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Thread: Near HIT (near-miss never made sense)

  1. #1
    Flying_Fin's Avatar
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    Near HIT (near-miss never made sense)

    Flying from Oxford Maine home to Millinocket today, 40 degrees magnetic heading, at VFR 3500' altitude. Over Brownville Junction, a Cessna Caravan appeared at same altitude, in FRONT of me, flying to the north, and my first view of it/him/her was as it made a drastic right climbing turn about 200' in front of me. I passed through his wake turbulence, and damned near s*it my pants.

    I guess the only thing VFR rules do is guarantee a less than 180 degree collision.

    Home save to KMLT, and was shaking when I landed.

    Here's a shot of leaving Oxford.



    Cheers. Keep those eyes open.
    Life is not a dress rehearsal, and is a fatal condition...make it count. It's a good landing if you can still open the doors.

  2. #2

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    VFR cruising altitudes have a lower limit. Yeah, keep your eyes peeled.
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    As a mid air survivor (N3389D), it can happen any time, any where.
    Tom
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    Speedo's Avatar
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    Yikes! Glad it was a miss and not a hit. Having a mid-air is my biggest anxiety.
    Speedo

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    Did you have a ADS-B traffic display going?
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    Flying_Fin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    VFR cruising altitudes have a lower limit. Yeah, keep your eyes peeled.
    I generally like to fly a couple thousand above ground, and it's pretty mountainous here, so going east 3500' was just right.
    Life is not a dress rehearsal, and is a fatal condition...make it count. It's a good landing if you can still open the doors.

  7. #7

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    Couple thousand above ground, VFR cruising altitudes do not apply. I think they start at 3000' agl. In hilly country you use the peaks for ground level.

    I have had ATC tell me I couldn't cruise at 2600 feet because it wasn't an approved altitude for my heading.
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    Flying_Fin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeeBee View Post
    Did you have a ADS-B traffic display going?
    Does not have one. Since not required until 2020, may not have been one in other plane either.

    Do they give proximity alarms? Never even seen one.

    Bob
    Life is not a dress rehearsal, and is a fatal condition...make it count. It's a good landing if you can still open the doors.
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    Flying_Fin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    Couple thousand above ground, VFR cruising altitudes do not apply. I think they start at 3000' agl. In hilly country you use the peaks for ground level.

    I have had ATC tell me I couldn't cruise at 2600 feet because it wasn't an approved altitude for my heading.
    I had to look it up. I guess I never knew about the AGL thing.

    VFR cruising altitude rules in the US and Canada[edit]

    In the US, there are specific VFR cruising altitudes, based on the aircraft's course, to assist pilots in separating their aircraft while operating under visual flight above 3,000 ft above the surface (AGL) but below 18,000 ft Mean Sea Level (MSL). Unofficially, most pilots use these rules at all levels of cruise flight. FAR 91.159[4]


    Guess I'm sorta "Unofficial"

    Uhm, below 3000' there are no approved headings are there? Maybe I haven't kept up.



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    Life is not a dress rehearsal, and is a fatal condition...make it count. It's a good landing if you can still open the doors.
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    Most Caravans since the early 2000's have G1000 and I am willing to bet since this is a working aircraft it would have ADS-B. In any event even if it was Mode C your ADS-B in from ATC would give you a heads up on your headset either using the aux output or bluetooth. Using ForeFlight and their Scout receiver (199 dollars) you could have had an audio alert of the inbound traffic. So would you rather spend 200 bucks, or have what happened to you happen again?

    https://flywithscout.com/index.html
    Last edited by GeeBee; 08-03-2019 at 02:04 PM.

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    [QUOTE=GeeBee;751884]Most Caravans since the early 2000's have G1000 and I am willing to bet since this is a working aircraft it would have ADS-B. In any event even if it was Mode C your ADS-B in from ATC would give you a heads up on your headset either using the aux output or bluetooth. Using ForeFlight and their Scout receiver (199 dollars) you could have had an audio alert of the inbound traffic. So would you rather spend 200 bucks, or have what happened to you happen again?

    https://flywithscout.com/index.html[ /QUOTE]

    I'm subscribed to iFlyGPS.com , and I make plenty of money, and am not afraid to spend it. I'm selling the plane and will leave upgrades to the new owner. At 3500' over Brownville I can't use flight following from Boston or Bangor. Apparently terrain is blocking me from their radar, but not sure what actual issue is.

    I guess I don't know enough about ADS-B and what it does, so I'll go visit Doctor Google.

    I also asked the support folks at iFlyGPS if they have a similar product. Seems pretty simple. Not sure if it shows just weather though from the video.

    Thanks
    Life is not a dress rehearsal, and is a fatal condition...make it count. It's a good landing if you can still open the doors.

  12. #12
    marcusofcotton's Avatar
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    I have an Ifly GPS 520. 1-2 yrs ago at their booth in OSH they offered a little Ping ADS-B in receiver to plug into it for under $100. Works well even for this Luddite.
    Practicing open cockpit extremism
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    SJ's Avatar
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    Flying_Fin, I did not see, do you have a Mode C transponder? The caravan should have picked that up.

    I'm a pretty big fan of ADS-B, and feel like we are getting more than we are giving up (privacy). We have certainly avoided close encounters with it more than once.

    One of my near mid-airs was during my primary training, we were doing power off stalls, and I looked to the right and saw a tomahawk doing a very nose high climb and turning our way with our wing tips about two feet apart. Kept me awake for many nights thinking of what could have been.

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------
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    Yes Cub does have mode C and I was squawking 1200. I don’t know enough about the system to know if I had to be visible to somebody with a radar or not and frequently in this part of the state it is very difficult to make radar contact due to the terrain.
    Life is not a dress rehearsal, and is a fatal condition...make it count. It's a good landing if you can still open the doors.

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    Slightly off topic, but do any of the ADS-B systems have aural traffic alerts? If the two planes that collided near Ketchikan had aural alerting I suspect the accident wouldn’t have happened.
    Speedo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo View Post
    Slightly off topic, but do any of the ADS-B systems have aural traffic alerts? If the two planes that collided near Ketchikan had aural alerting I suspect the accident wouldn’t have happened.
    I run ADS-B in via a Garmin GDL39 displaying on a Garmin 796 and the traffic display is great providing location relationship to me on the moving map, Mode C elevation difference, and target track of multiple conflicts. The system also works on a 496 but requires hard wire connection vs Bluetooth. It shows traffic on the primary map screen when zoomed in and depending on the settings you hear “Traffic” in your headset when the presets are busted and a detail screen pops up.

    Not much of a fan of ADS-B Weather and the NOTAM data has proven to be unreliable but I really like the traffic reporting.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!
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    SJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo View Post
    Slightly off topic, but do any of the ADS-B systems have aural traffic alerts? If the two planes that collided near Ketchikan had aural alerting I suspect the accident wouldn’t have happened.
    Yes, but it is your app / gps that provides it, not the unit - except in the case of the new integrated garmin units.

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo View Post
    Slightly off topic, but do any of the ADS-B systems have aural traffic alerts? If the two planes that collided near Ketchikan had aural alerting I suspect the accident wouldn’t have happened.
    Yes. Foreflight will give an aural alert. I have Bose A20 with bluetooth so when the iPad barks, it comes through the blue tooth. Example: "Traffic 2 O'clock, 1 mile 100 feet below". I actually like it much better than TCAS that would simply start barking "Traffic....Traffic" then would leave it up to you to look at the display, see the position, the start looking. On the other hand TCAS will bark a resolution advisory when you are about to collide where ADS-B leaves it up to you to resolve any conflicts. If you don't have bluetooth, simply run a line from your iPad to the aux input on your headset. Besides giving you an aural traffic warning it also will give you runway warnings, a 500' warning when approaching a runway and a warning if the airport you are approaching is not on your flight plan. I had an embarrassing moment the other day riding on an airliner out of ATL. I wanted to look at the airport chart for KGGG so I opened Foreflight on my iPad. As the airliner approached 26L in KATL it barked, "Approaching 26L" then it barked "Entered Runway 26L, 9,995' remaining" before I could get the volume turned down. Equally so approaching KSHV on the same flight it barked, "500' Runway 32, Shreveport Regional, airport is not part of any flight plan". Nice. I'm going to miss Foreflight when I switch to Garmin Pilot.

  19. #19
    Flying_Fin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeeBee View Post
    Yes. Foreflight will give an aural alert. I have Bose A20 with bluetooth so when the iPad barks, it comes through the blue tooth. Example: "Traffic 2 O'clock, 1 mile 100 feet below". I actually like it much better than TCAS that would simply start barking "Traffic....Traffic" then would leave it up to you to look at the display, see the position, the start looking. On the other hand TCAS will bark a resolution advisory when you are about to collide where ADS-B leaves it up to you to resolve any conflicts. If you don't have bluetooth, simply run a line from your iPad to the aux input on your headset. Besides giving you an aural traffic warning it also will give you runway warnings, a 500' warning when approaching a runway and a warning if the airport you are approaching is not on your flight plan. I had an embarrassing moment the other day riding on an airliner out of ATL. I wanted to look at the airport chart for KGGG so I opened Foreflight on my iPad. As the airliner approached 26L in KATL it barked, "Approaching 26L" then it barked "Entered Runway 26L, 9,995' remaining" before I could get the volume turned down. Equally so approaching KSHV on the same flight it barked, "500' Runway 32, Shreveport Regional, airport is not part of any flight plan". Nice. I'm going to miss Foreflight when I switch to Garmin Pilot.
    Sounds like it should ask what you want for dinner, table or booth, wine list, menu, and background music, then what hotel you want.

    Seriously, it sounds great. What is the product name and is it a device to bluetooth to an iPad or iPhone?
    Can you send a link. Foreflight and what else.
    Life is not a dress rehearsal, and is a fatal condition...make it count. It's a good landing if you can still open the doors.

  20. #20

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    You need an iPad. You need a ForeFlight subscription. You need a device and ADS-B in device.

    https://www.foreflight.com

    The Scout is the cheapest device, there are others that are better.

    https://www.foreflight.com/connect/


    Hook your iPad to your headset either with Bluetooth or a patch cord.

  21. #21
    Flying_Fin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeeBee View Post
    You need an iPad. You need a ForeFlight subscription. You need a device and ADS-B in device.

    https://www.foreflight.com

    The Scout is the cheapest device, there are others that are better.

    https://www.foreflight.com/connect/


    Hook your iPad to your headset either with Bluetooth or a patch cord.
    Need to look at how to put a patch or bluetooth to my David Clark headphones from my iPad or iPhone.

    Thanks, I will look at these, and appreciate your help/concern.

    Together we do better than apart.

    Cheers
    Life is not a dress rehearsal, and is a fatal condition...make it count. It's a good landing if you can still open the doors.

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying_Fin View Post

    I also asked the support folks at iFlyGPS if they have a similar product. Seems pretty simple. Not sure if it shows just weather though from the video.

    Thanks
    iFly gives you a good warning, You do need an input to your tablet though. Presuming you are working with a Droid the Stratux system works quite well to provide you with ADSB in as well as synthetic vision, as well as being quite cost effective.
    The warning system is visual at least in my usage, mid display on the left it will give you either a yellow or red warning symbol and the aircraft in question will be displayed in red. If you tap on any of the aircraft displayed you get a popup box with the targets altitude, heading, distance from you and closing rate or gain.
    It might have an aural warning but mine was never hooked into the plane's audio panel.

  23. #23
    Flying_Fin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlieN View Post
    iFly gives you a good warning, You do need an input to your tablet though. Presuming you are working with a Droid the Stratux system works quite well to provide you with ADSB in as well as synthetic vision, as well as being quite cost effective.
    The warning system is visual at least in my usage, mid display on the left it will give you either a yellow or red warning symbol and the aircraft in question will be displayed in red. If you tap on any of the aircraft displayed you get a popup box with the targets altitude, heading, distance from you and closing rate or gain.
    It might have an aural warning but mine was never hooked into the plane's audio panel.
    Looking into this.

    I have an iPhone and an iPad for devices, and iFlyGPS is registered on both. The iPad did not seem to get a good GPS signal suspended between the forward cockpit frame at eyelevel (only place it would fit) so I use the iPhone which gets full 4 bar GPS signals, and works fine.

    Again, thanks

    Scariest absolute 20 seconds of my life.

    Would like to avoid in future.

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    Life is not a dress rehearsal, and is a fatal condition...make it count. It's a good landing if you can still open the doors.

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    With just the internal GPS you do not get much benefit for the features within iFly or any of the other nav programs. It will tell you where you are so you can map where you want to go but no other "features" are available to you. One of my phones has a decent GPS receiver but I need two pairs of Magoo glases to see something that small. The real issue with most phones and tablets is they want to lock onto the A-GPS before they give you much of any true GPS. Fine if you are near cell towers and not up at any altitude where there is no cell service. But that is probably above the desired ceiling of most pilots whom are out to play not to mention you have fewer towers up your way than over here in VT which is essentially nonexistent coverage.
    For your Iphones the Stratus is the most common device to provide you with full features but it is far above the "Chump change" pricing the Stratux is.

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    Your iPad will give you VERY accurate GPS if it has the capability to receive cellular signal (does not have to be activated). That model has a very good GPS chipset in it. If you have a WiFi model, not so much. iPhone naturally has a good GPS receiver in it because it needs it to locate itself to the network. If you have a WiFi only iPad, I would recommend you invest in a GPS+ADS-B In unit such as Stratus, Sentry or Dual. Sometimes you can find a used Stratus 1 or 2 for sale for a good price.

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    Just flew from New England to Alaska and back with a new iPad Mini with cellular. No external GPS connected and it was extremely accurate for the entire trip.
    Mark
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying_Fin View Post
    Flying from Oxford Maine home to Millinocket today, 40 degrees magnetic heading, at VFR 3500' altitude. Over Brownville Junction, a Cessna Caravan appeared at same altitude, in FRONT of me, flying to the north, and my first view of it/him/her was as it made a drastic right climbing turn about 200' in front of me. I passed through his wake turbulence, and damned near s*it my pants.

    I guess the only thing VFR rules do is guarantee a less than 180 degree collision.

    Home save to KMLT, and was shaking when I landed.

    Here's a shot of leaving Oxford.



    Cheers. Keep those eyes open.
    Im sure that would have been a wiggins caravan hauling freight from Manchester NH to presque Isle, ME. HE would be with Boston center Hard to imagine that boston didt call you out to him if they could see your mode c. I would get on with BGR approach and see if they can see you

    jim

  28. #28
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Don't forget that after 2020 and all of you are loaded up with a warm fuzzy feeling of security that there will still be a bunch of us out there that don't have a transponder or ADSB. And I fly thru Maine in two different quiet aircraft quite a bit. I look out the window at more then the scenery.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    Certainly fine to live the life of "the silent service". I would say this. Maine has a lot of MOAs and IR and VRs. Personally if I wanted to fly silently while the rest of the world flew out loud, I would invest in a inexpensive transponder even if I did not have a comm. At least the fast movers would see me. How fast?

    Here is an F-16 vs a C-150. Here is a cockpit view from the C-150

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AerEgucD6J4

  30. #30
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeeBee View Post
    Certainly fine to live the life of "the silent service". I would say this. Maine has a lot of MOAs and IR and VRs. Personally if I wanted to fly silently while the rest of the world flew out loud, I would invest in a inexpensive transponder even if I did not have a comm. At least the fast movers would see me. How fast?

    Here is an F-16 vs a C-150. Here is a cockpit view from the C-150

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AerEgucD6J4
    How many military aircraft have hit an aircraft in a MOA in the last 50 years? The Adirondacks have MOAs and most of us around here have a couple thousand or more hrs flying in them year round. Alot don't have a charging system.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  31. #31

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    Would you rather make it easier or harder to be seen?

  32. #32
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeeBee View Post
    Would you rather make it easier or harder to be seen?
    I don't really worry about it. I like to fly and accept the hazards.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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    So do you check the sump drains?

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeeBee View Post
    So do you check the sump drains?
    Hell, no. That just makes them drip.
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    Which should tell you something, if you know why they drip.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeeBee View Post
    So do you check the sump drains?
    Yes I do. Do you stand up in the shower? Do you wear a chute while flying? Life is about accepting whatever amount of risk your comfortable with. Everyone's has a different level they accept. I also like old vehicles that have worn out parts and are difficult to drive because they wander around and the brake suck compared to modern vehicles. Makes me feel alive just like my first vehicle I owned, a worn out 53 Ford pickup when I was 16. Sometimes you need to pee on the electric fence once in awhile to remember your alive.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    Sometimes you need to pee on the electric fence once in awhile to remember your alive.

    Glenn
    Did that two weeks ago, my little blue pill hasn’t worked sense.... Huh....wonder if there is a correlation?

  38. #38

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    So how much trash are you guys getting out of sump drains? Around here it is an exercise in filling the drain thingie, then dumping it back into the tank. Cannot dump it on the ramp.

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    Yes I do. Do you stand up in the shower? Do you wear a chute while flying? Life is about accepting whatever amount of risk your comfortable with. Everyone's has a different level they accept. I also like old vehicles that have worn out parts and are difficult to drive because they wander around and the brake suck compared to modern vehicles. Makes me feel alive just like my first vehicle I owned, a worn out 53 Ford pickup when I was 16. Sometimes you need to pee on the electric fence once in awhile to remember your alive.

    Glenn
    One does not accept a hazard. One manages risk. My point is we all do things to manage risk. There is always a risk you can get water in the fuel and the fuel freezes or a slug of it enters the engine. You could drain the sumps and still have water in the fuel after flying through moisture. So how does one manage that risk? Tight caps and draining sumps before departure, then have a reservoir for water to collect if it occurs in flight. Same way with collision avoidance. There is a panoply of mitigations strategies. From eyeballs, to beacons, to landing lights. It makes sense to up your mitigation strategy if it does not cramp your flying style. If you want to be NORDO fine. Having a transponder blinking away does not mitigate NORDO anymore than a flashing beacon.

  40. #40
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    Sometimes you need to pee on the electric fence once in awhile to remember your alive.

    Glenn
    Perhaps that is why the sump drain drips?
    N1PA

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