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Thread: C90-12 question

  1. #1

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    C90-12 question

    I am new to this group so if this is not the correct place to ask this question, please set me straight.

    I am about to dive into a J3 upgrade project and planning on installing a C90-12. I understand there are at least 2 STC's available but niether allow the use of the starter and generator pads (I believe). So the question is, is there a legal way to use a C90-12 on a J3 with a starter and generator without going the Field Approval route?

    I am a member of the J3 group but have not received a reply to my question.

    Thank you,

    Pete
    Montana

  2. #2
    Clay Hammond's Avatar
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    There are some pretty good answers over there now, most of them leading up to don't do it or use a different engine to get better results. The 2020 ADS-B mandate is an excellent reason to stay away from retrofitted electrics in a Cub

    http://www.j3-cub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26900

  3. #3
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Not an answer to your question, but...... I have had 3 different friends over the past 20+ years that wanted to add a starter to a Champ and 2 cubs because they were not comfortable hand propping because they never learned a safe way to do it. And now hand start. It's not a big deal once you learn how to be safe. It's actually an enjoyable exercise once you get comfortable. Not sure of your mission, just throwing out an alternative method the starting it.

    Glenn
    Last edited by cubdriver2; 02-11-2016 at 05:08 PM.
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  4. #4

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    I fully intend to install a starter. I foresee the day when I won't be able to safely accomplish the flying leap. My new stroker is set up for B&C.

    But there is absolutely no need for an alternator - a good battery ought to give you four Cub starts in between charges. A continuous source is just not needed for a comm radio, an intercom, and limited night operation.

    Stay away from a continuously energized solenoid for the radios and lights. I run all month on one 7 AH gel cell without charging it, flying every single day. Aleta, down the block, can fly only four pattern sessions before recharge, and her battery is an Odyssey. The difference is that darn solenoid.

    If you really want an engine driven generator and a 90-12, I believe the Ellis Cubs have them. Maybe they can tell you how to do it. No, I don't know how to get hold of Ellis' IA.

  5. #5

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    Thanks all.
    Been propping my 85 Champ for 40 years so no problem with that. This J3 project is actually being modified
    to a PA11 with some additional PA18 STCs so I will end up with a heavy J3 with a stack of STCs that looks like a PA11.
    The engine is a C90-12 and came off a PA11 and I was told had a starter n gen all based on a STC. My guess is only the engine was covered. I am buildimg a LSA for my latter years and not concerned about originality and extra weight.
    So in 2020 non el system planes are exempt from the ADSB requirement?

    Pete

  6. #6
    n40ff's Avatar
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    I spent a good bit of time on the J3 forum and it was always said the -12's were never STC'ed. Maybe they were? Don't believe in an STC unless you have the paperwork in your hand. And yes, avoid an engine driven charging system.

    I even heard of a poor guy who bought a J3 w/C85(maybe C90?) without starter and gen but it was a -12. IA refused to sign off annual and guy complained to FAA(Big mistake) and they made sure it didn't fly...... I think he was able to convert the engine to a -8 but again, not sure.

    Only thing that seems sure is that it opens a can of worms,

    Again

    Jack
    Last edited by n40ff; 02-12-2016 at 07:29 AM.

  7. #7

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    C-85 -8 and -12 are on the type certificate. It is a logbook entry. The problems come with the C-85-12F, which some mechanics won't sign off. Easy fix - drift over to the J-3 forum. The C-90-8 is likewise on the type cert, but not the C-90-12. That still should be an easy field approval, or you can buy Paul Babcock's STC. If you really love ADS-B, and think you can find a place to install it, then put an alternator on there. Expect the value of your Cub to drop about ten grand.

    The heavier you make it, the less fun it will be to fly. Opinion.

  8. #8
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Ditto all of the comments above about the ADS-B requirement with an engine driven electrical generating system. The key words are: engine driven. If you want an electrical generating method, use a wind driven system. Once you have an engine driven system approved, you are not allowed to remove it to avoid ADS-B & transponder requirements.
    N1PA

  9. #9
    n40ff's Avatar
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    Field approvals are very problematic today.......

  10. #10
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Ditto all of the comments above about the ADS-B requirement with an engine driven electrical generating system. The key words are: engine driven. If you want an electrical generating method, use a wind driven system. Once you have an engine driven system approved, you are not allowed to remove it to avoid ADS-B & transponder requirements.
    Pete,

    You cited the requirements for Mode C Transponders, NOT ADS-B. Here is the regulatory language for the ADS-B mandate to take effect in 2020:

    (e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted—

    Big difference in the ADS-B regulation.....in this case, if you have installed a wind generator, for example, you will be subject to the ADS-B requirement, not just engine driven generators.

    That said, at least in my case, I'm not sure I care if I ever operate in Charlie or Bravo airspace again, though it would be nice to be legal in Echo airspace above 10 K on occasion. In those cases, however, I suspect most folks will adopt Bill Clinton's approach.....

    MTV

  11. #11

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    Oh - he is right. Never looked at it like that before. Ouch! I know good people who will be bit by that.

    My impression is that on a j-3, a wind driven generator system is not sufficient to overcome the drain of the solenoid, let alone ADS-B.

  12. #12
    hotrod180's Avatar
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    I'm not looking forward to the ADS-B mandate, but it may not effect everyone.
    I believe it will be required in class A, B, & C airspace, plus inside the 30NM mode C veil around some big airports.
    It will effect me since I regularly go into KNUW's class C airspace and KSEA's mode C veil, but if you're out in BFE somewhere it might not be a big deal.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

  13. #13
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Mike,

    http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx..._1225&rgn=div8

    91.225 Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Out equipment and use.

    (e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted—

    certificated with an electrical system means electricity generated by a device driven by the engine. Wind driven generators are not "driven by the engine".
    Last edited by skywagon8a; 02-12-2016 at 02:17 PM.
    N1PA

  14. #14

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    Hey Mike, I misplaced your number, please give me a call.

    Pete
    406/366-1435

  15. #15
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    Does a generator and battery alone constitute "a system" by FAA definition?

  16. #16
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I can't recall the exact FAR but it does say specifically that an approved system consists of an engine driven generator/alternator. A battery only powered system is not considered to be an "approved electrical system". This is why a wind driven generator/alternator gives you the full electric circuit without being called an "approved electrical system".
    N1PA

  17. #17
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I can't recall the exact FAR but it does say specifically that an approved system consists of an engine driven generator/alternator. A battery only powered system is not considered to be an "approved electrical system". This is why a wind driven generator/alternator gives you the full electric circuit without being called an "approved electrical system".
    Approved or Accepted....

    Time to use their own language against them.

    Tim

  18. #18
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    From the FAA's Pilots Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge

    Chapter 6 Aircraft Systems

    Electrical System

    Most aircraft are equipped with either a 14- or a 28-volt direct
    current electrical system. A basic aircraft electrical system
    consists of the following components:
    • Alternator/generator
    • Battery
    • Master/battery switch
    • Alternator/generator switch
    • Bus bar, fuses, and circuit breakers
    • Voltage regulator
    • Ammeter/loadmeter
    • Associated electrical wiring

    Engine-driven alternators or generators supply electric
    current to the electrical system. They also maintain a
    sufficient electrical charge in the battery. Electrical energy
    stored in a battery provides a source of electrical power for
    starting the engine and a limited supply of electrical power
    for use in the event the alternator or generator fails
    Last edited by jimrice; 02-12-2016 at 04:35 PM.

  19. #19
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by behindpropellers View Post
    Approved or Accepted....

    Time to use their own language against them.

    Tim
    Certified.
    N1PA

  20. #20
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    I can't recall the exact FAR but it does say specifically that an approved system consists of an engine driven generator/alternator. A battery only powered system is not considered to be an "approved electrical system". This is why a wind driven generator/alternator gives you the full electric circuit without being called an "approved electrical system".
    Pete,

    I don't know the answer to this conundrum. But note that the verbiage used in the ADS-B reg uses the term "certified". I assume (maybe not a good assumption) that if I have a field approved mod, the FAA considers it "certified". Otherwise, how could we consider that aircraft "airworthy"? I find it troubling that the language they use in the ADS-B reg differs from that used in the Mode C regulation.

    MTV

  21. #21
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Here are the two regs in one post. 91.215 states "engine-driven" and 91.225 does not specify engine-driven. I believe that elsewhere I have seen the definition of "engine-driven". I don't recall where. I interpret these to mean the same except that they were written by different authors at different times, years apart.

    91.225 Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Out equipment and use.

    (e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted—

    91.215 ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.
    (3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part provided such operations are conducted—

    I also believe that the use of the word "certified" implies "approved" by whatever method and by an "authorized" person. As in "I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with etc."
    Last edited by skywagon8a; 02-12-2016 at 07:54 PM.
    N1PA

  22. #22

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    The problem with that is the FAA lawyers can be the very worst literalists. Remember, there was room for interpretation in the IA renewal regs - you could do four annuals or eight 337s. Most of us interpreted that as allowing three annuals and two 337s, which would fulfil the spirit. But no - the lawyers picked upon the word OR, and made it an exclusive or, to nobody's advantage.

  23. #23
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    bob,
    I believe that interpretation is regional. Here three annuals and two 337s are acceptable.
    N1PA

  24. #24
    mvivion's Avatar
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    But, the bottom line is that, until an FAA lawyer provides an "official" opinion on the topic, all we can do is assume.....and assuming anything with the FAA is risky.

    MTV

  25. #25
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Well, I guess that I will be the test case since my no generator Cub lives under a class B.
    N1PA

  26. #26
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    Well, I guess that I will be the test case since my no generator Cub lives under a class B.
    Pete,

    So, how will that be a test, if it has no generator, it's clearly allowed to operate in that airspace without ADS-B......

    The question was, what if the airplane has an installed, certified (via field approval or STC) wind generator, for example.....

    MTV

  27. #27
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Mike,

    I have seen it in print but can not remember where. It must be engine powered. Certified (by any means) wind powered doesn't count as an "electric system". It is likely that the author of the rule has never heard of a wind driven generator.
    N1PA

  28. #28

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    Bump. My friends are purchasing an “Ellis” cub. It has a C-90-12F on it, with the required carb heat mod for the 90-8.

    No log entry, but there is a 337, approved apparently by the IA (wish I could do that) that simply recites installation.
    I stated above (3 years ago) that a field approval ought to be easy. I am about to find out!

    If I should fail, does anybody know how I can contact Paul Babcock, holder of STC SA 270 BO? E-mail would be best. I do have the address listed on the STC, and if all else fails will send an SASE there.

    The engine has passed a quarter-century of scrutiny during annual inspections. IAs who work on Cessnas and Cherokees do not have Cub type certificate information memorized, so I can understand how this happens.

    Thanks!

  29. #29
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Try this number Bob, http://www.buzzfile.com/business/Bab...n-781-337-2453
    His wife's sister was a high school classmate of mine.
    N1PA

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