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Thread: Anyone with experience with PA18/180 on Wip 2100A and Fowler flaps?

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    Anyone with experience with PA18/180 on Wip 2100A and Fowler flaps?

    Our legal stc'd Performancestol (Fowler) flaps, from AirFrames Alaska, are ready from the Airmen's Convention order! Still looking for someone who has actually installed these on their 180 horse amphibious Cub?

    Not interested in conjecture, looking for real world experience please?

    Thanks,

    Ward IV

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    I have experience with 180 Cubs on Wips and 26" Goodyears, but haven't flown the Fowler flaps or the Dakota slots. Looking forward to both, someday.
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ID:	44004I have about 2 years experience with the flaps on my PA12 amphib.
    The plane seems to takeoff the water at about 2-4 mph slower airspeed with one notch of flaps. The second notch pushes the nose down enough to take it off the sweet spot. Landings are slower with full flaps. The most noticeable difference is a lower nose position on final. Interestingly enough the plane won the spot landing contest at a recent flyin with a distance of 1 foot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonshine View Post
    Our legal stc'd Performancestol (Fowler) flaps, from AirFrames Alaska, are ready from the Airmen's Convention order! Still looking for someone who has actually installed these on their 180 horse amphibious Cub?

    Not interested in conjecture, looking for real world experience please?

    Thanks,

    Ward IV
    Don't really see a difference in wheels and amphibs, The Performance STOL Flaps like to fly and land flat when deployed.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Don't really see a difference in wheels and amphibs, The Performance STOL Flaps like to fly and land flat when deployed.
    That’s exactly the possible problem. Too flat and you rip the toes off your floats, and the engine winds up at the bottom of the lake a mile ahead. I have real world experience scuba diving for parts from a friends Cessna 180 with a 550 engine up front, that touched down “flat.”

    These awesome flaps have worked fine on straight floats, but amphibs are even more forward CG, compounded with a 180 engine.

    One of my best friends is an A&P who has reservation, which I am heeding. Given my real world experience, his reservations are appropriate.

    Surely somebody out there has done this configuration already!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimboflying View Post
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ID:	44004I have about 2 years experience with the flaps on my PA12 amphib.
    The plane seems to takeoff the water at about 2-4 mph slower airspeed with one notch of flaps. The second notch pushes the nose down enough to take it off the sweet spot. Landings are slower with full flaps. The most noticeable difference is a lower nose position on final. Interestingly enough the plane won the spot landing contest at a recent flyin with a distance of 1 foot.
    Thanks. Do you have the standard engine, or a heavier engine up front on your plane?

    I have flown Beaver and even Amphib Otters. They work great. I’m just not interested in being a test pilot, as I rarely fly alone.

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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonshine View Post
    That’s exactly the possible problem. Too flat and you rip the toes off your floats, and the engine winds up at the bottom of the lake a mile ahead. I have real world experience scuba diving for parts from a friends Cessna 180 with a 550 engine up front, that touched down “flat.”

    These awesome flaps have worked fine on straight floats, but amphibs are even more forward CG, compounded with a 180 engine.

    One of my best friends is an A&P who has reservation, which I am heeding. Given my real world experience, his reservations are appropriate.

    Surely somebody out there has done this configuration already!
    Hopefully someone will chime in but I can 3 point just fine with full flaps and empty which has a way forward CG. I don't see any issue, you have plenty of control it just flies slow flat, you can still bring the nose up.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonshine View Post
    That’s exactly the possible problem. Too flat and you rip the toes off your floats, and the engine winds up at the bottom of the lake a mile ahead. I have real world experience scuba diving for parts from a friends Cessna 180 with a 550 engine up front, that touched down “flat.”

    These awesome flaps have worked fine on straight floats, but amphibs are even more forward CG, compounded with a 180 engine.

    One of my best friends is an A&P who has reservation, which I am heeding. Given my real world experience, his reservations are appropriate.

    Surely somebody out there has done this configuration already!
    That is not the airplane's fault. There is no excuse for an experienced seaplane pilot landing flat whether on straight floats or amphibs. If the plane's loaded CG is too far forward, move the baggage aft or add ballast.

    If you are tending to land flat, your speed is too high. It has nothing to do with the type of flaps nor their setting.
    N1PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    That is not the airplane's fault. There is no excuse for an experienced seaplane pilot landing flat whether on straight floats or amphibs. If the plane's loaded CG is too far forward, move the baggage aft or add ballast.

    If you are tending to land flat, your speed is too high. It has nothing to do with the type of flaps nor their setting.
    Agreed. Make certain the operational CG is within the envelope and a float pilot with even average experience shouldn't have a problem. If you're worried about the weight of the 180, do an honest W/B. Same for the amphibs.

    I flew a Beaver on Bristol 4580 amphibs for years. That airplane empty was outside the forward limit. Which was a beautiful thing when loading it up. But coming in empty, you were pretty far forward CG. Pay attention and a squeak of power, and never an issue.

    But, get the CG where it SHOULD be from the git go, and you shouldn't have any issues.

    MTV
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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Ward, Have you spoken to anyone at Wipaire about your concerns? Curious if they have any experience with these flaps. I have reached out to several people I know with experience with 180 hp Super Cubs on Wip amphibs. One thing that came out of those conversations was that you do not have to use all of the flaps if you are concerned. I have 4 notches on my flap handle and that very last one is what makes the most difference.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

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    Love that round engine PA-12! Is that a Prince prop?

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    Yes, it is an 86X67 Prince Ptip prop.

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    I have a Supercub with 0320 (dynoed at 197HP) on floats with the Keller flaps, no issue at all. Suggest if you feel you are having forward weight issues, put 7lbs of lead shot in the rudder tube for better CG. That is common with 180HP cubs being nose heavy to get CG back in line, especially with only one person and no aft baggage weight.
    Or if you have the Pawnee prop, go to a constant speed Hartzell Trailblazer or MT Ultra. You will maybe lose a slight amount of overall weight but lots off the nose, and you will have 2700 for takeoff rpm and lots of options for cruise speed or economy.
    John
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    So I got a hold of my friendly neighborhood fish spotter with lots and lots of 180 hp Wip float experience who is hanging out with several of his buddies who do the same. Seems their consensus is that the flap allow you to land flat but don't make you land flat. When have you ever run out of elevator? He and his buddies are deep in the middle of salmon season and sounded a bit frazzled and was taxiing out for take-off as we got off the phone. One thing I have learned about Mark over the years, I take what he says to the bank.
    Steve Pierce

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Ward, Have you spoken to anyone at Wipaire about your concerns? Curious if they have any experience with these flaps. I have reached out to several people I know with experience with 180 hp Super Cubs on Wip amphibs. One thing that came out of those conversations was that you do not have to use all of the flaps if you are concerned. I have 4 notches on my flap handle and that very last one is what makes the most difference.
    Hi Steve,
    Yes, while considering this purchase I called them second, after calling Airframes. Wip would not, or could not give me an answer! Had my mechanic friend call them, and they as much as told him not to hang them on our plane. Cynically my first thought was that they are developing their own Fowler flaps?

    The easy answer is just not land on floats with full flaps. We, and our friends in Alaska, have so many VFR (visiting friends and relatives) that somehow wind up getting joy rides in Sonshine, I’m not eager for one of their relatives suing my wife because I screwed up....

    These flaps will be almost more experimental on our certified Cub than on all my friend’s experimental class cubs! I’m committed to the flaps, and supporting Airframes having bought them! There is just a measure of nagging caution that is keeping me from throwing them quickly on the plane. Thus, my optimistic hope to find someone who has done this already!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    So I got a hold of my friendly neighborhood fish spotter with lots and lots of 180 hp Wip float experience who is hanging out with several of his buddies who do the same. Seems their consensus is that the flap allow you to land flat but don't make you land flat. When have you ever run out of elevator? He and his buddies are deep in the middle of salmon season and sounded a bit frazzled and was taxiing out for take-off as we got off the phone. One thing I have learned about Mark over the years, I take what he says to the bank.
    Thank you VERY much for your efforts in trying to find someone who has what I’m looking for!

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    Quote Originally Posted by john schwamm View Post
    I have a Supercub with 0320 (dynoed at 197HP) on floats with the Keller flaps, no issue at all. Suggest if you feel you are having forward weight issues, put 7lbs of lead shot in the rudder tube for better CG. That is common with 180HP cubs being nose heavy to get CG back in line, especially with only one person and no aft baggage weight.
    Or if you have the Pawnee prop, go to a constant speed Hartzell Trailblazer or MT Ultra. You will maybe lose a slight amount of overall weight but lots off the nose, and you will have 2700 for takeoff rpm and lots of options for cruise speed or economy.
    John
    Hi John,
    This 180 has a solid crank etc... it’s heavier than your 150. CC and Wip struggled to get the 2100A certified on the 180 Cub. They were obviously able to adequately jump through the hoops to make it happen. This particular installation requires a 10# brick of lead in the tail. I’ve looked at the configurations you mention, and while the props are lighter, the extra gear for constant speed negates the weight loss...

    Bottom line, are your floats Wip 2100A’s?

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    P-Stol flaps do add 12lbs. In your case, it’s added in the right direction.

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    No Wips for me, Baumann 2200's. To me the best and lightest floats. Have set for cub and Husky.
    Understand the weight issue with constant speed conversions, but if it is even close it is a good move.
    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonshine View Post
    Hi Steve,
    Yes, while considering this purchase I called them second, after calling Airframes. Wip would not, or could not give me an answer! Had my mechanic friend call them, and they as much as told him not to hang them on our plane. Cynically my first thought was that they are developing their own Fowler flaps?

    The easy answer is just not land on floats with full flaps. We, and our friends in Alaska, have so many VFR (visiting friends and relatives) that somehow wind up getting joy rides in Sonshine, I’m not eager for one of their relatives suing my wife because I screwed up....

    These flaps will be almost more experimental on our certified Cub than on all my friend’s experimental class cubs! I’m committed to the flaps, and supporting Airframes having bought them! There is just a measure of nagging caution that is keeping me from throwing them quickly on the plane. Thus, my optimistic hope to find someone who has done this already!
    Paralysis by analysis.
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    In my view the flaps are the best single improvement one can make to a supercub. They lower the stall speed, make it land flatter, and do not make it want to drop a wing in slow flight, just seems to sink, wings level compared to stock flaps.
    Have had no issues on floats either, but do not have 0360, just 0320 with about 197HP per dyno.
    John

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    [QUOTE=jimboflying;752094]Click image for larger version. 

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    PA-12R ?? -- Love it !
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonshine View Post
    Hi Steve,
    Yes, while considering this purchase I called them second, after calling Airframes. Wip would not, or could not give me an answer! Had my mechanic friend call them, and they as much as told him not to hang them on our plane. Cynically my first thought was that they are developing their own Fowler flaps?

    The easy answer is just not land on floats with full flaps. We, and our friends in Alaska, have so many VFR (visiting friends and relatives) that somehow wind up getting joy rides in Sonshine, I’m not eager for one of their relatives suing my wife because I screwed up....

    These flaps will be almost more experimental on our certified Cub than on all my friend’s experimental class cubs! I’m committed to the flaps, and supporting Airframes having bought them! There is just a measure of nagging caution that is keeping me from throwing them quickly on the plane. Thus, my optimistic hope to find someone who has done this already!
    Hi Ward,

    I work for Wipaire and I’m catching up on some SC.org happenings. We don’t have any R&D programs ongoing for Cub flaps. I am curious whom you spoke to about the flaps, though. If you recall, please let me know. Our STCs are typically worded to allow the installer to determine compatibility with previously installed modifications. I would imagine the flaps would be similar. Unless there is an established compatibility issue, our line is usually to proceed at your own risk, and we’ll share any reliable experience we’ve gathered or learned of.

    Long story short, I can say I haven’t heard any field reports on these flaps from Super Cub amphibs. So, someone may have been trying to be cautious and ended up sounding discouraging. As with any modification, things can layer up and change the airplane’s characteristics, but get to know the flaps safely and methodically, and I’ll await your report on them

    —Amy


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  24. #24

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    My cub with the Keller/Airframes flaps can land with full flaps on floats, no problem, with 0320.
    John

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