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Thread: 0-200 Puking Lots of oil

  1. #1
    39-J3's Avatar
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    0-200 Puking Lots of oil

    I recently bought a PA-11 with an 0-200. 700 hrs since overhaul. It is blowing a quart of oil an hour out of the vent tube. Pulled the four cylinders, overhauled, new rings and valve guides. Still blowing oil. Checked the elbow at the crankcase and it does have the extension on it. Any ideas?

    Thanks in advance.
    Larry.


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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Larry, how much out are you putting in it, anything more then 3 qts will blow out

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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  3. #3
    39-J3's Avatar
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    Today I started with 5-1/2 quarts. One hour flight down to 4-1/2. Before I did the top overhaul it blew out oil below below three.


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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 39-J3 View Post
    Today I started with 5-1/2 quarts. One hour flight down to 4-1/2. Before I did the top overhaul it blew out oil below below three.


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    5-1/2?. I've owned 4 of these engine and worked on another 10+ over the years and " Every " one of them will blow out anything over 3.25 qts, most of them anything over 3qts. It doesn't matter how big a sump it has. I have had 2 with the larger 0200 sumps and they were happy at 3 qts. I know some guys who only run 2.5 qts.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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    Agree. I own three right now. Anything over three quarts goes on the belly.
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    Richgj3's Avatar
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    I ran the 0-200A in my Legend for 700 hours since it was new. Always put 5 qts in at oil change. 25 hours later I would drain 4.5 qts out. NEVER saw it below 4.5. Similar results with my friendís Legend based in the next hangar. I did not have an air oil separator, just a breather tube. Cleaned the belly maybe once a year.

    Seems that level of oil going overboard indicates a lot of blow by.

    Rich
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    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    When I bought my 11 back in 94 I was keeping it at 4.5 qts and thought I need to rebuild it because it was using a qt an hour. On of my old mentors said keep it at 3 qts, 1900 hrs later it only used 1 at every 10 hrs. Stroker in my J4 and an 0200 in my Cub both at 3qts or less. 4400 hrs at 3 qts.

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  9. #9
    CenterHillAg's Avatar
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    I keep my J3 at 2.75-3 qts. Had it get to 2 qts several times on long days, never saw a drop of oil pressure or high oil temp.

  10. #10
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    All of the above comments are similar. There have been reports from many folks over the years that "It always throws out the top quart". It doesn't seem to matter whether the engine is worn out or has a new top overhaul. The answer has always been "Just leave out one quart". Now I ask this one word question, WHY?. I have never been able to figure out why some do and some don't. This doesn't seem to be exclusive to just the small Continentals as some of the big ones also do this as well as some Lycomings. So I ask this of you all. Have any of you learned... Why?

    I can understand when the oil capacity is filled to the top there may be some foaming or slow drainage back to the sump which can be thrown around by the rotating parts and thus out the breather or into the cylinders under the pistons flooding the rings.

    Most of us are concerned when the oil isn't full or is down more than one quart. Yet the manufacturer's manuals often say that the minimum may be as low as 1-1/2 quarts or so.

    So the question is Why does the oil at the top often get consumed at a rapid rate?
    N1PA

  11. #11
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    I wonder if the CC breather was plugged and a new one was added to the fill neck on the sump or the cap? Maybe a rockerbox cover?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

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    Ok. Wasn’t going to jump in, but here’s my story. Bought my O-200 Cub in 2001 with a mid time engine overhauled in the mid 80’s. It had an oil separator installed which drained back into the case. Flew it until 2017, adding maybe a quart every 35 hours or so. We overhauled the engine when we rebuilt the airplane in 2017. First, there was no rust or corrosion at all in the engine from returning the oil to the case. In fact, had it not been for some pitting on the prop flange, the crank would have been returned to service with just a polish. So, new crank, cam, cylinders and it was blowing a ton of oil out of the breather. Bought the aerobat breather elbow, and it was better but not good. Borescoped cylinders, checked case pressure with modified oil cap and airspeed indicator - all good. 100 hours in, I drained the oil, went back to mineral oil and ran it hard all the way to Alaska last month. In 48 hours of flying, I added 1.5 quarts of oil - all of which was on the belly, dripping off in small puddles all the way to the tail wheel. Came home last week and had similar oil “consumption”. I was running it at 4 to 4.5 quarts. I know about the 3 quart thing, but it was not comfortable over some of that terrain - just my personal opinion. Bottom line, I don’t like cleaning the belly so separator is going back on. A little oil makes a huge mess.
    Mark
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    39-J3's Avatar
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    So today I modified the end of the breather tube by cutting a 60 degree angle. Raised it up so it is above the bottom of the fire wall. Lowered the oil level below three quarts. Flew for a half hour and blew out half quart. One thing I did notice and not sure if it has anything to do with it,,,, oil pressure was at around 40 psi for about 20 minutes then dropped to 28 psi.

    Thanks for the feedback so far.
    Larry.


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  14. #14
    aktango58's Avatar
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    My O-540 likes to be about 9 quarts. Will run hours like that, but put in 10 and it comes out very quickly.

    Total theory here-

    Crank case pressure will pick up oil out of the sump/splash in the airstream (wherever it flows). The oil will stay suspended for a certain amount of time, then drop out and back down. Full sump is less time from oil to breather. Once you get to a point, the suspended oil drops out before air escapes.

    Again, total theory.

    A good test would be to put an extension on the breather and raise it up a few inches and see if that changes it at all.

    mechanics? Pete? better ideas?
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

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    Jerry Burr's Avatar
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    The vacum pump drive gear on the O-200 camshaft is positioned to throw or sling oil up through the right side hole in the case and right at the vent tube. Is anyone running a O-200 without that gear on the cam, and do they have the oil breather problem? Thanks. Jerry

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    Richgj3's Avatar
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    Jerry

    I was thinking of that exact thing but couldnít remember the details. Learned that last year while helping on an O-200 rebuild for a Breezey. Or should I say almost learned it.

    Rich

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    supercub's Avatar
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    I can't remember all the details, but we discovered years ago, like Jerry Burr said above, that if you don't have a vac pump on the O-200, it slings oil out the breather tube. Mam90, that's why we added the oil separator to 443. I'm not a fan of using a separator, but if the airplane is flown regularly, shouldn't be a problem. I'm building a cub now that will have an O-200 and I'll be installing a separator. As everyone knows, a little oil makes a big mess.
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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Don't we assume some pressure leakage during a cylinder leak down test is normal? How many retain 80/80 cold or hot? If lower the shop air is going by something...rings or valves. My assumption is combustion gas takes oil with it out the breather. The more oil mist available the more of it gets blown away. Lower oil level less mist?

    Another check for cylinder leakage might be to test the rate after the intake valve is closed but before the piston reaches TDC.

    FAR 33.39 (if it originally applied to an engine) is interesting regarding required oil levels and crankcase pressure:

    ß 33.39 Lubrication system.
    (a) The lubrication system of the engine must be designed and constructed so that it will function properly in all flight attitudes and atmospheric conditions in which the airplane is expected to operate. In wet sump engines, this requirement must be met when only one-half of the maximum lubricant supply is in the engine.
    (b) The lubrication system of the engine must be designed and constructed to allow installing a means of cooling the lubricant.
    (c) The crankcase must be vented to the atmosphere to preclude leakage of oil from excessive pressure in the crankcase.

    Edit: Found this comment> https://blog.aopa.org/aopa/2016/11/1...-the-dipstick/

    Gary
    Last edited by BC12D-4-85; 07-27-2019 at 01:05 PM.
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    I bought a '57 310 a few months ago, it was not much money but it was in annual and flying so I bought it. It has the big brother of the O200, the O470. I felt I was kind of taking a risk flying it 1000 miles to florida for sun n fun and back, but wow was it a nice flying airplane and fast 1000 miles in 5.5 hours. Turned out the old plane did just fine, no problems at all, other than not being able to get a good read of oil quantity when she is hot. I changed the oil filled it with 7 quarts and flew the first leg 1.6 hours and landed, got gas and checked oil, showed under 6 quarts after sitting a half hour, so thinking it was going thru a shton of oil, I added two quarts and flew 2 hours the second leg, checked again after gassing up and back to 6 quarts. Put 2 more quarts in and flew the last 2 hour leg to KBOW, checked the oil and back at 6.5 quarts. Came back to the plane two days later and it had 8 quarts in it. After sitting 2 days it made a quart and a half of oil, I can't figure out how it takes more that a day to drain all the oil down to the sump but that is what my 470 does. Since than when flying and I stop, I take what the stick shows and add 1.5 quarts to that and use that as the current level of oil (if stick shows 6, it has 7.5 in it) I have talked with a local Bonanza owner and he has the same problem. The book says to run 12 qts, that's way too much, I use 7 quarts as my target, any over 7 winds up lubricating the flaps and gear.

    Maybe your O200 also makes oil after sitting a day or two, are you adding oil when the engine is hot or after it sits a day?
    Last edited by supercub1999; 07-27-2019 at 02:02 PM.
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  20. #20

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    I had forgotten that bit about the vacuum pump gear. Maybe somebody can find a link to the excellent discussion we had a couple years ago?

    I have no idea why engines throw out the top quart. They seem to, and rather than engage in headache-inducing inquiries, I just run low. Three quarts on the J3, six on the Super D, ten in the 180, and 2 1/2 gallons in the Stearman. Less wiping after the flight.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    ß 33.39 Lubrication system.
    (a) The lubrication system of the engine must be designed and constructed so that it will function properly in all flight attitudes and atmospheric conditions in which the airplane is expected to operate. In wet sump engines, this requirement must be met when only one-half of the maximum lubricant supply is in the engine.
    (b) The lubrication system of the engine must be designed and constructed to allow installing a means of cooling the lubricant.
    (c) The crankcase must be vented to the atmosphere to preclude leakage of oil from excessive pressure in the crankcase.

    Edit: Found this comment> https://blog.aopa.org/aopa/2016/11/1...-the-dipstick/

    Gary
    Another snipit from that link you provided to the article by Mike Busch, explains why my O470 is happy at 7 quarts when the max is 12 qts.


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    flyrite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Burr View Post
    The vacum pump drive gear on the O-200 camshaft is positioned to throw or sling oil up through the right side hole in the case and right at the vent tube. Is anyone running a O-200 without that gear on the cam, and do they have the oil breather problem? Thanks. Jerry
    No gear on my cam, still slings everything above 3 quarts out . Took about 100 hours for the rings to completely seat and stop burning oil as somebody else said in this thread. A lot of folks have tried different breather solutions I found the one in my photo to work best


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    We are having this discussion about the Stearman. One of the pilots is seriously worried about engine damage with only ten quarts, and has found a Continental statement that 3 gallons is an absolute minimum. We have been running below 3, and he is convinced we are damaging the engine.

    I could use some guidance.

  24. #24
    brown bear's Avatar
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    Removeing the gear off the front of the cam on a 0200 has been talked about here before . Just remember you can remove the gear BUT you have to install bolts back into the cam ! If you don't you will have "very very" low oil pressure .

  25. #25
    CenterHillAg's Avatar
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    If it’s not making metal and the oil temp/pressure is good, it should be fine if that’s where it likes to run. Compared to it’s previous life, I’m sure that Stearman isn’t getting worked too hard.

    I run 8 gal in my R985, I’ve found it below 5 gal at the end of a long working day and it was running/indicating just fine.
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  26. #26
    Richgj3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    We are having this discussion about the Stearman. One of the pilots is seriously worried about engine damage with only ten quarts, and has found a Continental statement that 3 gallons is an absolute minimum. We have been running below 3, and he is convinced we are damaging the engine.

    I could use some guidance.
    Bob

    If youíre talking about the W670 220 hp Continental, I have over 1000 hours flying behind those and never heard that. The Flaglor Hi Tow I owned for many years was a Fleet 16B with a 220 on it built by Ken Flaglor in 1957. Itís still flying today with the Fleet oil tank that only holds 10 qts. I canít remember what the oil tanks on the others held. Stearman, WACO UPF 7, WACO UBA. I used to fly the Fleet down to 8 qts usually.
    Remember, these are dry sump engines. The amount of oil in the engine at any time is a small fraction of what is in the tank. The amount in the tank has to be enough to account for maximum flight time with an engine thatís using the maximum amount of oil per hour. I donít think thatís Three gallons. Iíd like to see the document your colleague is quoting. Iíll admit I can still learn something.

    Rich

  27. #27
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    ... and 2 1/2 gallons in the Stearman. Less wiping after the flight.
    Do you have this same issue about throwing out the top quarts in the dry sump Stearman? The oil level in the separate tank ought not to be effected the same as the wet sump engines.

    Quote Originally Posted by aktango58 View Post
    ....mechanics? Pete? better ideas?
    I'm low on ideas about this issue George which is why I posed the question Why?.

    This will give some clues as to why the capacity is what it is.
    CAR ß 3.561 Oil system.
    .......... The oil capacity of the system shall not be less than 1 gallon for every
    25 gallons of fuel capacity. However, in no case
    shall the oil capacity be less than 1 gallon for
    each 75 maximum continuous horsepower of the
    engine(s) involved unless lower quantities can be
    substantiated.


    There is also a regulation (the number of which slips my mind) which states that the amount of oil must remain not less than the minimum required when the consumption rate is at the maximum allowed. This is related to the fuel capacity of the airplane. For example this means that if the engine uses the maximum allowed amount of oil, to pick a number of one quart per hour and the fuel capacity of the plane is five hours there must be capacity to carry a minimum of 5 quarts of oil above the minimum requirement for the engine. This is one reason why radial engine powered airplanes have such large oil tanks. Radials usually have high oil consumption when compared to opposed cylinder engines.
    N1PA
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  28. #28
    Bill.Brine's Avatar
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    O-200 dribble at 3.5 quarts


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  29. #29

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    A-80 pistons. continental at one time, looks like they tried 5 rings to fix some problems. lot of friction on the cylinder wall.

  30. #30

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    My 0-200 holds 6 qts and never had to add more than a qt in 10 hours.I run it hard,2550 all the time. My vent tube runs uphill along the case then a 90 down to just behind the exhaust pipe.I have a small hole on the outside of the 90.Now I put the breather tube just behind the exhaust for a reason.,it won't freeze there.The small hole at the 90 is insurance but I believe it also prevents a suction occurring in the vent tube.The uphill run front to back gives any oil vapors a chance to cool and run back to the elbow.

    I took my oil separator off because I was finding water,lots in the return to the sump.I will clean the belly.
    Maybe I am wrong but my oil consumption is not an issue.

  31. #31
    flyrite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willyb View Post

    I took my oil separator off because I was finding water,lots in the return to the sump.I will clean the belly.
    Maybe I am wrong but my oil consumption is not an issue.
    1 qt. To 11/2 qts every 10 to 12 hours has been my experience

  32. #32
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Have the rings seated in since the top? That will cause excessive blow by.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  33. #33
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Have the rings seated in since the top? That will cause excessive blow by.
    The mystery is? If it was poor ring seating the blow by would be at all oil level settings?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  34. #34
    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    The oil pump's output may exceed the crankcase's return passages flow by gravity back to the tank (may be engine level attitude dependent). Also, more oil = more residual and mist left in the crankcase to drain due to lower sump lift head required by the pump = more pump output?

    Piston ring seal is required through the entire stroke's length along the cylinder wall not just at TDC compression as normally tested. Test along the compression stroke for any variance. If they leak blow-by can happen.

    Most oil rings are three piece scrapers that feed excess oil through their open middle back through the piston's skirt. If they don't work as intended more than normal oil gets consumed.

    Gary

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    Quote Originally Posted by tempdoug View Post
    A-80 pistons. continental at one time, looks like they tried 5 rings to fix some problems. lot of friction on the cylinder wall.
    Well there is only 1 oil ring on those, the others were compression and scraper rings...and have you ever weighed them and compared them to a 65 pistion? Those things were like lead slugs putting a ton of force on the connecting rods compared to 65 pistons. if I remember right, GO-300 and some 125/145/O-300 pistons had 5 rings too

  36. #36
    algonquin's Avatar
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    Been running 5qts. In my wife’s C-150 for years and doesn’t have a blow by problem.

  37. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by algonquin View Post
    Been running 5qts. In my wife’s C-150 for years and doesn’t have a blow by problem.
    That is better than the 2.5-4 quarts I am hearing for a 6 quart kidney tank...

  38. #38
    Doug Budd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brown bear View Post
    Removeing the gear off the front of the cam on a 0200 has been talked about here before . Just remember you can remove the gear BUT you have to install bolts back into the cam ! If you don't you will have "very very" low oil pressure .
    You will have zero oil pressure. When I built my o-200 I left off the gear and bolts. Could not get any oil pressure. Had to spilt the engine and fix it. In the summer I Polk a hole in the top of a plastic pop bottle and put the tube in the drink hole . Keeps the oil off the belly and you can see how much oil is being burned and how much is blow by


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  39. #39
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    Doug Budd's Avatar
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    I did read that but I was Concerned with no safety wire one might back out and then loose oil pressure and trash the engine or worse. So with a lot of cussing my self I split it. Good practice right?

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