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Thread: Suggestions on hangar size

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    I have the roof on and the door almost ready to be sheeted...I better hurry...I can feel fall in the air.
    Attachment 44362
    The Ultimate door is nice, itís a lot of work to build it and rig it so it works good....I have about $2900 into it and about 3 days of labor. Iíll have another 2 full days into it before itís complete. Next is tyvek wrap, man door, siding...then I better get the apron poured. Whew, lotsa work for one guy to build a hangar alone for the most part.
    Did you put an electric motor on the door?


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  2. #82

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    Wood framed door? Is that typical in that area?

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Wood framed door? Is that typical in that area?
    Iíve got three of them in New Hampshire


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  4. #84

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    This is a kit I bought from Wisconsin...The Ultimate door co.
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  5. #85

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    Well, I paid all my bills for material which is on site and all I have left is to wrap the building, put the siding on and install my man door. I have all my electrical supplies and will wire it soon...power company is installing new pad mount transformer and meter base in two weeks....grand total $38,200. Lots of of my time though. I spent most of my summer spare time doing something hangar related. How’d I do price wise?
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  6. #86
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    Sounds outstanding to me, I’ve heard $35/sq ft down here for an insulated metal hangar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    Well, I paid all my bills for material which is on site and all I have left is to wrap the building, put the siding on and install my man door. I have all my electrical supplies and will wire it soon...power company is installing new pad mount transformer and meter base in two weeks....grand total $38,200. Lots of of my time though. I spent most of my summer spare time doing something hangar related. Howíd I do price wise?
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    Well Iíve built 6 farm shops and two hangars and Iím damn impressed! Thatís a well built hangar. Iím looking up that door on internet now, itís really different than Iím used to.
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  8. #88

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    I will put an electric motor on eventually. I put a cheap $30 boat winch for now until I get the power run to the building

  9. #89
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    Looks beautiful!

    One suggestion - before you cover up your trusses see what it would take to beef one (or more) up for lifting. I requested the truss company to provide a 2000 lb lifting capacity from the bottom chord of one strategically located truss so that I could hang a chain fall and lift the plane (or other stuff).
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    Suggestions on hangar size

    Nice job!!!
    Your hard work paid off.
    You can fully plywood both sides of any one of those trusses & achieve a 2k live load lifting point. Your lifting point should come from the ďtopĒ of the truss (peak of roof), not just off the bottom chord. A 5/16Ē thick x 3Ē wide flat bar thru bolted vertically from peak to below bottom chord of truss with a 1Ē lifting hole will serve you well. Install an outlet near lifting point. Then keep your eyes open for a nice electric hoist.


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    Last edited by Chicken Hawk; 09-10-2019 at 05:57 AM.
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  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    Looks beautiful!

    One suggestion - before you cover up your trusses see what it would take to beef one (or more) up for lifting. I requested the truss company to provide a 2000 lb lifting capacity from the bottom chord of one strategically located truss so that I could hang a chain fall and lift the plane (or other stuff).
    That is what I have been thinking in my plan for a single plane heated and air conditioned maintenance hanger. Don't know if it will ever happen but the dream get me throught these hot days.
    Steve Pierce

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  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    I will put an electric motor on eventually. I put a cheap $30 boat winch for now until I get the power run to the building
    I have a door just like this one; same company I imagine. I rent and the owner of the hanger installed it on an older hangar so there are a few leaks due to old, uneven concrete but all in all, I like it. I'm 70 and all it has is the hand cranked boat winch and we get along fine. I imagine that the degree of grunt is directly proportional to the weight of the counter balance used. Mine could probably use a little more weight but it works OK.

    One thing, at first the clear plastic sounds like a great idea for "free" lighting but unless it faces north (and most don't) there will be unwanted UV rays as well as light at least part of the day. I started to see some items (like tool handles) being bleached by the sun (I face east) and figured that the same thing could be happening to the plane fabric. I ran a cable just under the door trolley guide rails and rigged up 8x10 silvered tarps to slide along the cable. Very easy to slide them to the sides and secure with bungees when I want the door opened. Keeps out the UV and other light when unwanted and also discourages nosey folks when I am not there. Of course, with an all metal plane there isn't as much of a UV concern.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    Well, I paid all my bills for material which is on site and all I have left is to wrap the building, put the siding on and install my man door. I have all my electrical supplies and will wire it soon...power company is installing new pad mount transformer and meter base in two weeks....grand total $38,200. Lots of of my time though. I spent most of my summer spare time doing something hangar related. How’d I do price wise?
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    Dan,
    What size are the panels you installed?
    Thanks,
    Glenn

    From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be
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    Then he made the earth round... and He laughed and laughed and laughed!

  14. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    I will put an electric motor on eventually. I put a cheap $30 boat winch for now until I get the power run to the building
    Is there a hold open mechanism other than the boat winch?
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    Is there a hold open mechanism other than the boat winch?
    My 3 all have electric motors.


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    https://tuftexpanel.com/products/pol...x-panels.shtml

    Glenn,
    These are what I used....they cost a little more, but I like the fact that they block UV light and handle large temperature swings.....they are 26" wide
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  17. #97
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    Mine is 42x42 built simply as a T hanger on the important side (runway) and vehicle parking on the other. I have ordered materials for the Ultimate Door system which I plan to get started on shortly. Thanks Tom and Doug!
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    Last edited by 40m; 09-11-2019 at 11:41 AM.

    From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be
    found in all corners of the earth."

    Then he made the earth round... and He laughed and laughed and laughed!

  18. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chicken Hawk View Post
    Nice job!!!
    Your hard work paid off.
    You can fully plywood both sides of any one of those trusses & achieve a 2k live load lifting point. Your lifting point should come from the “top” of the truss (peak of roof), not just off the bottom chord. A 5/16” thick x 3” wide flat bar thru bolted vertically from peak to below bottom chord of truss with a 1” lifting hole will serve you well. Install an outlet near lifting point. Then keep your eyes open for a nice electric hoist.


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    A similar deal but on more trusses can result in a beam trolley being used the length of the building. I did my 40' shop this way, it has a 4" I beam (light gauge) and two 1 K capacity chain falls on rolling hangars. Used almost daily, not only can I pick but I can move thing with this setup, my earlier shop had the same setup, you just don't get too crazy with the loads! It drives me crazy when I see a tall hangar cramed full of misc stuff plus an airplane, and all the wasted space up high, with no way to utilize it. My shops also have various ceiling hard points scattered around so I can hang 500-700 pounds of rarely used things, like a table saw etc. For sure be qualified or get a qualified person to do it right. I also back off a bit when there's a couple feet of snow on the roof!

  19. #99
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    Height is great if you got stuff. Thinking on a heated and air conditioned hanger I want it just high enough. Can store my treasure in the main hanger.
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    Steve Pierce

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    I took my wife’s car for a ride tonight to show it where it will live while I finish building my Cub this winter!
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  21. #101

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    If you guys have cool pictures of work bench’s in your hangars...post em so I can steal your cool ideas!

  22. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
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    I took my wife’s car for a ride tonight to show it where it will live while I finish building my Cub this winter!

    Dan
    Im not a building expert, but I have built and maintained a few. Im concerned that there is no knee bracing at the top of your walls to the trusses . Looks like you are in the upper Pen of Michigan, and I sure you have plenty of snow to plow.
    A big snow load and the wrong wind will bring it down. It looks like it is studded 12' wall height? i was always planning for the amphib beaver (yea Right) and posted every hangar 16'6" and its more important there. I would check with a builder or engineer or your truss guy.

    jim

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  23. #103
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    Suggestions on hangar size

    Quote Originally Posted by Scouter View Post
    Dan
    Im not a building expert, but I have built and maintained a few. Im concerned that there is no knee bracing at the top of your walls to the trusses . Looks like you are in the upper Pen of Michigan, and I sure you have plenty of snow to plow.
    A big snow load and the wrong wind will bring it down. It looks like it is studded 12' wall height? i was always planning for the amphib beaver (yea Right) and posted every hangar 16'6" and its more important there. I would check with a builder or engineer or your truss guy.

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    Good catch Jim.
    Only the better truss manufacturers will give you lateral bracing or support wall requirements. Most donít want the liability / cost of reviewing the supporting sub-structure design.
    Wall to truss bracing is super critical in this configuration. Especially the front 2/3rds of the building. The full back wall is whatís keeping that building up in a wind right now.
    Get the braces installed ASAP.

    Avoid this happening....

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    Proper knee brace install will go to the top chord of truss.
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  24. #104

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    I was concerned about bracing also so I asked my building inspector last week...he said that diagonal bracing on the side walls from gable inward and down to the floor plate should be installed....no knee braces necessary according to him and the truss manufacturer. However....it seems like cheap insurance. That’s why I love this group...I’m no builder either I’m an Electrical Engineer...so your advice is very welcome....thank you so much!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    If you guys have cool pictures of work bench’s in your hangars...post em so I can steal your cool ideas!
    Something I learned from my father's shop and have used twice: instead of building a bench up against a wall, offset it 4' away from the wall, now you can walk around it, put bigger then the bench sized things on it etc. My bench is bolted down to the concrete, and shot in with a laser level so dead nuts flat and straight, and with built in drawers underneath. With more shelves behind it on the wall. The vice steel post was poured in with the slab, so rock solid. I'll post a picture later, I'm pretty proud of it, nothing worse then a wobbly work bench.

    Knee bracing? Never seen that in snowy Idaho, a belt and suspenders approach, go with what your local truss guys says they know, the building inspector I can almost guarantee you, is a failed builder. "There those who do and those who inspect others work." Rare to get one with real and good practical experience is my point, official title aside.

  26. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    I was concerned about bracing also so I asked my building inspector last week...he said that diagonal bracing on the side walls from gable inward and down to the floor plate should be installed....no knee braces necessary according to him and the truss manufacturer. However....it seems like cheap insurance. That’s why I love this group...I’m no builder either I’m an Electrical Engineer...so your advice is very welcome....thank you so much!
    The angle bracing is for one axis, the knee bracing is for the other (parallel with the trusses) and is critical to help resist the walls trying to rack over which is made worse due to the large door opening. Also, if I remember the code right (but it has been awhile) I thought rigid sheathing replaced the wall angel wind bracing your inspector mentioned.
    Last edited by OLDCROWE; 09-11-2019 at 09:29 AM.
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  27. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    https://tuftexpanel.com/products/pol...x-panels.shtml

    Glenn,
    These are what I used....they cost a little more, but I like the fact that they block UV light and handle large temperature swings.....they are 26" wide
    Dan,
    Tuftex info shows they should be mounted with maximum 24" o.c. cross bracing. The standard ultimate door only utilizes cross bracing at a much greater spacing - do you have any concerns on this?

    pb

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    Dan,
    Tuftex info shows they should be mounted with maximum 24" o.c. cross bracing. The standard ultimate door only utilizes cross bracing at a much greater spacing - do you have any concerns on this?

    pb
    All I saw was for roof installations where snow load is a big factor but it also comes into play on side walls as does wind and if you're over-spanned it may deflect and if severe could possibly fail.

    Key will be how much snow is allowed to stack against the door and the wind loading the door is designed to resist and it sees. Their design like all others turns the door into a diaphragm member to keep its shape when moving unsupported but turning that into a wall requires being able to securely attach that diaphragm to the structure in multiple locations. I couldn't see it in your pictures or on the door web site but I'm curious if there is a provision or option for drop pins into the slab to resist side loads and/or even at the jambs? Could be as simple as a couple of large diameter manual thro-bolts that penetrate into the slab, this helps at the bottom. Granted I'm in tornado country but my door (43x14 "Floating Door") has multiple large (1" dia.) pins that auto-drop into holes cored into the slab plus a hook and bale system that auto engages at the top when closed so it is rated to resist a UL-90 wind load and I built the hanger so it is faces away from strong storm winds. Another hanger I was in had manual boomers on the sides plus the drop pins... Just don't ask me how much noise it makes when you hit the open button after you forgot to release the boomers.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  29. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    All I saw was for roof installations where snow load is a big factor but it also comes into play on side walls as does wind and if you're over-spanned it may deflect and if severe could possibly fail.

    Key will be how much snow is allowed to stack against the door and the wind loading the door is designed to resist and it sees. Their design like all others turns the door into a diaphragm member to keep its shape when moving unsupported but turning that into a wall requires being able to securely attach that diaphragm to the structure in multiple locations. I couldn't see it in your pictures or on the door web site but I'm curious if there is a provision or option for drop pins into the slab to resist side loads and/or even at the jambs? Could be as simple as a couple of large diameter manual thro-bolts that penetrate into the slab, this helps at the bottom. Granted I'm in tornado country but my door (43x14 "Floating Door") has multiple large (1" dia.) pins that auto-drop into holes cored into the slab plus a hook and bale system that auto engages at the top when closed so it is rated to resist a UL-90 wind load and I built the hanger so it is faces away from strong storm winds. Another hanger I was in had manual boomers on the sides plus the drop pins... Just don't ask me how much noise it makes when you hit the open button after you forgot to release the boomers.
    Yup, there are spring loaded pins that drop into holes drilled in the slab, once the door is lowered all the way you pull on the handles bolted to the inside of the door....the pins pop into the holes and secure the bottom. I have considered putting some 1"x1" wood (nailers) to give more places to attach the panels to, but i figured I'd see how it goes....no question the door does have some flimsiness to it in some areas.....the plans say you can use aluminum to sheet the door as well....just no steel (too heavy). since the door lifts almost vertically for the first couple feet....the pins just do their thing, no need to touch them...winter ice will be another issue I'm certain....Time will tell.
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  30. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by OLDCROWE View Post
    The angle bracing is for one axis, the knee bracing is for the other (parallel with the trusses) and is critical to help resist the walls trying to rack over which is made worse due to the large door opening. Also, if I remember the code right (but it has been awhile) I thought rigid sheathing replaced the wall angel wind bracing your inspector mentioned.
    I think you are right on the sheeting deal, that gives the diagonal support it needs....heck it's 5/8" sheeting on those walls.....I'll mention it to the Inspector. I have never seen knee bracing around here either (we use 80 pSI) for snow load code around here....pretty high, but as I said, it looks like cheap insurance.

  31. #111
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    From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be
    found in all corners of the earth."

    Then he made the earth round... and He laughed and laughed and laughed!

  32. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gervae View Post
    I have considered putting some 1"x1" wood (nailers) to give more places to attach the panels to, but i figured I'd see how it goes....no question the door does have some flimsiness to it in some areas....
    This is tuftex installation sheet regarding side wall spacing -
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  33. #113
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    Since a few of you have them, I saw this photo today which I thought was some good ingenuity.

    This photo shows the counterweight in the wall slot, but also note the sideways and top mounted residential garage door opener. With proper counterweight that unit allows remote control and up/down limit switches built in. Not a bad thought. According the title it's a Michigan hangar.

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  34. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    Since a few of you have them, I saw this photo today which I thought was some good ingenuity.

    This photo shows the counterweight in the wall slot, but also note the sideways and top mounted residential garage door opener. With proper counterweight that unit allows remote control and up/down limit switches built in. Not a bad thought. According the title it's a Michigan hangar.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    That's cool.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  35. #115

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    It all depends on truss to wall attachment, knee braces are not required unless your attachment of truss to wall is inadequate. All the old pole barns had knee braces (and being on the farm with lots and lots of tall equipment we hated them) with the new truss connectors and corner braces they just arenít required.

  36. #116
    Scouter's Avatar
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    https://www.hansenpolebuildings.com/...n-knee-braces/

    well John Ford, just because our granddads did it doesn’t mean we should. ThIs article says the knee braces could put negative force on the truss.

    Jim

  37. #117
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Thatís an interesting article Jim. Unfortunately they of course donít dive into any solutions or alternatives other than ďdonít do itĒ.

    Like others Iíve built a lot of pole-type barns, and have to say the common practice was used.

    My assumption is that the authors are saying that poles, commonly only 4í down, has enough earth around it to keep the other 16í sticking out of the ground from being knocked over by the wind?
    If there are largely 4 sides with only a few openings I could understand to a degree, but with one side wide open, Iím thinking I need some more data to justify it.

    I can understand a slightly increased load on the trusses with a heavy wind against a wall, and the knee braces properly extended from post all the way to the top chord, and attached to the bottom chord as well. But Iíd rather have the roof take a small load than have the whole roof come down as one unit on failed walls.

    It would be interesting to see if anyone examined and collected failure points on wind/snow demolished pole barns.


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  38. #118
    40m's Avatar
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    The damage most often seen here in the Champlain Valley is a direct result of snow loads greatly exceeding the designed load resulting in truss failure and building collapse. I have always been pleasantly surprised by how little price increase there is between a truss designed for a particular zone and one which is built with a 50% greater top and bottom cord strength. Cheap money for the piece of mind during a nor'easter.

    From Genesis: "And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be
    found in all corners of the earth."

    Then he made the earth round... and He laughed and laughed and laughed!
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  39. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by 40m View Post
    Cheap money for the piece of mind during a nor'easter.
    Yah, like the cement we got last winter. We were glad it was only 20" here. That was heavy adhesive snow.
    Likes barrow pilot liked this post

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