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Thread: The "BEST" tie downs

  1. #81
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tnathan View Post
    Hello,

    Interesting thread. I was curious if there is a final ranking AV consumer didnít test the claw that I use.

    I bought a claw based on recommendations, but I thought I heard that at SnF it was a claw on the husky that flipped. Could be wrong.

    Abeís looks like a cool design. This is new to me.

    My wife use to use a dog tie out auger. She said it is cheap and hasnít let her down yet. Then again she hasnít tested in some of the winds you all are talking about.


    The duckbills looks light and easy but I wonder about cost. I suspect I would lose these over time so they could end up costing more than the other options.

    I wonder if some work better in different soils clay versus sand. Anyone pick their tie down based on the soil they are expecting. I ask because I thought augers are the least strong, but one of the comments above said they use an auger for Sandy soil? Should I throw my wifeís augers away or do they have a purpose for some soils?

    Secondly. I didnít understand about the pool noodles to break air flow or a spoiler. Sounds interesting but I canít visualize how these would get attached. My fear is they will come partially loose and whip the wing all night. Anyone have a picture?


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    We also had one Claw tiedown break and a couple pull out at Lockhaven when the big blow came through a few years back. I still have a claw but mostly use Flyties now

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  2. #82
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    One way to help tie downs remain anchored is use rope that will give and stretch some. That can reduce shock to anchors and especially aircraft tie down fittings. There's a balance...adequate strength versus some give. I prefer lots of 3/8" nylon - more rope available has helped me more than heavier line for the same weight.

    Here's some stretch info: https://www.qualitynylonrope.com/blo...d-stretching-/

    And some on strength of nylon: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/n...th-d_1513.html

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 11-27-2019 at 01:41 PM.

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    One way to help tie downs remain anchored is use rope that will give and stretch some. That can reduce shock to anchors and especially aircraft tie down fittings. There's a balance...adequate strength versus some give. I prefer lots of 3/8" nylon - more rope available has helped me more than heavier line for the same weight.

    Here's some stretch info: https://www.qualitynylonrope.com/blo...d-stretching-/

    And some on strength of nylon: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/n...th-d_1513.html

    Gary
    Not sure whatís best for airplanes. With boats, we wrap our line (aka rope) around a rubber snubber. It adds some gentle give that helps reduce the shock and wear that can result in failure. May be overkill here but thought I would pass along.

    https://www.campingworld.com/mooring...%20All%20Group




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  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skywalker View Post
    Why so little interest in tail stands? I would think the first thing would be reducing wind load in the first place. Perhaps a more easily stowed post guyed 3 ways.
    Itís an interesting idea to take out AOA, but how are you doing this? If youíre putting the tail wheel up on a bucket or something, I would be fearful that it would roll off and cause damage. If it is something more substantial, i would guess it would be too big to bring.


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  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    I've had no luck with Duckbills in water saturated soils. FWIW.
    Thanks

    So for soft soil and sand, what has worked better for you? Is there a silver bullet that works best across all soils or do some of these tools work better for some soils than others.

    Abeís looks interesting but I wonder if it out performs my claw.

    But, when the Alaskan boys say duckbills are a favored option, I am compelled to listen.


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  6. #86
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    That rubber snubber looks promising. Now with cold weather they may not compress as well. Two ropes one slightly longer can allow the short one to give some and the second is just in case it gets breezy. I've had strut to spar brackets deform under stress. Then there was a beef kit for them followed by Atlee's direct to spar brackets. In the end wing spoilers can help cut lift and loads on everything.

    Again long duckbills work even in wet soil providing the pull is somewhat sideways and not directly parallel to the cable.

    Gary

  7. #87

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    As with most things in life nothing is right 100 percent of the time. Sooooo if you end up on loose sand get out the shovel (part of the emergency gear!!!) and start digging. Bury most anything in a deep hole and cover it up. Now dig a hole for the tires and mound for the tail. I was up on sandbar in the Brooks range one day and the wind was blowing 20-30 looking to get worse. I had everything needed to make it right, Duckbills/shovel/wing covers with wing spoilers. I was getting ready for some geterdone work when I got to looking at a berm behind the plane. I had to do quite the taxi to get behind it, but once I did the air was dead still. I did not even put in Duckbills just turned tailwheel and blocked it. I have a buddy that has a great pic of how to tie down in sand I will see if he will post it.
    DENNY
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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tnathan View Post
    Thanks

    So for soft soil and sand, what has worked better for you? Is there a silver bullet that works best across all soils or do some of these tools work better for some soils than others.

    Abe’s looks interesting but I wonder if it out performs my claw.

    But, when the Alaskan boys say duckbills are a favored option, I am compelled to listen.


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    The medium to larger size duckbills work fine in sand. Drive them in as far as possible, then toggle them. They’ll hold a lot.

    Or dig a huge trench and bury a log.....

    MTV
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  9. #89

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    Some more info, if anyone is interested. Happy Thanksgiving.


    https://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...cumentID/22573

    https://www.eaa.org/en/airventure/ea...-down-aircraft






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  10. #90

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    One more question for the group: what about knots? Anyone have any sense what works best.

    On the anchor end I use a bowline, what about on the strut end?

    I have used half hitches and taught line hitch. Both slip easily.

    I then started using a truckers hitch, but my DPE during my check ride said stop when he saw me tying down and told me to use the knot in the video below.

    Its what I see a lot on the ramp here in Maryland. Itís super easy and can be untied easily, but it looks to me like it depends on tension in the lose end. I wonder if it would come undone if the wind is cyclically stretching your line. For you guys tying down in 50kt winds, what works best for you all?

    https://youtu.be/UMITtV80xpY




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  11. #91
    mvivion's Avatar
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    I’ve used that knot for decades to secure airplanes. Sometimes called an “Airman’s Hitch”, it works well. I like to lock the hitch with a half hitch with the free end.

    And, yes, that knot can loosen a bit if the airplane rocks a lot in a very gusty condition. That said, this is why I like to “tend” my airplane in a big wind, frequently checking on taughtness of lines. I don’t want to think of the sleepless nights that resulted from that, but never had a plane damaged by wind yet.

    MTV
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  12. #92

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    That is the knot I use also, I was a sailor in a previous life so I knew how to tie knots and the first time I saw it I was skeptical but it does work great. On the ground end I use a bowline hitch. I try to clip to the ground wire/chain/eye with a large carabiner so the rope does not chafe.
    DENNY
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  13. #93
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    I've had the best luck with twisted rope and the airplane knot. That method likes friction and pressure to work well and the twisted line is rougher than smooth braided. But like Mike notes over time it gives some and needs attention.

    Another advantage of the airplane knot is that in can be adjusted during a wind event. Grab the rope and push up on the knot from below. It'll loosen the knot(s) enough to be unwrapped and the rope pulled tighter then retied. Regular monkey fist jammed up knots don't like to come apart easily.

    Bowline knots should be kept under tension or they can loosen especially in the wind. Any knot will benefit from a simple tight half hitch followed by a plain knot on the loose end. The half hitch limits movement of the loose end and the plain knot prevents the rope/line from pulling back through others.

    Try to put a full circle wrap of rope around any solid attachment (not just one half turn). That spreads the rope's stress instead of being focused on half or less.

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 11-28-2019 at 12:27 PM.

  14. #94
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    https://youtu.be/f2_BSFcCxhM?t=60


    I've been using this knot lately. It's a variation of the bowline that can be tied under tension. It takes some effort to get it snug, but it will not come loose. Tested during the Friday night/Saturday morning blows at Oshkosh this year.

    For tiedown stakes, I made mine from 1.00 x .125 aluminum tube drilled for four 14 inch nails, 10mm static line for rope. If I'm worried about the weather, I drive an extra anchor at the tail and one under the gear cabane for a five point tiedown. They hold real well in anything that's not too soft.
    Last edited by txpacer; 11-28-2019 at 01:18 PM.

  15. #95
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Homey likes it!I could never tie it the other way. Looked like a sex knot!

    Quote Originally Posted by txpacer View Post
    https://youtu.be/f2_BSFcCxhM?t=60


    I've been using this knot lately. It's a variation of the bowline that can be tied under tension. It takes some effort to get it snug, but it will not come loose. Tested during the Friday night/Saturday morning blows at Oshkosh this year.

    For tiedown stakes, I made mine from 1.00 x .125 aluminum tube drilled for four 14 inch nails, 10mm static line for rope. If I'm worried about the weather, I drive an extra anchor at the tail and one under the gear cabane for a five point tiedown. They hold real well in anything that's not too soft.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  16. #96
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    I use nylon strap bike binders. Got rid of the hooks at the ends & have loops sewn or tied into the strap.
    Usually loop it to the ground anchor, and use a shackle or carabiner at the wing eye.
    Easy & seems to work well, although I've never experienced a windstorm event with them.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  17. #97
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    Having rode out some horrible blows in Alaska over the years, ( mostly down on the peninsula). A few things come to mind. Old timers like Don Johnson , John Swiss, and that crowd of old Polar Bear guides had some interesting " cub survival" methods you dont see much anymore.
    Many of the old tie downs were simply
    "Gas cans full of rocks, buryed 3/4 ft down". It was a common practice to have ' 4 way' tiedowns with positioning say 4ft out past wing strut to get proper wing rope angles. It was common to dig out holes for tires,so the Cub could be pulled down into them ( prop level to the ground) to REMOVE all AOA of the wings. This in itself makes a HUGE difference in how much ' dancing n twisting' a Cub will do in winds over 40kts. They never tied the tail tight, allways leaving a foot or so of slack. Never just tied to the loop or rings at end of struts, ALWAYS went around tbe strut and just used the tie down loop to make sure ropes couldnt slip down struts, after being streached. Most all of them had installed Atlees " filler blocks" to the Uchanel pieces that hold the strut to the spar, that eliminates that known failure point.
    His over the spar bands are even a better cure. 1/2" pure Nylon ropes of a 'dock line' style were prefered type.
    And last but NOT least a V of rope was tied forward from each wing strut to that 4th tie down creating a "shock absorber" that would become the 'saving grace' in the over 60kt blows.
    Some guys claimed to simply tie from the back of the prop to the 4th tie down, and that would work too.
    And the last resort was if you got caught out in a big blow is to simply " drive her in to the alders" till the prop augers a hole in, till the wings are fully
    into the alders. This barbaric method has saved many a Cub because the wind ( even 80kt winds) are so defused coming thru the tops of the alders it has no where near the same lifting component as if the wing was subjected to the undisturbed air. I had a Cub tied in a' 4 way tiedown' Marlin Grasser had, in Amber Bay at spring bear camp, in a 70kt blow.
    A young petrified pilot got caught on the east side, he landed when he saw our weatherport, in close to 40kt winds and nearly rolled it up in a ball, we walked him over by the tents and it was obvious he was going to loose the plane, I was telling him to" drive it in" but he really didnt get it???? But after the prop started cutting the way and us pushing we got it into the brush and was able to tie into some of the largest alders and he rode it out same as I did,with Kennon mesh covers, and tied 4 ways with tires down in their holes, but out in the open........... None of this stuff is for the meek of heart. But all of it might save you if you get caught some day.
    E

    Ps. You will need to saw off alot of the Alders you bend over driving in. As if you try pulling it out some may bind and poke holes in your bottom fabric.
    Doesnt seam to bother a prop as much as you might think. Sounds crazy but it could save your butt.

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  18. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboBeaver View Post
    Having rode out some horrible blows in Alaska over the years, ( mostly down on the peninsula). A few things come to mind. Old timers like Don Johnson , John Swiss, and that crowd of old Polar Bear guides had some interesting " cub survival" methods you dont see much anymore.
    Many of the old tie downs were simply
    "Gas cans full of rocks, buryed 3/4 ft down". It was a common practice to have ' 4 way' tiedowns with positioning say 4ft out past wing strut to get proper wing rope angles. It was common to dig out holes for tires,so the Cub could be pulled down into them ( prop level to the ground) to REMOVE all AOA of the wings. This in itself makes a HUGE difference in how much ' dancing n twisting' a Cub will do in winds over 40kts. They never tied the tail tight, allways leaving a foot or so of slack. Never just tied to the loop or rings at end of struts, ALWAYS went around tbe strut and just used the tie down loop to make sure ropes couldnt slip down struts, after being streached. Most all of them had installed Atlees " filler blocks" to the Uchanel pieces that hold the strut to the spar, that eliminates that known failure point.
    His over the spar bands are even a better cure. 1/2" pure Nylon ropes of a 'dock line' style were prefered type.
    And last but NOT least a V of rope was tied forward from each wing strut to that 4th tie down creating a "shock absorber" that would become the 'saving grace' in the over 60kt blows.
    Some guys claimed to simply tie from the back of the prop to the 4th tie down, and that would work too.
    And the last resort was if you got caught out in a big blow is to simply " drive her in to the alders" till the prop augers a hole in, till the wings are fully
    into the alders. This barbaric method has saved many a Cub because the wind ( even 80kt winds) are so defused coming thru the tops of the alders it has no where near the same lifting component as if the wing was subjected to the undisturbed air. I had a Cub tied in a' 4 way tiedown' Marlin Grasser had, in Amber Bay at spring bear camp, in a 70kt blow.
    A young petrified pilot got caught on the east side, he landed when he saw our weatherport, in close to 40kt winds and nearly rolled it up in a ball, we walked him over by the tents and it was obvious he was going to loose the plane, I was telling him to" drive it in" but he really didnt get it???? But after the prop started cutting the way and us pushing we got it into the brush and was able to tie into some of the largest alders and he rode it out same as I did,with Kennon mesh covers, and tied 4 ways with tires down in their holes, but out in the open........... None of this stuff is for the meek of heart. But all of it might save you if you get caught some day.
    E

    Ps. You will need to saw off alot of the Alders you bend over driving in. As if you try pulling it out some may bind and poke holes in your bottom fabric.
    Doesnt seam to bother a prop as much as you might think. Sounds crazy but it could save your butt.

    Sent from my LM-X210 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    Wonder how that fits in with the crank bolt AD? Guess itís better than loosing the airplane!


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  19. #99

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    Yes, removing all the AOA makes a huge difference. Has anyone tried a piece of tubing that could be guyed 3ways to jack up the tail? A disc to keep it going too deep and some kind of fitting on top to clamp the tailspring.
    What's a go-around?

  20. #100

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    Iíve used tail Stands on 2-33 gliders parked outside lots of times. Decrease AOA and lots less lift. Also do 4 point tie down, pretty easy when you have the release hook on the nose!


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  21. #101

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    Different kinds of tiedowns work in different kinds of soils. For looser stuff, like sand beaches and open sandy or pumicey areas I like to use a simple buried deadhead. I engineered it myself. But I did not patent it, so you are free to make your own!

    Click image for larger version. 

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  22. #102
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    Here's an article that I wrote for the EAA magazine a few years ago, which is a refreshed look at HG Frautchy's article that is linked of the AirVenture "tie down" page. I have used these for years. I made two sets, so I can always "double down" if the wind is going to be particularly strong.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Joe

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