your flight... I can see all sorts of uses for abuse of this...... think guides, fish spotters... I bet the park service will be monitoring it too....


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  36. #196
    SJ's Avatar
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    Gerald, you might check here next time you fly.

    https://opensky-network.org/aircraft...?icao24=ab09fd

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    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  37. #197

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    So if you want to get someone in trouble, just broadcast their data..... on your flight... I can see all sorts of uses for abuse of this...... think guides, fish spotters... I bet the park service will be monitoring it too....


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    I was thinking that, as long as you aren’t 1090es, where your ICAO is programmed into the transponder, what would stop someone from programming their skyBeacon or other adsb system to some other N# and ICAO code. Lots of registered airplanes that never move that one could “borrow” the ID from


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  38. #198

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    ADS-B is not required in Alaska outside of class C. I don't expect much participation, especially in the hunting and fishing guide category.
    Last edited by stewartb; 12-29-2019 at 08:16 PM.
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  39. #199

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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    Gerald, you might check here next time you fly.

    https://opensky-network.org/aircraft...?icao24=ab09fd

    Sent from my Pixel using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    Bingo. There’s your (blocked) history for all to see. I’m not willing to let the FAA tell me my location is everybody’s business and to date I don’t believe they’re doing a damn thing to fix it.

  40. #200
    gdafoe's Avatar
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    Hmm, This data comes from lots of sources looks like. I presume it is also live not just historical.Sources

    This database is built and maintained from the following sources:
    • Official aircraft registries
    • Various Basestation.sqb files
    • Crowdsourced and manually collected data from various people (e.g. Oxford data analyst Martin Strohmeier)
    • openflights.org
    • ICAO Doc 8643

    We accept additional aircraft data in any format (CSV, BaseStation.sqb, ...)! Just contact contact@opensky-network.org for further instructions
    Gerald

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