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Thread: Tradition Ferry Permit issuance method GONE

  1. #41
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    Issuing the permit may not be actual maintenance, but if the FSDO rep has to physically inspect the aircraft, he is then performing a maintenance function. Part 43 calls out the systems to be examined in order for an A&P and/or IA to determine the airworthiness of an aircraft. Nothing in Part 21 calls out criteria for determining airworthiness of an existing type certificated aircraft.

    Web
    I'm quite confused by this thread....

    so you have to hire $ and transport $$ an INSPECTOR(DAR) who CAN"T reattach the wing(s), and straiten out the fuselage enough to ferry it, (and probably is has no experience, or willingness to do/with this)

    to BLESS it, safe for flight??

    not just me (A&P)???

    so WHY??, then would you REQUEST a ferry permit???...

    it used to be just a accident/incident tracking FAA paperwork exercise......

    never had one time they wanted to come see it, or the pictures I offered to take for them....

    ( really need to dig out the box of pictures from the ferry flights I have readied and post them..)

  2. #42
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Most of mine have been to deliver an aircraft to my airport when the annual inspection is past due. An owner got another shop to issue one a few weeks ago. Will have to ask the mechanic who got it how big of a hassle it was. Airplane only had 12 hours on it since last inspection so wasn't a big airworthiness concern.
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  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    Issuing the permit may not be actual maintenance, but if the FSDO rep has to physically inspect the aircraft, he is then performing a maintenance function. Part 43 calls out the systems to be examined in order for an A&P and/or IA to determine the airworthiness of an aircraft. Nothing in Part 21 calls out criteria for determining airworthiness of an existing type certificated aircraft.

    Web
    Web,
    That’s kind of the point of the ferry permit, it doesn’t have to meet the TC and by definition is not airworthy. The only requirement is a judgement call that the aircraft is “safe” for the intended flight, and only that flight. For as long as I can remember, and for literally hundreds of ferry permits I got before I was aDAR, the FAA inspector never came to look at the airplane unless it was an accident with severe injury or fatality. Just Op Limits that said most expeditious route considering fuel and weather and a sign off from an A&P saying it was safe for flight. Unlike most of the comments above, I don’t think I’ve ever requested a ferry permit for an airplane out of annual, all mine were accident damage. The reason I got the DAR was because I was asking for so many, once I had the DAR, I could issue them myself. It wasn’t until years later that I added all the other functions.


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  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    I'm quite confused by this thread....

    so you have to hire $ and transport $$ an INSPECTOR(DAR) who CAN"T reattach the wing(s), and straiten out the fuselage enough to ferry it, (and probably is has no experience, or willingness to do/with this)

    to BLESS it, safe for flight??

    not just me (A&P)???

    so WHY??, then would you REQUEST a ferry permit???...

    it used to be just a accident/incident tracking FAA paperwork exercise......

    never had one time they wanted to come see it, or the pictures I offered to take for them....

    ( really need to dig out the box of pictures from the ferry flights I have readied and post them..)
    Most DARs got there after having done lots of ferry permits as an A&P. I’ve patched up more airplane that had pilots forget to put the wheels down, or hit a deer on landing, or got blown over in a wind storm and on and on. I’ll agree that most times an inspector never looked at the airplane. The conflict of interest limitation can seem a little stupid. I can do annuals on my own airplanes, but I can’t do engineering approvals or field approvals on my own airplanes.


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  5. #45
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    What a load of BS!!! I agree with Skywagon...we've had it taken away from us!! Basically what it's going to do is make outlaws out of 90% of us when it comes to this stuff. I'm damned sure not gonna hire a DAR to tell me (and charge me!!!!) that we can ferry an airplane. I'll take my chances and they can kiss it. This has gone way too far!!
    John

  6. #46
    S2D's Avatar
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    Far as I'm concerned, ferry permits have been a thing of the past for a couple years now. Used to be their job was to get a permit to so you could do it legally. Now they have to micromanage everything. Less stress just annualling it or fixing it where it is than dealing with the FAA. I realize those of you in Alaska have different issues and it really sucks for you.

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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by S2D View Post
    I realize those of you in Alaska have different issues and it really sucks for you.

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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardtailjohn View Post
    What a load of BS!!! I agree with Skywagon...we've had it taken away from us!! Basically what it's going to do is make outlaws out of 90% of us when it comes to this stuff. I'm damned sure not gonna hire a DAR to tell me (and charge me!!!!) that we can ferry an airplane. I'll take my chances and they can kiss it. This has gone way too far!!
    John
    Thank you John, My sentiments exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by S2D View Post
    Far as I'm concerned, ferry permits have been a thing of the past for a couple years now. Used to be their job was to get a permit to so you could do it legally. Now they have to micromanage everything. Less stress just annualling it or fixing it where it is than dealing with the FAA. I realize those of you in Alaska have different issues and it really sucks for you.
    It appears that in their efforts to micromanage everything under guidance from their legal department, the FAA has really stepped on their Richards this time. They are forcing us out in the field underground. While the FAA is holding their crying towel hiding in a closet, we in the field will keep the aviation fleet in the air.
    N1PA
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  9. #49
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I was about to type the same thing John. "Making outlaws out of all of us." They wonder why it is an us vs. them.
    Steve Pierce

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    One can easily fly an aircraft without a license or ferry permit without getting "caught." But here in the lower 48, your insurance does not cover you.

    I tell my students - "You pay thousands of dollars to an insurer - don't make the mistake of operating outside your insured limits." Who cares about an FAA enforcement action in comparison.

    Recently an owner lent his Stearman to a buddy - a qualified taildragger with no Stearman experience. I talked to the FAA on a different matter that week - he said the poor guy was not at all worried about the 709 ride - he was worried about where he was going to get fifty grand to fix the thing!

    Alaska is different - who can even afford insurance there?

  11. #51

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    Anch FSDO says they're still doing ferry permits. They directed me to the FAA website, which coincidentally still has the procedure posted. The Anch lady says internet chat room information is unreliable.

    https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rry_permit.pdf

  12. #52
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Thanks for checking with Anch FSDO stewart, Post #1 is a direct copy of an Email from my local FSDO. And word was relayed to me from a fellow SC.orger in an adjacent FSDO that his FAA has also changed the practice. As I've mentioned elsewhere you have the best FAA region in the country. I'm suspecting that this issue is something the lower 48 FAA has come up with on their own as a way to cut down on their "personal workload".
    N1PA
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Anch FSDO says they're still doing ferry permits. They directed me to the FAA website, which coincidentally still has the procedure posted. The Anch lady says internet chat room information is unreliable.

    https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rry_permit.pdf
    Letters from the FAA shouldn't be unreliable though.
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  14. #54

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    Don't shoot the messenger, I just made a call to ask.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Don't shoot the messenger, I just made a call to ask.
    As a lot of us know, part of the problem is inconsistencies between FSDOs. For her to say internet chat room information is unreliable is kind of a slap in the face. Looks like everything here is accurate by mechanics that have held the certificate 60 plus years and a DAR. Hard to argue with them and the letters and memorandums posted. Glad Anchorage is still doing them, Lubbock is as well but a major PITA.
    Steve Pierce

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  16. #56
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Anch FSDO says they're still doing ferry permits. They directed me to the FAA website, which coincidentally still has the procedure posted....

    https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rry_permit.pdf
    Thanks!

    hmmm things have changed... just ask for a permit, never even seen the wrecks when requesting the permit, but hopefully they would send in a roll of film with the damage, so i could bring the proper parts and tools...

    never had to do a 8130-6....
    I like them #4.
    4.) The ways, if any, in which the aircraft does not comply with the applicable airworthiness requirements.

    let's see.... on the one PA-14, fuselage bent in half in front of tail( i have a neat method for cutting next to a tube bend part way though tube, then welding a half sleeve on outer part of tube where its easier to weld, DON'T attempt to unbend a bend kink...), elevator and stabilizer toast on one side, jack screw bent.... all 4 wing spars bent upwards... one tire/wheel had came apart in tundra and caused the wreck (snap ring popped) don't remember if it got prop.. between the owner and I took about a day to get it launched, I only slept one night in that plane... i got to spend the next night alone in a toy fred meyer tent he had after he left....

    i really need to dig through my picture box.... always said it was my paid vacation camping trips...

  17. #57

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    I think the key here is in the post of the FAA message above where it says "we are now requesting that all ferry permits go though a DAR" that a good bit short of were not issuing go find a DAR...
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  18. #58
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    Fairbanks, Ak. FSDO has advised as of today "we still issue them". As usual they are good to deal with.

    Gary

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    I think the key here is in the post of the FAA message above where it says "we are now requesting that all ferry permits go though a DAR" that a good bit short of were not issuing go find a DAR...
    After 8 months dicking around with field approvals that's what they told me. These were previously approved FA's. That is there polite way of denying you, with out denying you. Apparently if they deny you a field approval on something that has been previously approved, you can go to the originally issued faa person, and you do not have to stay in your FSDO, But they wouldn't give me a written letter of denial, just told me they are "way too busy".

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    After 8 months dicking around with field approvals that's what they told me. These were previously approved FA's. That is there polite way of denying you, with out denying you. Apparently if they deny you a field approval on something that has been previously approved, you can go to the originally issued faa person, and you do not have to stay in your FSDO, But they wouldn't give me a written letter of denial, just told me they are "way too busy".
    If that’s what they are doing then I would suggest documenting the situation to Senator Inhofe’s office attention to his aviation staf..
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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    They are required to give you a reason in writing. I could look it up, but it is on the very first page of one of those Technical Orders.
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  22. #62
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    Dga. How much would it cost to type out a ferry permit and fax it to me? That's all the faa used to have to do. Maybe that's all you'll be required to do. Funny they haven't brought DARs up to date if they are turning it over to you?

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  23. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I received this message from my FSDO PMI earlier this week:

    "I wanted to give you a heads up to some changes happening at the FSDO. In the very near future, ALL SFP’s and air worthiness certificate replacements will be issued by the 2 DAR-T’s in our area. ********** in Plymouth and ************ in New Bedford." ....
    Quote Originally Posted by S2D View Post
    Dga. How much would it cost to type out a ferry permit and fax it to me? That's all the faa used to have to do. Maybe that's all you'll be required to do. Funny they haven't brought DARs up to date if they are turning it over to you?
    S2D, Reread the first sentence in the Email from my PMI. He saysALL SFP’s and air worthiness certificate replacements will be issued.
    N1PA

  24. #64
    S2D's Avatar
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    I did. What's your point??

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    It's kind of like the situations reported in the "Ramp Check Season" thread....there are a *bunch* of *different* FAAs in the country. Some more reasonable than others. I've heard it said the largest obstacle to aviation west of the Mississippi river is the Fort Worth FSDO....
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  26. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by S2D View Post
    I did. What's your point??
    My bad, there was a second Email which I neglected to post, sorry. It reads as follows:

    "Good day everyone,
    Just to be clear, there are 2 things I need to mention to you:
    1) When you contact a DAR-T to have them issue an SFP, they are required to physically inspect the aircraft, so that will incur a cost to the owner. As I mentioned in the first email, I have no control, or authority over what they charge for their services.
    2) These changes will not take effect under the middle of next month, and that’s just an estimate.
    Sincerely,
    *************
    Principal Maintenance Inspector
    Flight Standards Service, General Aviation Division A
    AFG-100, Boston FSDO-61"
    N1PA
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  27. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    After 8 months dicking around with field approvals that's what they told me. These were previously approved FA's. That is there polite way of denying you, with out denying you. …...But they wouldn't give me a written letter of denial, just told me they are "way too busy".
    This is a pretty common tactic with bureaucrats in my experience.
    I've got a FA 337 in at the Seattle FSDO for about 7 months now.
    I had to laugh, a manager from the public agency which runs my airport was complaining about the FAA
    not saying yes or no, just avoiding answering a request they had in.
    I felt like telling him "yeah, that's just what you guys do-- how do you like it?" but figured that might not a good idea.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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    Quote Originally Posted by S2D View Post
    Dga. How much would it cost to type out a ferry permit and fax it to me? That's all the faa used to have to do. Maybe that's all you'll be required to do. Funny they haven't brought DARs up to date if they are turning it over to you?

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    I’d love to be able to do “fax” ferry permits, but unlike the FAA inspectors, I have to abide by the guidance in 8130-2 and other “Orders”. Within the Orders it specifically prevents DARs from doing fax ferry permits. To do so would be cause to revoke (or not renew) my designation.


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    Yea, I went thru the regs. Nothing in there on how they are issued so my original statement stands. They are a thing of the past. Easier to just annual it where it's at..

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  30. #70
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S2D View Post
    ..Easier to just annual it where it's at..

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    but what if fuselage is in one pile, and wings are in another? and you are just putting it back together enough to get it home??

    that's what a ferry permit is for in my world.... not just for out of annual "technical" reasons...

  31. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post

    that's what a ferry permit is for in my world.... not just for out of annual "technical" reasons...
    Yea. Different worlds. Maybe you won't lose it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    but what if fuselage is in one pile, and wings are in another? and you are just putting it back together enough to get it home??

    that's what a ferry permit is for in my world.... not just for out of annual "technical" reasons...
    Take a Go Pro. Experimental exhibition.
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  33. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    but what if fuselage is in one pile, and wings are in another? and you are just putting it back together enough to get it home??

    that's what a ferry permit is for in my world.... not just for out of annual "technical" reasons...
    Put it together as usual and fly it home. I guess that's where the "outlaw" will have to come into play. Maybe on a weekend or holiday so there aren't any prying eyes to see. I've seen stuff get by annuals that I really wouldn't feel to fuzzy about issuing a SFP for!
    John

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    I would suggest getting in touch with all the alphabet groups and make your voices known. They all have folks with direct contacts at FAA headquarters and can lobby on our behalf. Since this is policy, and bad policy at that, making some noise may have an impact. This is only one bad policy in recent times. I’m currently working with AOPA on the Scrapped and Destroyed policy, another bad policy move from FAA.


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  35. #75
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    Exactly, bad policy!! Has absolutely NOTHING to contribute to safety, and in fact will most likely negatively affect safety.
    John
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  36. #76
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    Yah, when the rules are too stringent, they tend to be circumvented or rebelled against. Same with your horses, eh John?
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    "When ferry permits are outlawed, only outlaws will have ferry permits"

  38. #78
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    An informative article discussing DERs, DARs and the methods involved in getting repairs and alterations approved from the September 2019 issue of Aviation Maintenance magazine.
    https://www.avm-mag.com/wp-content/m.../page44-page45
    N1PA
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  39. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    An informative article discussing DERs, DARs and the methods involved in getting repairs and alterations approved from the September 2019 issue of Aviation Maintenance magazine.
    https://www.avm-mag.com/wp-content/m.../page44-page45
    Thanks for highlighting my article!


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  40. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    Thanks for highlighting my article!
    You are welcome. Now we know who you are since you are no longer incognito!

    Good article, well done with all of the references to become self informed.
    N1PA
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