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Thread: Radio and transponder question

  1. #1
    JeremyLee89's Avatar
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    Radio and transponder question

    Iíve got 53 Supercub that I am planning on reworking the old radio set up to a newer Icom a220. So Iíll have a good radio plus intercom set up for it. Looking at adding a transponder set up so I can go into other airspaces and able to work in the ADS-B also.

    Any suggestions on transponder and ADS-B?

    Also any idea how to get static out of the radio while the engine is running?


    Jeremy Lee
    Supercub 1953

  2. #2
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Trig TT22 transponder and TN70 ADS-B reciever and TY91 Com with built in intercom. Takes up little space, light and work great. Consolidate all the grounds and you should not have any ignition noise.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

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    Steve, I've heard that the TY91 intercom is a bit weak. It sounds to me like you are happy with in a Cub type of environment. I ask because I like the radio and would rather install it, but am considering another because it "supposedly" has a better intercom.

  4. #4
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Have had no complaints at all on the intercom. I install a switch to turn the VOX on and off along with push to talk buttons on the throttle panel so when the door is open they are used instead of the VOX breaking squelch all the time. When they said weak what did they mean?
    Steve Pierce

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  5. #5
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Have had no complaints at all on the intercom. I install a switch to turn the VOX on and off along with push to talk buttons on the throttle panel so when the door is open they are used instead of the VOX breaking squelch all the time. When they said weak what did they mean?
    Thatís how I wired my trig. Works good enough for a cub that the door stays open all summer in. Plus do you really want to talk to your passenger all the time?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    The A220 is a 's4!??'y' radio. Save yourself a lot of headaches and use a better com.

    ADS-B and transponder are about the same, not separate units. If you break it down, an ADS-B out system is a mode S transponder with a WAAS gps position piggybacked on the signal. I'm a big fan of NOT putting square radios in a Cub type panel as they were not designed for the trays. Go with the Becker AR6201 or Trig TY91 for a com and the TT22 for the ADS-B system. As Mr Pierce said, just add the TN70 GPS to the TT22 to turn it from a transponder to an ADS-B system. All of these units are designed to fit into the panel with no mounting tray.

    I've never heard of a TY91 being weak. Show me a 'weak' one and I bet I can show you an improperly installed antenna.

    As for the static on your radio, do some basic troubleshooting to find the source of the noise. Turn off the alternator field and check for noise. Then do your mag check and see if the noise goes away when you switch to one mag or the other. If you still have the noise, start pulling the circuit breakers one by one until the noise stops. Fix the source of the noise, don't try to mask it with filters.

    Web
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  7. #7
    JeremyLee89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    The A220 is a 's4!??'y' radio. Save yourself a lot of headaches and use a better com.

    ADS-B and transponder are about the same, not separate units. If you break it down, an ADS-B out system is a mode S transponder with a WAAS gps position piggybacked on the signal. I'm a big fan of NOT putting square radios in a Cub type panel as they were not designed for the trays. Go with the Becker AR6201 or Trig TY91 for a com and the TT22 for the ADS-B system. As Mr Pierce said, just add the TN70 GPS to the TT22 to turn it from a transponder to an ADS-B system. All of these units are designed to fit into the panel with no mounting tray.

    I've never heard of a TY91 being weak. Show me a 'weak' one and I bet I can show you an improperly installed antenna.

    As for the static on your radio, do some basic troubleshooting to find the source of the noise. Turn off the alternator field and check for noise. Then do your mag check and see if the noise goes away when you switch to one mag or the other. If you still have the noise, start pulling the circuit breakers one by one until the noise stops. Fix the source of the noise, don't try to mask it with filters.

    Web
    I donít have room on my small panel to fit a radio and such, Iíll have to mount them under the panel


    Jeremy Lee

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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    The Trigs take a 2 1/4" hole. Move and remove stuff if needed. I hate stuff between my legs in a Cub.

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    Steve Pierce

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  9. #9
    txpacer's Avatar
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    I have the Trig, too. It is, without a doubt, the best built in intercom I've ever used, better than many stand alone units. Quite happy with it.
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  10. #10
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeremyLee89 View Post
    I don’t have room on my small panel to fit a radio and such, I’ll have to mount them under the panel


    Jeremy Lee
    You need to pull up some info on Trig and Becker products. They fit into the panel like a small instrument. Hanging equipment down below the panel is bad news for several reasons such as difficult maintenance and leg damage in a crash.

    Web
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Have had no complaints at all on the intercom. I install a switch to turn the VOX on and off along with push to talk buttons on the throttle panel so when the door is open they are used instead of the VOX breaking squelch all the time. When they said weak what did they mean?
    Well, I'm an airline guy building a tandem seat Bearhawk Patrol. I haven't used an intercom since flying a Dash 8 in 97. ADF's and Loran were big deals when I was flying general aviation stuff. GPS & iPhones were from Star Trek. I'm unable to back up what "weak" meant when I concluded it, but it was from info gathered on line. The internet is always right....right????

    You answered my main question in that communications are clear. I'm glad I did not commit to a Garmin 200. Your panel in post #8 is close to perfect

  12. #12
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I am a Trig dealer so if I can help you out let me know.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers
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    Steve,

    I love your simple panel. Who makes the attitude-indicator pictured? Have you flown with it yet? Any experience to report?
    Jim Parker
    '65 Champion 7ECA - Flying
    ?? Bearhawk Patrol - Building
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    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Looks like an RC Allen? I have one, and two complaints - -

    First, assuming that the plane is in three point attitude when the unit is turned on, it cannot be pre-set by the user to display the correct airplane pitch attitude. So when achieving level flight, the unit displays nose high. That can be synched (corrected) by simultaneously pressing the two buttons at the top of the instrument, but pitch attitude for level flight has to be verified first. That requires level flight in VMC, absent other reliable resources.

    Second, and more importantly in my opinion, when making a coordinated turn then returning to level flight, the instrument displays a non-zero roll angle, which eventually (20 seconds?) corrects. My Dynon D1 does not do that. So if in IMC (rare, but sometimes), when rolling out from a turn, I trust the Dynon when the two disagree.
    Last edited by Gordon Misch; 07-11-2019 at 12:07 AM.
    Gordon

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    I installed a TY-91 in my Husky. Great transceiver. Since it is a "split" unit the TC90 control head is very shallow, so no issues with interfering with cross tubes or header tanks or the like. Also perfect for a Pitts, Champ etc. In my install I mounted the TY91 remote transceiver LRU in the aft fuselage. That also resulted in the antenna lead being simply routed from the rear of the aircraft to the wing root instead of having to snake behind the panel and up a corner pillar to the wing root. The Trig also allows for a second TC90 control head using the native TMAP interface meaning that tandem aircraft can have radio control from front and back. I didn't opt for that option. But it would be a real asset for instruction, especially in the likes of a Pitts S2B or Stearman etc... You can feel the quality of the Trig hardware from the time you open the box. Great stuff.

    The TY91 transmits loud an clear for miles and the excellent side tone has me talkin' like Sully Sullenberger.

    In my Trig TY-91 install I send RS232 frequency data from my Garmin aera 660. That allows me to tune the standby frequency on the TY-91 by simply touching my screen on the 660.

    I opted to use an external intercom as the specifications and description of the TY91 built-in ICS discouraged it. I like stereo ICS with karaoke feature for both ATC and music. Karaoke mode means no interruption of cockpit conversation or music with incoming transmissions. I am glad to hear good results from the field with the built-in ICS function of the Trig

    I am extremely pleased with my TY91. Although I have fallen in love with the Garmin GTR 200 or 200Bs. I have done a couple of installs (including Super Cub) and fly a Javron and RV8 with the remote version (GTR 20). It's hard to beat with 10W transmit, built-in stereo intercom with 3D audio for radio transmissions and passenger/pilot spacial positions and optional Bluetooth. Plus it has a native CAN bus interface that can connect with other Garmin equipment seamlessly.

    Would I swap out my TY91 for a Garmin GTR 200? Not a chance. If starting from zero would I install a GTR 200 or 200B instead of the Trig? It would be overwhelmingly tempting. But the TY91, while slightly more expensive, would be a more pragmatic and practical choice for a simple bushplane.

    I didn't see the RC Allen electric AI at first until I clicked on the photo to see the full panel. The aera 796 might also be interfaced to either a GDL 39 3D or GDL 5x series.

    As for ADS-B out. I am a huge proponent of Mode C with UAT out and anonymous mode. Take that with the understanding that I am a grizzled laissez-faire West Texas dirt farmer.

    Jim
    Last edited by jliltd; 07-11-2019 at 08:42 PM.
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  16. #16
    Charlie Longley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    The Trigs take a 2 1/4" hole. Move and remove stuff if needed. I hate stuff between my legs in a Cub.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Wow nice clean panel Steve!
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    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    The A220 is a 's4!??'y' radio. Save yourself a lot of headaches and use a better com......
    I've heard that before. It's a shame.
    Dunno how the A210 was, but I've installed an Icom A200 before (as have some friends) & we were all pleased with them.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    The A200 was an okay radio and was an easy replacement for the Bendix KY-97A. After that they suck.

    Web
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  19. #19
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimParker256 View Post
    I love your simple panel. Who makes the attitude-indicator pictured? .......
    I like that panel too.
    Im curious as well as to the make/ model of your electronic horizon, Steve.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  20. #20
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Steve Pierce

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    Steve. As soon as that RCA horizon goes wonky on you (and it will), replace it with something else like a G5 or Aerovonix AV-30. The Air Tractor factory likes to deliver their new aircraft with the RCA units and they don't last half a season. We just ordered an 802 and specifically had the RCA deleted as part of the sales negotiation.

    Jim

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    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	43658 here is the panel for the supercub


    Jeremy Lee

  23. #23
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Why don't you just cut a new panel and get rid of a BUNCH of weight? I'd lose about four of those instruments.

    Web
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    Jeremy,

    That picture helps mucho.

    I just did a similar retrofit to a 1955 PA-18A and we went with a Sandia STX 165 Mode C transponder with a Garmin GDL 82 ADS-B UAT out with anonymous switch. The Sandia STX-165 transponder is "all in one" and has a built-in altitude encoder so that really simplifies wiring and reduces the under the panel clutter. Just connect a static line directly to the transponder. It also has an optional OAT probe that allows the transponder screen to display OAT and density altitude. The STX 165 either fits into a 3-1/8" round instrument hole or a custom 1/2 3 ATI square cutout (panel punch loaner available free from Sandia). While our aircraft already had a King KY97A (under the panel mount) the same transponder/GDL combo described could be complimented by either a Trig TY91 or Garmin GTR 200(B) VHF transceiver, both of which have a built in intercom. Those modern built-in intercom functions also really simplify the installation and space requirements. In the case of our aircraft we are planning to switch the KY97A for a GTR 200B at next annual. Looking at your panel I might steer towards a Trig TY91. I am with Web about removing of all existing gyros and vacuum pump and/or venturis. You could replace them with one Aerovonics AV-20S mini EFIS, which is approved for type certificated aircraft as a NORSEE installation. That will save lots of weight and the AV-20S will add the safety of a modern attitude indicator with skid ball and other neat features built in. We put a AV-20S in yet another 50's vintage Super Cub back in April, Bluebear's 1952 PA-18A (along with a GTR com).

    Jim
    Last edited by jliltd; 07-14-2019 at 07:04 AM.

  25. #25
    JeremyLee89's Avatar
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    Iím wanting to do change up the panel but at the same time, it was granddads and dads plane and Iíd love to keep it the same but Iíd love to change it too. Another issue right now is money right now.


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  26. #26
    JeremyLee89's Avatar
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    Radio and transponder question

    If I do a panel upgrade. What would be the instruments that should go on there?

    Edit: preferably no glass displays for main instruments.


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    Last edited by JeremyLee89; 07-14-2019 at 03:30 PM.

  27. #27
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Minimum as per the Type Certificate are airspeed, altimeter, tach, oil pressure, oil temperature, and magnetic direction indicator.

    The minimal approach would be to get rid of all except the required instruments and fit them to a new panel. This will still allow you room to keep your cable operated controls on the panel and may allow room for a com/intercom and transponder.

    A more radical approach would be to install all required instruments in 2 1/4" size. Possibly installing a CGR-30P (all engine instruments in one hole). And still having room for Trig or Becker avionics. With some imagination, you can fit these into an original depth instrument panel.

    Web
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  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    I am a Trig dealer so if I can help you out let me know.
    What the cost for a com and a transponder


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  29. #29
    Stew's Avatar
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    Just wiring in the Trig TY91 VHF Transceiver and Trig TT21 Mode S Transponder. Really could not say no to adding a Trig TN72 GPS unit which provides accurate position info for the ADS-B equipped Trig TT21 Mode S transponder. As an aside, the guys here still reckon on a separate intercom in a Cub so will be fitting that as it is a bit late if the Trig TY91 comes up short.

    Perhaps getting old but I find poor intercoms very distracting when you are trying to do that pilot stuff.

  30. #30
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Just be aware you must use a TT22 in the US to comply with the ADS-B requirements.
    Steve Pierce

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  31. #31
    Stew's Avatar
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    Many thanks Steve, should have mentioned that.

    The TN72 GPS receiver is a fully certified product (FAA TSO-C199) designed for voluntary equipage and use in areas outside of designated or mandated ADS-B airspace. Glider, light sport and general aviation pilots can all enhance their safety by connecting a TN72 position source to their existing Trig transponder.

  32. #32
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stew View Post
    Just wiring in the Trig TY91 VHF Transceiver and Trig TT21 Mode S Transponder. Really could not say no to adding a Trig TN72 GPS unit which provides accurate position info for the ADS-B equipped Trig TT21 Mode S transponder. As an aside, the guys here still reckon on a separate intercom in a Cub so will be fitting that as it is a bit late if the Trig TY91 comes up short.

    Perhaps getting old but I find poor intercoms very distracting when you are trying to do that pilot stuff.
    Stew
    What are the requirements for ADS-B systems on that side of the pond? Are you following the US FAA requirements? If so, be aware of the power requirements for Class1 and Class 2 systems and that each item needs to meet certain TSO specifications. I'm just not sure what part of these apply to you.

    Web
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  33. #33
    Stew's Avatar
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    ADS-B Out

    The Trig TT21 is TSO approved for fitting to European and FAA registered aircraft as a Class 2 transponder. They are suitable for aircraft cruising slower than 175 knots, and operating below 15,000 feet, VFR or IFR, and used in areas outside of designated or mandated ADS-B airspace.

    Class 2 is just a case of volunteering to make yourself electronically visible. I use SkyDemon on an iPad and can see ADS-B equipped aircraft and feel it is right and proper to join the party and broadcast my whereabouts to other suitably equipped aircraft.
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