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Thread: Low Compression, Worn Exhaust Valve Guide, Decisions, Decisions

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    IMHO buying used cylinders isn't a good option--
    that used cylinder might have ten zillion hours on it.
    Esp if your cylinders are known time since new or factory reman.
    im running 3 used cylinders, i trust my cylinder shop guy, so far so good, they could probably have 10 zillion hrs, dosent matter if its good, seen guys pull the throttle back on new cylinders to idle when its zero degrees out when landing after running the heck out of it, so how are those, so time wise dosent matter much to me. just sayin a used cylinder is a used cylinder and if everything is in spec and not cracked, im ok with that. if you know your cylinders, and are good with putting guides or seats in and trust your work over a good cylinder shop, its the way to go. i dont mess with guides or seats or have all the tools.
    Last edited by tempdoug; 08-18-2019 at 03:03 PM.

  2. #42

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    Low Compression, Worn Exhaust Valve Guide, Decisions, Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    So I have concidered lots of options. I thought of pulling #4 and replacing the guide. I figure if I do one I should do all four. If I am going to have all four cylinders off I want to put those 160 hp pistons in, new rings, hone. Why not go ahead and install new exhaust valves, might as well overhaul them. Not much difference in price between new and overhauled. I have installed several LyCon engines with port and polished cylinders and know how smooth they run and appear to make more power as well. Can you see the snow ball getting larger? It could go on with a complete engine overhaul with balance and reindexing of the crank and why not DLC coat parts and crio them as well and o'ring the crankcase. Not in the budget, my banker retired and I don't want to meet the new, young loan agents nor pay them interest so I am not going there. Hopefully in 1000 hours I don't have a kid in college and another in high school eating me out of house and home and I know the house and hanger will be paid for. I think a set of new Lycoming cylinders from LyCon with their port and polish is the route I am going to take. I could keep flying it cheaper but I don't get paid to work on my own airplane and when I am not working on other's airplanes I would rather be flying mine. Besides, I want what I want so what the hell.
    I agree. Besides, your dyin to slap those new pistons in.


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  3. #43
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    So my new LyCon flow matched cylinders arrived and Friday night and Saturday I spent removing the old and installing the new. A stuck piston pin cap took some extra time so I did not get finished with the install, lack installing induction hoses, drain back lines and baffles. Forgot to order new rocker shafts, button, intake hoses and drain back lines. Lycoming cylinders do come with new piston pins and caps.
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    The 100 degree heat got to me last night and I gave up and called Ken at LyCon with some questions. After emailing him these pictures we have decided the cylinders have been running hot which cause the heat in the valves which cooks the oil off the valves, wears the guides and causes exhaust gasses to escape up the guides creating more problems. The black b rocker arms and springs in the photo album link are evidence. So now I am deciding on a way to read my cylinder head and exhast gas temps. I have been known to leave my mixture out when hitting different gravel bars which I vow to pay more attention to but want to make sure I have proper carburetion and airflow through the engine. One thing leads to another so now I have been looking at engine monitors. I have installed a lot of Electronics International's CGR30P and that would be my preference but is not in my budget. I am looking at the SR-8A which is the most cost effective gauge I have found but if EI has another rebate the UBG16 will be about the same price for a better display of information. I always say these things are snow balls so thought I would follow up with one of my own.

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/hvomWHaua3NQjUHB7
    Steve Pierce

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  4. #44
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    You couldnít pay me anything to take the cgr out of my cub. Donít they give you a nice discount??


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  5. #45
    supercrow's Avatar
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    Me too. Love mine!

  6. #46

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    I would love to give you some Tylenol for the MOREBETTERFEVER. But this is one case that I will add a blanket on top. AT minimum a 4 cylinder Egt/Cht should go on every motor especially with new top ends. It will pay for itself in reduced engine damage and maintenance cost because you can pick out a bad cylinder in just 15 sec. Now if you really want to save money /fly safer add a fuel flow!! This will allow you to quickly manage leaning and knowing exact fuel remaining. A low level pilot does not need to have his head down looking gauges all the time. Once you know the proper fuel flow for given conditions it is a quick set and occasional scan.

    Some Pilots/A&P"s/IA"s say they don't like all the engine cht/egt info and it is throwing money down the drain. My feeling is they simply don't know what they don't know and do not want to learn it. Having seen all your work on trying to fix oil/cht temps I know you understand the importance of good information.

    The real easy quick money fix is just get the big one and raise you hourly rate! If I ever stop in for a visit I will be happy to pay it!!
    Check you're PM.
    DENNY
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  7. #47
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    Low Compression, Worn Exhaust Valve Guide, Decisions, Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    I would love to give you some Tylenol for the MOREBETTERFEVER. But this is one case that I will add a blanket on top. AT minimum a 4 cylinder Egt/Cht should go on every motor especially with new top ends. It will pay for itself in reduced engine damage and maintenance cost because you can pick out a bad cylinder in just 15 sec. Now if you really want to save money /fly safer add a fuel flow!! This will allow you to quickly manage leaning and knowing exact fuel remaining. A low level pilot does not need to have his head down looking gauges all the time. Once you know the proper fuel flow for given conditions it is a quick set and occasional scan.

    Some Pilots/A&P"s/IA"s say they don't like all the engine cht/egt info and it is throwing money down the drain. My feeling is they simply don't know what they don't know and do not want to learn it. Having seen all your work on trying to fix oil/cht temps I know you understand the importance of good information.

    The real easy quick money fix is just get the big one and raise you hourly rate! If I ever stop in for a visit I will be happy to pay it!!
    Check you're PM.
    DENNY
    When I put the cgr in my cub it flew almost 10mph slower. Turns out the old tach was reading a little over 100rpm low. Then I ended up messing with all the baffling, it was leaking everywhere causing high Chtís. And after that I ended up putting the Sutton exhaust on, it was the only thing to get the oil temps down. Pain in the neck, but how much life did all that add to the engine? Probably a bunch. Now all the chtís are within 10-20 deg, oil temp is nice and cool and I know how much fuel is in it within 1/10 of a gallon. Itís amazing how a little bit of throttle or mixture causes a big decrease in fuel flow at cruise. Something you wouldnít know flying fat dumb and happy before.


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  8. #48
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    Steve, you don't want to hear this but you're really going to want to have "at a glance" info on those expensive new cylinders. Especially with the bar-hopping and other "look outside" activities you like to do. I have a switchable single CHT/EGT display, so I can get all the data on my cylinders but it's a pain and takes a very real amount of time focused inside to look at them all.

    If you're on a budget, I'd go with the UBG-16. I'll be doing something similar real soon.
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  9. #49
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamTom12 View Post
    ...If you're on a budget, I'd go with the UBG-16. I'll be doing something similar real soon.
    You can also get just the fuel flow module to go with the UBG-16 which reads out fuel flow only. It doesn't have the fuel used function, but with just the flow it makes it very easy to quickly lean close to what you are looking for. This is what I have in my Cub. I do miss the totalizator functions as they are very useful on trips, perhaps someday I'll upgrade?
    N1PA
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  10. #50
    Hyrdflyr
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  11. #51
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    Burned to white cylinder paint near exhaust is a start to look. Then followed by confirmation of cooked oil in the heads like residue on the valves and inside valve cover. I flew one of those EI CHT-EGT all cylinder display finger gauges during 1986 winter fur trapping in my partner's PA-18 and it informed.

    Gary

  12. #52
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I have the FP5L fuel flow already. Saw the befit in it in my Pacer and in a Super Cub that I fly at minimum fuel on short hops a lot it is great to have. I am going to check with EI and see when they might be doing another rebate on the UBG16. The CGR30P is a great instrument but I gotta work a lot more because I have spent way to many aviation units as of late.
    Steve Pierce

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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I have the FP5L fuel flow already. Saw the befit in it in my Pacer and in a Super Cub that I fly at minimum fuel on short hops a lot it is great to have. I am going to check with EI and see when they might be doing another rebate on the UBG16. The CGR30P is a great instrument but I gotta work a lot more because I have spent way to many aviation units as of late.
    You should ask if they'll give an additional rebate for an experimental install

  14. #54
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamTom12 View Post
    ….If you're on a budget, I'd go with the UBG-16. I'll be doing something similar real soon.
    Which instrument are you gonna go with, Cameron--
    that MGL Blaze unit that was discussed lately?
    I like the looks of that one myself.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod180 View Post
    Which instrument are you gonna go with, Cameron--
    that MGL Blaze unit that was discussed lately?
    I like the looks of that one myself.
    I was, except that I realized just the other day that it is a 4-channel deal. Means I can pick between seeing all 4 EGTs or all 4 CHTs, or just two of each. No bueno. And I feel pretty dumb not realizing that before I bought it.

    I peeled the sticker, but I might be able to return it. Otherwise I'll try to sell it and find something that's got all 8 channels I need.

  16. #56
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    If I was experimental I would look at the EDM350 from JPI. I am not a JPI fan due to my experience with customer service but that is a quite capable instrument for the money. Installed one in a Carbon Cub SS.

    I called Electronics International but they are not planning on another rebate until Sun &Fun. Sales is checking with management to see if they would give me the rebate that just ended the end of August but no return phone so far.
    Steve Pierce

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  17. #57

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    Steve, i went with a Lycon engine last build, Lots of power but lots of heat issues to sort out, only way to track cooling progress was with a reliable 4 cyl monitor
    I've had great luck with Jpi edm 700 w/fuel flow on last three planes and would not fly without one.
    Had a display crap out once, but they took care of it promptly.

  18. #58
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    EI hasn't called back but a friend who races on the salt flats offered me his SR-8A he had set up to read 8 EGTs. Will just have to buy 4 CHT probes. Will go that route for now, the bank account is tapped out between these cylinder, an old Toyota truck I bought for Lee since he just got his drivers license and two trees for my front yard where our big tree didn't come back last spring. Oh to think back to the days when I lived in the hanger and spent all my money on airplanes.
    Steve Pierce

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  19. #59

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    Once you have installed a multi probe monitor and your top is broke in, what’s your game plan on mixture settings? 125* rich of peak? Maybe 100*? If hoping sandbars, loping along at 2100rpm, 3-4k DA does it matter if you’re running near peak? What about longer x countries up higher? I’m wondering if I’ve been running too lean.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
    Once you have installed a multi probe monitor and your top is broke in, what’s your game plan on mixture settings? 125* rich of peak? Maybe 100*? If hoping sandbars, loping along at 2100rpm, 3-4k DA does it matter if you’re running near peak? What about longer x countries up higher? I’m wondering if I’ve been running too lean.
    Lycoming says that when running at 75% power or less that it is permissible to run at peak EGT. An inexpensive manifold pressure gauge or perhaps a manifold module for the SR-8A would be helpful in determining the power setting.
    N1PA
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  21. #61
    C-FIJK's Avatar
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    Hello Steve I was in the same position 2 years ago pulled the cylinders to go to 160 hp and then found a cam about to go , 1400 snew wide deck engine , I chose a complete overhaul only bad decision I made was went with overhauled cylinders , ended up 50 hrs later getting all new factory lycoming cylinders under warranty , my advice buy all new not much more .

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    So I have concidered lots of options. I thought of pulling #4 and replacing the guide. I figure if I do one I should do all four. If I am going to have all four cylinders off I want to put those 160 hp pistons in, new rings, hone. Why not go ahead and install new exhaust valves, might as well overhaul them. Not much difference in price between new and overhauled. I have installed several LyCon engines with port and polished cylinders and know how smooth they run and appear to make more power as well. Can you see the snow ball getting larger? It could go on with a complete engine overhaul with balance and reindexing of the crank and why not DLC coat parts and crio them as well and o'ring the crankcase. Not in the budget, my banker retired and I don't want to meet the new, young loan agents nor pay them interest so I am not going there. Hopefully in 1000 hours I don't have a kid in college and another in high school eating me out of house and home and I know the house and hanger will be paid for. I think a set of new Lycoming cylinders from LyCon with their port and polish is the route I am going to take. I could keep flying it cheaper but I don't get paid to work on my own airplane and when I am not working on other's airplanes I would rather be flying mine. Besides, I want what I want so what the hell.
    Gerry Marcil

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  22. #62
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-FIJK View Post
    ...I chose a complete overhaul only bad decision I made was went with overhauled cylinders , ended up 50 hrs later getting all new factory lycoming cylinders under warranty.
    This raises questions. WHY did those cylinders only go 50 hours? There is no excuse for this. What in particular went bad?
    N1PA

  23. #63
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    Had great compressions but a lot of oil above the piston, shop was excellent and covered all under warranty
    Gerry Marcil

    Every day spent flying is a great day !

  24. #64
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-FIJK View Post
    Had great compressions but a lot of oil above the piston, shop was excellent and covered all under warranty
    No further comment.
    N1PA

  25. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by C-FIJK View Post
    Had great compressions but a lot of oil above the piston, shop was excellent and covered all under warranty
    they forget to put the valve seals on?

  26. #66
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    So got my new rocker shafts, buttons, intakes hoses, drain back lines and decided I need some new engine mount bushings as well. Had had these ordered for some time but Lycoming had the back ordered till the first week in Sept. When they didn't ship I checked and they are now BO till Oct so I ordered Superior. They seem a bit harder when tightening to the 1.84". I think they were due. Had to open up the hole in my lower cowl where my Sutton exhaust pipe comes out.
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    Got everything finished Saturday morning and did a quick run and leak check after installing a Sensenich 56" pitched prop. It rapped up to 2600 plus rpm on the shallow take off at 14.5 to 15 gph fuel flow. When I leveled off I noticed a lot more vibration than with my Borer, so much so I took the 56" Sensenich that came on my Cub off my brother's Clipper and tried it. Still has a bit of vibration. Burns almost a gallon to a gallon and a half more fuel per hour but goes 5-8 mph faster. Put 3 hours on it so far and can't wait to put the Borer back on, hopefully by next weekend. Seems to have used about 1/2 a quart of oil in the 3 hours and is running about 190 to 200 degree oil temp at 90-95 OAT. This gauge/engine has always been run cool. It seems to pull hard so I think it will be a big plus once the Borer is back on.

    Haven't pulled the trigger on an engine monitor yet. The SR-8A a friend brought me will need 4 new CHT and EGT probes to the tune of $600. Thinking of maybe the JPI EDM350 Basic for about $800 retail. It is for experimental only but CHT and EGT are not required on a Super Cub. I could install my EI fuel flow transducer and not take up extra panel space except the instrument size. Gotta look into the legalities of that.

    Anyway, it is good to have my airplane back in the air and will be even better when I can use the Borer and really see what the changes in 10 hp plus the flow matching really did.
    Steve Pierce

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  27. #67
    C-FIJK's Avatar
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    Steve that's what I noticed as well bit more fuel but pulls harder. The down side I had to break engine in with borer prop 82+43. So heavy loads and higher rpm took me longer but is tight now
    Gerry Marcil

    Every day spent flying is a great day !

  28. #68
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Maybe a dynamic propeller analysis and balance is in order? It can reduce vibration providing the propeller itself is balanced properly and both blades pitched equally.

    Gary

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    My 700 hour bushings looked the same as yours, engine angle changed 3-4 degrees with the new ones. I gained 3-4 mph at 2400 rpm. Might be something worth changing at 1000 hours
    DENNY

  30. #70
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    My 700 hour bushings looked the same as yours, engine angle changed 3-4 degrees with the new ones. I gained 3-4 mph at 2400 rpm. Might be something worth changing at 1000 hours
    DENNY
    the bushing are on my inspection sheet as an item, you will wear the bottom ones out first & quite quickly...

  31. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    …..Thinking of maybe the JPI EDM350 Basic for about $800 retail. It is for experimental only but CHT and EGT are not required on a Super Cub. I could install my EI fuel flow transducer and not take up extra panel space except the instrument size. Gotta look into the legalities of that......
    On a similar vein, I'm thinking about adding a non-STC'd / non-TSO'd (aka "experimental only") 6 point CHT / EGT to my C180.
    This would be in addition to the required single-point CHT, so is it legal?
    I not only need to convince myself, but the IA(s) I do my annuals with.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  32. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    My first answer (post #3) was a minimal approach to fly a couple hundred more hours . But......if I were removing all 4 cylinders I would also install new rod bearing at the same time because it's not that much more work or money?

    Glenn
    Doesnt the current lycoming service manual require you to replace the rod bolts and nuts if you pull the rods? Which would be required of a certified mechanic to sign off the logs that the did IAW lycoming procedure?

  33. #73
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    Due to a recent turn of events (two engine gauges crapping out on the same trip) Iíve got an EDM 350 heading my way. I ordered it with their oil temp probe and ordered a standard VDO pressure transducer from amazon at $200 less than JPI wanted. If it doesnít work then Iím only out $60. I intend to add fuel flow down the road as my budget recovers.

    Steve, Iíll keep you updated on my thoughts on the system if youíre still interested.

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    lol!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
    Do you think the nitrous contributed to the failure?

  35. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by astjp2 View Post
    Doesnt the current lycoming service manual require you to replace the rod bolts and nuts if you pull the rods? Which would be required of a certified mechanic to sign off the logs that the did IAW lycoming procedure?
    I am not sure if it is required without looking it up but it is common practice.
    Steve Pierce

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  36. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    If I was experimental I would look at the EDM350 from JPI. I am not a JPI fan due to my experience with customer service but that is a quite capable instrument for the money. Installed one in a Carbon Cub SS.

    I called Electronics International but they are not planning on another rebate until Sun &Fun. Sales is checking with management to see if they would give me the rebate that just ended the end of August but no return phone so far.
    I was talking to my IA yesterday about this monitor. If I leave my required steam gauges in and install this he has no issues with just doing a log book entry. His take is TSO means nothing really if your flying part 91.
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  37. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by akavidflyer View Post
    I was talking to my IA yesterday about this monitor. If I leave my required steam gauges in and install this he has no issues with just doing a log book entry. His take is TSO means nothing really if your flying part 91.
    Mine's installed and would be functioning 100% if I had a magneto. I run dual Pmags and have been having (self-induced!) issues connecting to adjust the Pulse Per Revolutions sent via the Tach Output on the ignition. Other than reading double RPM, the EDM 350 is working perfectly, and when my new RS-232 to USB adapter comes in the mail I'll be able to fix that problem. I've learned more about serial data transmission protocols in the last 5 days than I ever hoped to know

    I installed all the new CHT and EGT probes they sent, but I re-used my EI OAT probe. I just cut the K-type connector off and crimped some female D-sub terminals on and it works great. I also re-used my shunt for the Ammeter. I think the gauge is calibrated for a 100A shunt and mine's a 60A shunt. I think it's reading a little on the high side on either charge or discharge, but the center around 0A is still right on so I'm not worried about it.

    I also bought a $70 VDO oil pressure transducer off Amazon that accidentally also has a 0psi warning switch, so I'm going to wire that into a light on the dash. I thought about keeping my mechanical oil pressure gauge and "T"-ing the line, but with both the EDM 350 psi reading plus a light on the dash I think that's duplicate enough. The warning switch apparently uses a different circuit than the pressure-reading side of the transducer, and uses its own 12V input. In your case a simple "T" fitting should work great to keep your certified gauge.

    I don't have MAP or fuel flow transducers yet. I think I'm going to try an automotive MAP sensor, but I'll get the aircraft-certified fuel flow cube. Not messing around with a fuel line to the engine.
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  38. #78
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamTom12 View Post
    I also bought a $70 VDO oil pressure transducer off Amazon that accidentally also has a 0psi warning switch, so I'm going to wire that into a light on the dash. I thought about keeping my mechanical oil pressure gauge and "T"-ing the line, but with both the EDM 350 psi reading plus a light on the dash I think that's duplicate enough. The warning switch apparently uses a different circuit than the pressure-reading side of the transducer, and uses its own 12V input.
    I would keep the direct reading oil pressure gauge. That is the one most important instrument in the airplane. An electrical failure would render both of your other two options out of service.
    N1PA
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  39. #79
    akavidflyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I would keep the direct reading oil pressure gauge. That is the one most important instrument in the airplane. An electrical failure would render both of your other two options out of service.
    That my plan as well. I only have OT and OP in my panel and they will stay. Getting the 4 cyl CHT and EGT is my biggest want at this point. Any other functions are just a bonus. The basic package for under 800 bucks seems like a no brainer.

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