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Hooker shoulder harness

Wes K

Registered User
Northwest Wisconsin
Are there any existing approvals for the Hooker shoulder harness in the PA-12?
 
Are there any existing approvals for the Hooker shoulder harness in the PA-12?

Shoulder harnesses can be put in as a minor alteration, just a log book entry. There is an FAA document that states that.


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Could you please quote the document? I don't doubt you. I just want a record.

Shoulder harnesses can be put in as a minor alteration, just a log book entry. There is an FAA document that states that.


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Wireweinie, There is a big difference between "Replacing seat belts." and altering the seat belt installation to include additional belts. No FAR43 Apendix A does not support adding a new style style shoulder harness. It only supports replacing the original belts with approved like replacements.

Dgapilot, would you please tell us the title of the document you are referring to?
 
stewartb, Yes, that is a good choice of legitimate supporting data for a field approval submission but does not authorize a alteration as a simple log entry. What I am looking for are existing approvals such as: STC's, PMA's and older field approvals.
 
This is so easy - any aircraft manufactured before a recent date - including the PA-12 - can have a logbook entry shoulder harness. It is not entirely clear about the lap strap - I believe TSO is required for them, and Hooker is TSO.

Maybe replacement is a problem, but if so, remove the old shoulder harness, make a log entry, and then install the new one using the guidance Dave posted. No need for FAA certified webbing - you can use SAE, or any accepted standard.

This was not always true - I installed shoulder harnesses in the late 1960s, and they were definitely illegal - until the FAA got a bit smarter and encouraged guys like me.
 
Ok folks. Looks like no direct answer to my question.
Are there any existing approvals for the Hooker shoulder harness in the PA-12?
What I am looking for are existing approvals such as: STC's, PMA's and older field approvals.
So I must assume there are not any.

Bob,
any aircraft manufactured before a recent date - including the PA-12 - can have a logbook entry shoulder harness.
This is true so long as the mechanic follows all of the listed requirements and does not violate any of the restrictions.

Stev, Thank you for that link. I have been trying to locate that for weeks.
 
Okay. Read Appendix A, paragraph (a) Major Alterations, (1) Airframe and show me where adding shoulder harnesses constitutes a major alteration. Seat belts are NOT listed, therefore it is NOT a major mod.

Web
 
wireweinie, I have been in this business since 1966. I am an A&P, IA and PP. I didn't sign on for a major competition in how to interpret FAA rules. Those three category lists are not all inclusive and leave room for miles of interpretation. Even the many FSDO'S cannot agree on each other's interpretations.

My original post asked for existing approvals such as STC's and PMA's or older field approvals. Those three type approvals are all I am interested in.
 
Wireweinie, There is a big difference between "Replacing seat belts." and altering the seat belt installation to include additional belts. No FAR43 Apendix A does not support adding a new style style shoulder harness. It only supports replacing the original belts with approved like replacements.

Dgapilot, would you please tell us the title of the document you are referring to?

The Policy Statement that Steve posted was what I was referring to.


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skywagon8a, Thankyou. Another excellent reference for deciding on a course of action. I did have this one and have reviewed it but all I have asked for here is any copies of past PMA's, STC's and older field approvals that I can review to see how other folks handled the many issues that can make a minor alteration log entry not legal.

dgapilot, Thankyou for your reply.
 
Wag Aero has an STC. They use a 1/8" steel plate and an AN-6 to mount the harness to the center of an .032 steel tube.

A FSDO is not supposed to do a field approval for a minor mod. And yes, you can buy TSO shoulder harnesses.

This is indeed an unusual thread. Highly entertaining.
 
Don't forget this policy statement issued by the FAA.

The info & links on this page should cover all of your questions.
I'm no A&P, but I'd prefer to reference the policy statement which is fairly cut and dry,
vs trying to interpret advisory circulars.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/harness_kits/[/FONT]
 
When I was ordained a IA they gave me a magic wand , looks similar to a pen, and sent me forth to the world to make airplanes and pilots safer, given this great power I've found it much easier by asking the question is this safe or even much safer and would a reasonable man sign this off with a reasonable amount of supporting data( as presented above) , with a pure heart the force flows over you and the magic wand solves the problem. signed JETI Tom, or is it JET IA Tom.
I wrote this in good humor to help entertain all, I don't mean anything nasty
 
Bob Turner,
Wag Aero has an STC. They use a 1/8" steel plate and an AN-6 to mount the harness to the center of an .032 steel tube.
Wag Aero has no stc'd shoulder harness for the PA-12.

A FSDO is not supposed to do a field approval for a minor mod.
I have never seen any FSDO waste time doing a field approval on a minor alteration and I wouldn't expect them to!

And yes, you can buy TSO shoulder harnesses.
I've known that all along.

Hotrod180,
The info & links on this page should cover all of your questions.
They have not answered any part of my very basic question.
 
I have a hooker harness in my -12. Standard lap belt in the back.

I believe they noted it in the 337 when the frame was replaced. I’ll check my logs and let you know how it was worded, if it was at all.




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Are there any existing approvals for the Hooker shoulder harness in the PA-12?

The documents that myself and others posted allow installing any shoulder harness in a PA12, including the Hookers. What more do you need and why?
 
Best quote ever from an FAA inspector:
“Yeah people get wrapped up in regs” ...in regards to installing better seat belts.

I’m biased, but I believe the pdf Steve posted clearly defines their typically muddy position of “as a baseline we always want stc’s and field approvals, but we understand that this is a minor and will accept that”.

Of course, some FSDO experiences may vary, but it would never be ramp checked and it would never be seen unless in a wreck. Safety has some common sense component.


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I installed Hookers front and rear in my old -12. No STC. I don't remember any documentation at all but it may have been mentioned somewhere. Never thought much about it. Wasn't flying it without them! It got looked over by FSDO. All it got was compliments.

The only reason my Cessna's Hookers require an STC is because they're attached with a through bolt drilled into the rear through spar.
 
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This is all that was noted on the 337.

I am wondering if Dakota Airframes came set up for them originally since I end up with on his later models.

If I was going to do anything different I would run the lap belts to the frame and not the pa-18 seat tabs.

When it comes to safety I don’t let feds dictate what I can and can’t do. If I was in your position, and the harnesses are a safety upgrade, do it.

We allow the feds enough goddam influence in our lives and we shouldn’t.


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The only reason my Cessna's Hookers require an STC is because they're attached with a through bolt drilled into the rear through spar.
The rear spar carry through in my Cessna has factory installed plate nuts for this purpose. No drilling necessary.
 
The rear spar carry through in my Cessna has factory installed plate nuts for this purpose. No drilling necessary.

And, those nut plates have been documented to pull out. Might not matter in the end, but that's the reason that BAS went about their mounting a bit different.

MTV
 
The info & links on this page should cover all of your questions.



Hotrod180, They have not answered any part of my very basic question.


Are there any existing approvals for the Hooker shoulder harness in the PA-12?

If you can't or won't determine approval via compliance with the cited policy statement or AC's & regs,
I'd say the only source for the "existing approval" you seek would be from Hooker.
 
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