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Thread: Hooker shoulder harness

  1. #1

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    Hooker shoulder harness

    Are there any existing approvals for the Hooker shoulder harness in the PA-12?

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes K View Post
    Are there any existing approvals for the Hooker shoulder harness in the PA-12?
    Shoulder harnesses can be put in as a minor alteration, just a log book entry. There is an FAA document that states that.


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  3. #3
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Could you please quote the document? I don't doubt you. I just want a record.

    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    Shoulder harnesses can be put in as a minor alteration, just a log book entry. There is an FAA document that states that.


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    wireweinie's Avatar
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    FAR 43, appendix A, paragraph (c) Preventive Maintenance, line (14) 'Replacing seat belts'.

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    Wireweinie, There is a big difference between "Replacing seat belts." and altering the seat belt installation to include additional belts. No FAR43 Apendix A does not support adding a new style style shoulder harness. It only supports replacing the original belts with approved like replacements.

    Dgapilot, would you please tell us the title of the document you are referring to?

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    AC43.13-2B chapter 9.
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    stewartb, Yes, that is a good choice of legitimate supporting data for a field approval submission but does not authorize a alteration as a simple log entry. What I am looking for are existing approvals such as: STC's, PMA's and older field approvals.

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    Read paragraph 1.
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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Don't forget this policy statement issued by the FAA.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Steve Pierce

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    This is so easy - any aircraft manufactured before a recent date - including the PA-12 - can have a logbook entry shoulder harness. It is not entirely clear about the lap strap - I believe TSO is required for them, and Hooker is TSO.

    Maybe replacement is a problem, but if so, remove the old shoulder harness, make a log entry, and then install the new one using the guidance Dave posted. No need for FAA certified webbing - you can use SAE, or any accepted standard.

    This was not always true - I installed shoulder harnesses in the late 1960s, and they were definitely illegal - until the FAA got a bit smarter and encouraged guys like me.
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  11. #11

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    Ok folks. Looks like no direct answer to my question.
    Are there any existing approvals for the Hooker shoulder harness in the PA-12?
    What I am looking for are existing approvals such as: STC's, PMA's and older field approvals.
    So I must assume there are not any.

    Bob,
    any aircraft manufactured before a recent date - including the PA-12 - can have a logbook entry shoulder harness.
    This is true so long as the mechanic follows all of the listed requirements and does not violate any of the restrictions.

    Stev, Thank you for that link. I have been trying to locate that for weeks.

  12. #12
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Okay. Read Appendix A, paragraph (a) Major Alterations, (1) Airframe and show me where adding shoulder harnesses constitutes a major alteration. Seat belts are NOT listed, therefore it is NOT a major mod.

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  13. #13

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    wireweinie, I have been in this business since 1966. I am an A&P, IA and PP. I didn't sign on for a major competition in how to interpret FAA rules. Those three category lists are not all inclusive and leave room for miles of interpretation. Even the many FSDO'S cannot agree on each other's interpretations.

    My original post asked for existing approvals such as STC's and PMA's or older field approvals. Those three type approvals are all I am interested in.

  14. #14
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes K View Post
    Wireweinie, There is a big difference between "Replacing seat belts." and altering the seat belt installation to include additional belts. No FAR43 Apendix A does not support adding a new style style shoulder harness. It only supports replacing the original belts with approved like replacements.

    Dgapilot, would you please tell us the title of the document you are referring to?
    The Policy Statement that Steve posted was what I was referring to.


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  16. #16

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    skywagon8a, Thankyou. Another excellent reference for deciding on a course of action. I did have this one and have reviewed it but all I have asked for here is any copies of past PMA's, STC's and older field approvals that I can review to see how other folks handled the many issues that can make a minor alteration log entry not legal.

    dgapilot, Thankyou for your reply.

  17. #17

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    Wag Aero has an STC. They use a 1/8" steel plate and an AN-6 to mount the harness to the center of an .032 steel tube.

    A FSDO is not supposed to do a field approval for a minor mod. And yes, you can buy TSO shoulder harnesses.

    This is indeed an unusual thread. Highly entertaining.
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  18. #18
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post

    This is indeed an unusual thread. Highly entertaining.
    I just blew coffee out my nose!!!

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    hotrod180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Don't forget this policy statement issued by the FAA.
    The info & links on this page should cover all of your questions.
    I'm no A&P, but I'd prefer to reference the policy statement which is fairly cut and dry,
    vs trying to interpret advisory circulars.

    https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/harness_kits/
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  20. #20
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    When I was ordained a IA they gave me a magic wand , looks similar to a pen, and sent me forth to the world to make airplanes and pilots safer, given this great power I've found it much easier by asking the question is this safe or even much safer and would a reasonable man sign this off with a reasonable amount of supporting data( as presented above) , with a pure heart the force flows over you and the magic wand solves the problem. signed JETI Tom, or is it JET IA Tom.
    I wrote this in good humor to help entertain all, I don't mean anything nasty

  21. #21

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    Bob Turner,
    Wag Aero has an STC. They use a 1/8" steel plate and an AN-6 to mount the harness to the center of an .032 steel tube.
    Wag Aero has no stc'd shoulder harness for the PA-12.

    A FSDO is not supposed to do a field approval for a minor mod.
    I have never seen any FSDO waste time doing a field approval on a minor alteration and I wouldn't expect them to!

    And yes, you can buy TSO shoulder harnesses.
    I've known that all along.

    Hotrod180,
    The info & links on this page should cover all of your questions.
    They have not answered any part of my very basic question.

  22. #22

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    I have a hooker harness in my -12. Standard lap belt in the back.

    I believe they noted it in the 337 when the frame was replaced. I’ll check my logs and let you know how it was worded, if it was at all.




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  23. #23
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes K View Post
    Are there any existing approvals for the Hooker shoulder harness in the PA-12?
    The documents that myself and others posted allow installing any shoulder harness in a PA12, including the Hookers. What more do you need and why?
    Steve Pierce

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  24. #24
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Best quote ever from an FAA inspector:
    “Yeah people get wrapped up in regs” ...in regards to installing better seat belts.

    I’m biased, but I believe the pdf Steve posted clearly defines their typically muddy position of “as a baseline we always want stc’s and field approvals, but we understand that this is a minor and will accept that”.

    Of course, some FSDO experiences may vary, but it would never be ramp checked and it would never be seen unless in a wreck. Safety has some common sense component.


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  25. #25

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    I installed Hookers front and rear in my old -12. No STC. I don't remember any documentation at all but it may have been mentioned somewhere. Never thought much about it. Wasn't flying it without them! It got looked over by FSDO. All it got was compliments.

    The only reason my Cessna's Hookers require an STC is because they're attached with a through bolt drilled into the rear through spar.
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  26. #26

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    IMG_1500.JPG

    This is all that was noted on the 337.

    I am wondering if Dakota Airframes came set up for them originally since I end up with on his later models.

    If I was going to do anything different I would run the lap belts to the frame and not the pa-18 seat tabs.

    When it comes to safety I don’t let feds dictate what I can and can’t do. If I was in your position, and the harnesses are a safety upgrade, do it.

    We allow the feds enough goddam influence in our lives and we shouldn’t.


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  27. #27
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    The only reason my Cessna's Hookers require an STC is because they're attached with a through bolt drilled into the rear through spar.
    The rear spar carry through in my Cessna has factory installed plate nuts for this purpose. No drilling necessary.
    N1PA
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  28. #28
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skywagon8a View Post
    The rear spar carry through in my Cessna has factory installed plate nuts for this purpose. No drilling necessary.
    And, those nut plates have been documented to pull out. Might not matter in the end, but that's the reason that BAS went about their mounting a bit different.

    MTV

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    Doesn't matter. Hooker's STC kit includes the bolt and installation instructions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes K View Post
    The info & links on this page should cover all of your questions.



    Hotrod180, They have not answered any part of my very basic question.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wes K View Post
    Are there any existing approvals for the Hooker shoulder harness in the PA-12?
    If you can't or won't determine approval via compliance with the cited policy statement or AC's & regs,
    I'd say the only source for the "existing approval" you seek would be from Hooker.
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  31. #31

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    I do worry about paperwork. I just got a field approval for a J3 wing tank that was installed 30 years ago in a J4, using the J3 STC. I will be doing another for a Cub that has a double wing tank installation and no header tank using an STC for a standard single tank. It goes on and on - a lot of IAs do not understand how to do major alterations.

    This one baffles me - I have never done an STC for seat belts or shoulder harnesses. I think I filed one for an Atlee rear attachment, but not sure. I may be missing something, but the above posters are experts, and have my respect. I agree with them. Making things more difficult than they need to be is not my plan in life.
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  32. #32
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Don't forget this policy statement issued by the FAA.
    The bottom of page 2 and the top of page 3 says it is a "minor Alteration" as long as there is no welding or drilling involved.
    N1PA
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  33. #33

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    This is worse than facebook. I have known for many years many of the seat belts and harness' can be installed as a minor alteration with just a log entry. I have read all the references listed in these posts. All of which never answer my question. Yet the majority of the respondents on this thread insist on trying to convince me I only need a log entry when they have NO IDEA WHAT HARNESS ARRANGEMENT I am looking at. All I have asked of this group is: Are there any existing Approvals for the hooker Y shoulder harness in a PA-12. I went on to clarify that by stating I am only looking for STC's PMA's and field approval copies, OLD OR NEW. At this point only two respondents have actually understood my request and actually answered my question. I appreciate the intent of these folks but their opinion of FAA rules and Regs was not part of my question.

  34. #34
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes K View Post
    .... when they have NO IDEA WHAT HARNESS ARRANGEMENT I am looking at. All I have asked of this group is: Are there any existing Approvals for the hooker Y shoulder harness in a PA-12. I went on to clarify that by stating I am only looking for STC's PMA's and field approval copies, OLD OR NEW.
    Then perhaps you should clarify exactly WHAT HARNESS ARRANGEMENT you are looking at. How do you wish to attach it to your airframe? You've only mentioned the make of the harness not your preferred method of installation.There are several methods of approval as have been noted in the various references noted. Once we know this perhaps we can help you with more clarity.

    If you wrap a cable around a tubing cluster in the fuselage and swage the ends attaching the shoulder harness to the other end. it is a minor log book entry. If you are welding on a tab to bolt the harness to it will be a major and a field approval.
    Last edited by skywagon8a; 05-17-2019 at 01:12 PM.

  35. #35

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    When the ole boy wads up his -12, runs his head thru the panel and the logs burn up in the wreck, none of this will really matter......I’m not on Facebook but maybe I should be?
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  36. #36

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    I am not looking for more clarity on installation choices and FAA rule interpretations. I am only looking for copies anyone may have of original approvals. The help I am seeking here is not how to my job. It is to see what other folks have used on their STC's and 337's. I am very much aware of how the simple PMA's and non-altered structure shoulder harness is suppose to be entered as a minor alteration and simple log entry. I am not interested in hanging my customer's and the installer's dirty laundry out for the world to review.

  37. #37
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes K View Post
    I am not interested in hanging my customer's and the installer's dirty laundry out for the world to review.
    I'm sorry, but this is exactly what you appear to wish us to do.
    N1PA
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  38. #38

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    Wow. Thickness here is unbelievable. I have had too much joy here. I will now turn off notifications for this useless post. You gentleman have a nice day!

  39. #39
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Gosh. I seem to have missed the party. He’s forgetting they change all the major/minor stuff back in 2003? Lot of stuff used to be major and now is only minor or covered by second part of 43.13 as approved data since 1998......... just cause it was the right answer doesn’t mean the FAA won’t update the rules. Life is MUCH simpler now. Choose your mechanics wisely.


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  40. #40
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    At the risk of being the a%%h0!e, did I miss something?

    Someone asked for previous approvals for installing shoulder belts in a PA 12. It was pointed out that installing them is just a minor mod so log only. FAR's, policy statements, and faa orders were cited. And still the request for approval was pushed. In my mind, minor = log entry = no approval paperwork needed.

    If I have misread this thread, please let me know how. And please show me the regs that go along with it.

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