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The "BEST" tie downs

….. The tail tie down failed because I had it fastened to the tail spring loaded handles. The 60+mph first gust ripped the eye off of the handle leaving the claw in the ground. When the plane spun 180 into the wind, it pulled up the Wing Claws. …...

I've seen this kind of thing in different type of failures,
most notably, a scaffold-- one support was hit by a truck and collapsed,
bringing down the whole structure.
It was fine, however, until that first support was damaged.
I'm curious why you fastened to the eye(s) in the pull handles?
Do you not have the eyebolt where the tailwheel assembly attaches to the stinger?
That, or the t/w fork or head itself, seems to me to be the best attach point(s).
 
Dont forget a very important factor to holding a Cub in winds in excess of 50kts is the flimpse piece of channel that conects your spar to your strut is the fuse........ Hundreds have failed over the last 65 years. The best ropes and tie downs are useless to you, when this part fails. Atlee has two different cures. Either modify yours or its simply a matter of time before you
will learn the hard way........

Sent from my LM-X210 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
 
Hello,

Interesting thread. I was curious if there is a final ranking AV consumer didn’t test the claw that I use.

I bought a claw based on recommendations, but I thought I heard that at SnF it was a claw on the husky that flipped. Could be wrong.

Abe’s looks like a cool design. This is new to me.

My wife use to use a dog tie out auger. She said it is cheap and hasn’t let her down yet. Then again she hasn’t tested in some of the winds you all are talking about.


The duckbills looks light and easy but I wonder about cost. I suspect I would lose these over time so they could end up costing more than the other options.

I wonder if some work better in different soils clay versus sand. Anyone pick their tie down based on the soil they are expecting. I ask because I thought augers are the least strong, but one of the comments above said they use an auger for Sandy soil? Should I throw my wife’s augers away or do they have a purpose for some soils?

Secondly. I didn’t understand about the pool noodles to break air flow or a spoiler. Sounds interesting but I can’t visualize how these would get attached. My fear is they will come partially loose and whip the wing all night. Anyone have a picture?


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F53BAC6E-73EE-4814-9594-10548D47A0A4.jpegSewed a 9-10” sleeve on top at the crown of the wing. Insert the noodle then put the wing cover on the wing. Takes about 6 minutes each to install. Haven’t done thieves lot and sure it will go fast with practice.
this is what Turbobeaver is talking about.
 

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I buy duckbills 30 at a time so I get a bit of a discount. I make up sets of 3 and put in plastic ziplock bags. The final cost is 25 dollars a set, I use 1-3 sets per year. The cost is nothing compared to that damage that could be done if the wind comes up. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR when it comes to anchors.
DENNY
 
If using dog rope augers try putting two or three (best) in at each wing or tail tie down. Screw them flush with the ground and spread them out in a triangle a couple feet apart at least. Connect them with rope or cable from each to a flat central point in the middle of the triangle. Tie your ropes or cables to that point - a heavy steel ring makes a good attachment. If the wind blows the rope to the wing or tail being pulled up will try to pull the three anchors sideways towards each other and not as much up. They'll hold better under a side than a vertical pull.

Gary (uses duck bills and ice screw anchors plus wing spoilers)
 
For us with floats..........one big advantage to duck bills is you can drive them into a lake or stream bottom.
If the wind comes up and you're on a beach with the floats rocking back and forth against the bottom or shoreline go drive some duck bills in deeper water and pull the plane off the bank and tie it down faced into the wind.
Can't do that with other tie down systems.
I am with Denny, the cost is cheap. And they flat out work.
Just make sure you have a good driving rod and that's long enough.
 
I've had no luck with Duckbills in water saturated soils. FWIW.


we got between 1,500 and 1,800 pounds on a pull test in saturated sand (glacier till) when we did our pull test with them. To get that we drove them four feet into the ground, which is not practical without having machinery to drive them. Not much will hold in saturated soils, no matter what you do. A sheet of plywood buried would be your best bet there.
 
Huh, I've not had any problems other then them eventually rusting. I have them in Lake Spenard, in Shulin Lake and even had some in the mud on the Deshka by the ADF&G cabin (adjacent to the island). All those have held over the years. The only place they wouldn't work would be the pond at the Kustatan. Not much works there when it's wet.

Since the dock floats and is 64 feet out in the lake I use them at the end with a chain to keep the dock straight. No pipes or posts sticking up to hit that way.

I guess I've just been lucky.

I don't use the tiny ones, I use the medium sized ones that AIH carries.
 
Arctic wire and rope is the best price I have found in Anchorage. If I was in the lower 48 I would do amazon.
DENNY
 
Full size ducks in wet soils or underwater are the best unless electrical pole tie screws are used. It takes 3' or more and even then a railroad jack can slowly pull them out...side loads are best so don't install them vertically under the tie down locations. Most up loads are not a steady pull and use two or more spaced apart for best strength. Stainless cable lasts and doesn't corrode. After years and galvanized can rust out at the thimbles if the water/upper bottom soil interface goes anoxic and low pH sulfide compounds create acids.

Gary
 
Why so little interest in tail stands? I would think the first thing would be reducing wind load in the first place. Perhaps a more easily stowed post guyed 3 ways.
 
Hello,

Interesting thread. I was curious if there is a final ranking AV consumer didn’t test the claw that I use.

I bought a claw based on recommendations, but I thought I heard that at SnF it was a claw on the husky that flipped. Could be wrong.

Abe’s looks like a cool design. This is new to me.

My wife use to use a dog tie out auger. She said it is cheap and hasn’t let her down yet. Then again she hasn’t tested in some of the winds you all are talking about.


The duckbills looks light and easy but I wonder about cost. I suspect I would lose these over time so they could end up costing more than the other options.

I wonder if some work better in different soils clay versus sand. Anyone pick their tie down based on the soil they are expecting. I ask because I thought augers are the least strong, but one of the comments above said they use an auger for Sandy soil? Should I throw my wife’s augers away or do they have a purpose for some soils?

Secondly. I didn’t understand about the pool noodles to break air flow or a spoiler. Sounds interesting but I can’t visualize how these would get attached. My fear is they will come partially loose and whip the wing all night. Anyone have a picture?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I was at Sun & Fun and I don't think anything would have saved some of those airplanes short of a few box vans blocking the wind.
 
I've had no luck with Duckbills in water saturated soils. FWIW.

I used them as tiedowns in Fairbanks for ~ twenty years IN the float pond, to secure Cubs and Cessnas up to 206 on floats, and on shore on wheels. They were in there for years. After ten years or so, i augmented the early ones that had galvanized cable with ones with stainless. But, after twenty years the ones with galvanized cable were still stout.

These went through some pretty serious gusty winds from T-Storm outflows. Which also creates wave action, to work against the anchors. I never gave a thought to whether they’d hold, there was never a doubt.

MTV
 
Hello,

Interesting thread. I was curious if there is a final ranking AV consumer didn’t test the claw that I use.

I bought a claw based on recommendations, but I thought I heard that at SnF it was a claw on the husky that flipped. Could be wrong.

Abe’s looks like a cool design. This is new to me.

My wife use to use a dog tie out auger. She said it is cheap and hasn’t let her down yet. Then again she hasn’t tested in some of the winds you all are talking about.


The duckbills looks light and easy but I wonder about cost. I suspect I would lose these over time so they could end up costing more than the other options.

I wonder if some work better in different soils clay versus sand. Anyone pick their tie down based on the soil they are expecting. I ask because I thought augers are the least strong, but one of the comments above said they use an auger for Sandy soil? Should I throw my wife’s augers away or do they have a purpose for some soils?

Secondly. I didn’t understand about the pool noodles to break air flow or a spoiler. Sounds interesting but I can’t visualize how these would get attached. My fear is they will come partially loose and whip the wing all night. Anyone have a picture?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

We also had one Claw tiedown break and a couple pull out at Lockhaven when the big blow came through a few years back. I still have a claw but mostly use Flyties now

Glenn
 
One way to help tie downs remain anchored is use rope that will give and stretch some. That can reduce shock to anchors and especially aircraft tie down fittings. There's a balance...adequate strength versus some give. I prefer lots of 3/8" nylon - more rope available has helped me more than heavier line for the same weight.

Here's some stretch info: https://www.qualitynylonrope.com/blog/everything-you-need-to-know-about-rope-and-cord-stretching-/

And some on strength of nylon: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/nylon-rope-strength-d_1513.html

Gary
 
Last edited:
One way to help tie downs remain anchored is use rope that will give and stretch some. That can reduce shock to anchors and especially aircraft tie down fittings. There's a balance...adequate strength versus some give. I prefer lots of 3/8" nylon - more rope available has helped me more than heavier line for the same weight.

Here's some stretch info: https://www.qualitynylonrope.com/blog/everything-you-need-to-know-about-rope-and-cord-stretching-/

And some on strength of nylon: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/nylon-rope-strength-d_1513.html

Gary

Not sure what’s best for airplanes. With boats, we wrap our line (aka rope) around a rubber snubber. It adds some gentle give that helps reduce the shock and wear that can result in failure. May be overkill here but thought I would pass along.

https://www.campingworld.com/moorin...=4580290569375827&utm_content=Catch All Group




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Why so little interest in tail stands? I would think the first thing would be reducing wind load in the first place. Perhaps a more easily stowed post guyed 3 ways.

It’s an interesting idea to take out AOA, but how are you doing this? If you’re putting the tail wheel up on a bucket or something, I would be fearful that it would roll off and cause damage. If it is something more substantial, i would guess it would be too big to bring.


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I've had no luck with Duckbills in water saturated soils. FWIW.

Thanks

So for soft soil and sand, what has worked better for you? Is there a silver bullet that works best across all soils or do some of these tools work better for some soils than others.

Abe’s looks interesting but I wonder if it out performs my claw.

But, when the Alaskan boys say duckbills are a favored option, I am compelled to listen.


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That rubber snubber looks promising. Now with cold weather they may not compress as well. Two ropes one slightly longer can allow the short one to give some and the second is just in case it gets breezy. I've had strut to spar brackets deform under stress. Then there was a beef kit for them followed by Atlee's direct to spar brackets. In the end wing spoilers can help cut lift and loads on everything.

Again long duckbills work even in wet soil providing the pull is somewhat sideways and not directly parallel to the cable.

Gary
 
As with most things in life nothing is right 100 percent of the time. Sooooo if you end up on loose sand get out the shovel (part of the emergency gear!!!) and start digging. Bury most anything in a deep hole and cover it up. Now dig a hole for the tires and mound for the tail. I was up on sandbar in the Brooks range one day and the wind was blowing 20-30 looking to get worse. I had everything needed to make it right, Duckbills/shovel/wing covers with wing spoilers. I was getting ready for some geterdone work when I got to looking at a berm behind the plane. I had to do quite the taxi to get behind it, but once I did the air was dead still. I did not even put in Duckbills just turned tailwheel and blocked it. I have a buddy that has a great pic of how to tie down in sand I will see if he will post it.
DENNY
 
Thanks

So for soft soil and sand, what has worked better for you? Is there a silver bullet that works best across all soils or do some of these tools work better for some soils than others.

Abe’s looks interesting but I wonder if it out performs my claw.

But, when the Alaskan boys say duckbills are a favored option, I am compelled to listen.


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The medium to larger size duckbills work fine in sand. Drive them in as far as possible, then toggle them. They’ll hold a lot.

Or dig a huge trench and bury a log.....

MTV
 
One more question for the group: what about knots? Anyone have any sense what works best.

On the anchor end I use a bowline, what about on the strut end?

I have used half hitches and taught line hitch. Both slip easily.

I then started using a truckers hitch, but my DPE during my check ride said stop when he saw me tying down and told me to use the knot in the video below.

Its what I see a lot on the ramp here in Maryland. It’s super easy and can be untied easily, but it looks to me like it depends on tension in the lose end. I wonder if it would come undone if the wind is cyclically stretching your line. For you guys tying down in 50kt winds, what works best for you all?

https://youtu.be/UMITtV80xpY




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