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Thread: PA-12 Engine Upgrade STC SA2-159

  1. #1

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    PA-12 Engine Upgrade STC SA2-159

    Does anyone have a copy of this old STC and instructions/drawings. The FAA STC Site does not list it anymore.

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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes K View Post
    Does anyone have a copy of this old STC and instructions/drawings. The FAA STC Site does not list it anymore.
    Brand??? Who’s stc??


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    Have no idea. I am dealing with an atypical poorly worded 337 entry, 1963-05-02b sm.jpg

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    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes K View Post
    Have no idea. I am dealing with an atypical poorly worded 337 entry, 1963-05-02b sm.jpg
    Marden Airways, Waterville Me. The first and original 12 conversion for the
    0290 engine; they also held the 1st flap conversion for the 12's.
    'Colorguns' has the flap stuff but not sure about their engine paperwork. ?
    Mine is Kenmore (McKenzie) STC if that is any help.....? Jim D ( Cruiser) has most paperwork and drawings of 12 stuff ????
    E

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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes K View Post
    Have no idea. I am dealing with an atypical poorly worded 337 entry, 1963-05-02b sm.jpg
    So, why would you need the drawings and such if I assume it’s already installed?


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    Someone simply R&R'd the 0-290 with an O-235. Failed to show a reconfiguration to original in the airframe log nor did they process a 337 for the switch back. Now I have to do the paperwork and I wish to be sure the restoration to stock configuration was complete. To do this I need to see all the conversion drawings and instructions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes K View Post
    Someone simply R&R'd the 0-290 with an O-235. Failed to show a reconfiguration to original in the airframe log nor did they process a 337 for the switch back. Now I have to do the paperwork and I wish to be sure the restoration to stock configuration was complete. To do this I need to see all the conversion drawings and instructions.
    Having the original STC would be nice, but you would be conforming it back to the stock PA-12 data. No real need to have the STC. Not sure what’s available on the -12 as far as drawings and parts catalog, but the original engine installation drawing or parts book would be good enough to conform the installation. Don’t forget to remark the engine gages to match the new engine requirements. That used to be on the old ACA309 forms, but when they went away from using them, it’s all supposed to be marked on the instruments now.


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    dgapilot,
    Having the original STC would be nice, but you would be conforming it back to the stock PA-12 data. No real need to have the STC. Not sure what’s available on the -12 as far as drawings and parts catalog, but the original engine installation drawing or parts book would be good enough to conform the installation. Don’t forget to remark the engine gages to match the new engine requirements. That used to be on the old ACA309 forms, but when they went away from using them, it’s all supposed to be marked on the instruments now.
    Actually there were subtle mods performed on the baffling and oil cooler location among other mods and the very poorly illustrated Piper IPL does not help me confirm she is purely stock. The sure way is to compare the original 290 installation package drawings to what is there now. I have maintained maybe 12 PA-12's over the last 25 years and am by no measure a PA-12 GURU. A classic example at how unreliable the PA-12 IPL is was a situation I encountered last week on a 12. While replacing the left fuel tank I noticed the front spar attach fitting diagonal straps had 6 drilled bolts installed with fiber locking nuts. The IPL shows the single bolt and castle nut, listing their part numbers, only for the single bolt that attaches these diagonal straps to the fuselage. IPL diagram & notes edited.jpg

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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Your 337 clearly states that all of the original parts were used. It seems very clear that it was just a bolt in engine and prop change with the addition of an oil cooler. If I were you I would not be stirring up a hornet's nest. This is a big nothing.
    N1PA
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    The 337 only offers 5 sentences about what the modifier did. It does not say or indicate that it was the only steps he took or that it was all the steps he took. The next stand-alone sentence is the catch all: "The installation was done IAW STC SA2-159. I have seen few 337 alterations that have included every detail in their brief statement in the remarks block. They invariably refer to the data used for the full story and that is why I am seeking the data used. I do not feel I am stirring up a hornet's nest. I feel I am protecting my customer from any excessive liability down the road and I am protecting my ticket when I sign off the annual certifying the airplane is safe to fly, is airworthy and conforms to it's type certificate.

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    PA-12 Engine Upgrade STC SA2-159

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes K View Post
    The 337 only offers 5 sentences about what the modifier did. It does not say or indicate that it was the only steps he took or that it was all the steps he took. The next stand-alone sentence is the catch all: "The installation was done IAW STC SA2-159. I have seen few 337 alterations that have included every detail in their brief statement in the remarks block. They invariably refer to the data used for the full story and that is why I am seeking the data used. I do not feel I am stirring up a hornet's nest. I feel I am protecting my customer from any excessive liability down the road and I am protecting my ticket when I sign off the annual certifying the airplane is safe to fly, is airworthy and conforms to it's type certificate.
    To be honest, if you can’t tell the difference do you really think someone in the FAA or an Insurance company could? I think you are digging deeper than you need. You have done due diligence, and I will say, I do appreciate your concern for your customer and wanting to do things “right”. You have made inquiries to try and find additional data, and none appears to be forthcoming. I would suggest the next step would be compare the PA-12 installation to the PA-16 as they both had O-235s. I doubt Piper redesigned a lot, so you are likely to find many of the same parts on both airplanes. Those that are the same, the Shortwing CD has a large portion of the Piper drawings


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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    So, why would you need the drawings and such if I assume it’s already installed?
    I used to own a C150/150TD, it had all the logbooks & 337's back to day one,
    but not all of the installation drawings that were part of the three upgrade STC's
    (Lycoming 320, t/w conversion, LR tanks).
    I would have liked to have ALL the pertinent paperwork,
    to verify if need be that the installation was in fact done i/a/w the STC,
    as well as for future reference in case of it needing repairs or replacement parts.
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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    The big thing with STCs, especially engine changes, is knowing the installation is correct. Had this issue years ago with a 172 with Avcon 180 STC. Aircraft had a prop strike but no installation drawings for the engine. A con wouldn’t answer the phone to try and get drawings. The owner had to purchase a deferent STC for an O-360 of the right flavor so we could install the engine after the tear down. Had to conform the installation to the new STC.


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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    Question: If an FAA inspector has questions about an installation what resources are available to answer besides the current owner? Do they have access to STC data owners may not?

    Gary
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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC12D-4-85 View Post
    Question: If an FAA inspector has questions about an installation what resources are available to answer besides the current owner? Do they have access to STC data owners may not?

    Gary
    Whenever the FAA issues a TC or STC they retain all of the drawings and any thing else related to the certificate which has been submitted as well as all of the FAA's correspondence. It is stated on the Certificate which FAA office holds the certificate. Any person can go to his local FAA person and request that the entire package be brought to that FAA office where he can peruse it to his hearts content. If his FAA person is nice he may even let him make copies.

    In the past some FAA person have been too nice and have allowed a person to take the files home. They usually get returned but in some cases they have not. When they have not been returned, it is when you and I have trouble calling in the file.

    So to answer your question, YES.
    N1PA
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    The biggest problem with obtaining the data from FAA is they are supposed to protect “proprietary property” which all STC and TC data is. Order 8110.120 is the result of a SCOTUS case to obtain such data. Problem is, using the process they set up still takes about 5 years to jump through all the hoops.


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    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Well 20+ years ago I had no trouble getting whatever I wanted. A friend of mine was the chief of the New England Region.
    N1PA
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    BC12D-4-85's Avatar
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    OK thanks learned something worth knowing. Next time a question comes up I'll give them what I have and they can request the rest internally.

    Gary

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    Hardtailjohn's Avatar
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    The issuing office will do their best to contact the holder of the STC and resolve the issue. If it's not supported, then and only then will they give you info.
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