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Thread: Important Announcement Regarding the 2019 Johnson Creek Super Cub Fly In

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    SJ's Avatar
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    Important Announcement Regarding the 2019 Johnson Creek Super Cub Fly In

    As you may or may not know, the Johnson Creek airport is owned by the Idaho Transportation Department. They are the ones that decide what groups can come together at their airport. This year, as in years past, they sent me an electronic packet of information regarding all the restrictions, rules, and expectations they have for the event.

    Unlike years past, I read everything carefully and passed it along to two lawyers to review. Both independently advised me that signing the fly in agreement with this open ended indemnity clause, “The Group coordinator agrees to indemnify and save harmless the Idaho Transportation Department against any claim, loss or damage resulting from the fly-in”, was strongly discouraged, and that there was no way any one person could indemnify an entire state – or, it turns out, afford sufficient insurance to even make a dent.

    Based on this, I reached back out to the Idaho Transportation Department (thinking that they believed this group was some kind of big commercial enterprise wanting to use their facility) in hopes we could find a path to SuperCub.Org providing the organization, registration, and education for the event to stay within their fly in guidelines. Their response? “You can buy insurance”, which we already do but certainly not at a level that would indemnify an entire state if someone had a serious accident, started a fire that burned up a bunch of airplanes, etc. – not to mention we don’t even have a say about who shows up at the event, since it is a public airport, open to the public.

    Most disappointing about this attitude, is the tremendous amount of money this group has raised over the last fifteen or so years to benefit Idaho aviation – including the Idaho Transportation Department. We have also had a significant positive impact on the local economies in the area and have promoted tourism to an incredibly beautiful state. This decision on their part feels like a rebuff of all of that.

    Now before I start receiving hundreds of emails on how to skin this cat, this did not happen yesterday. I have been talking with other Idaho aviation groups and other organizations to see if they would have interest in being the host of this event. At a minimum, this will not happen this year as most have the same liability concern I have about signing this agreement.

    Because of all of this, I have decided that SuperCub.Org cannot host this event. There will be no registration, t-shirts, schedule, educational emails and videos, and other fly in staples.
    Does this mean you can’t go to Idaho? Of course not. As mentioned before, Johnson Creek is a public airport and you can go camp there anytime you like. The only benefit to signing up with the state is to prevent schedule conflicts, and I know of no major events scheduled at Johnson Creek that weekend. There are lots of folks who go there on Father’s Day weekend unassociated with the events we have held in the past. There are also lots of OTHER public airstrips in Idaho, a few owned by IDT, some by the Forest Service, and some by Fish and Game.

    It is important to point out that in spite of this disappointing turn of events, the Idaho Aviation Foundation raffle is ALIVE and WELL! Once again there will be a huge number of great prizes, many of which do not require your presence to win, and they will likely hold this raffle on Father’s Day weekend as usual. The raffle will be held at Big Creek Lodge on Saturday morning. I believe there will be breakfast served as well. .

    Also it is important to know that the Missouri Breaks Fly In is ALSO alive and well. Laura and I will certainly be at that event as usual. If you have not done the Breaks, it’s high time!

    Thanks

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Gotta love bureaucracy. Liability and the world we live in. I believe this event has been responsible for many people flying to the Idaho back country for the first time, meeting up with more experienced pilots and learning some of the nuances of flying this area. I know I am one of those. Doesn't look like a good thing for the areas that benefit from the commerce of the pilots attending or the safety of flying the area. Sorry SJ, I know you and many others have put a lot of time and effort into this event for the benefit of many others. Your efforts have not gone unnoticed.
    Steve Pierce

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    RVBottomly's Avatar
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    SJ, you are doing the right thing. Sorry to hear of it, though.
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    I love the irony. Instead of limiting the indemnity to a reasonable figure that can be insured against, the State will now have the same risk with no indemnity. You made the right call. Taking on an unlimited indemnity for risks that you can't control is a non-starter. You got good legal advice.
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  5. #5

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    Well crap, guess I need to fly my framed Idaho Aviation chart upside down.
    Last edited by OLDCROWE; 04-30-2019 at 02:44 PM.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

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    Skywagon185's Avatar
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    It's the right choice Steve.
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    Steve, thanks for the effort you put into this obviously complicated decision.
    J
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    I’ll be there.
    Lou
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    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    I am going regardless. Breaks also.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"
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  10. #10
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Is CubCrafters still in?
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

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    SJ,

    Sorry to hear the news. I do, however, agree that you have made the correct choice. I know it wouldn't be the same as Johnson Creek, but there are a lot of airports out there and I assume some states might welcome what you have created.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    Is CubCrafters still in?
    Yeah, we'll likely fly over to see our friends.

    This is disappointing, but I have to tip my hat to Steve. I think he has done everything he reasonably can to hold the fly-in together.
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  13. #13
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Bill Shakespeare was right!



    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Gotta love bureaucracy. Liability and the world we live in. I believe this event has been responsible for many people flying to the Idaho back country for the first time, meeting up with more experienced pilots and learning some of the nuances of flying this area. I know I am one of those. Doesn't look like a good thing for the areas that benefit from the commerce of the pilots attending or the safety of flying the area. Sorry SJ, I know you and many others have put a lot of time and effort into this event for the benefit of many others. Your efforts have not gone unnoticed.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  14. #14
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    I think Steve E should sponsor it. More money than brains!

    Wait! I resemble that!
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"
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    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Would be interesting to attach some names to the Idaho Transportation Department. Bet there aren't many pilots on that board!

    Here they are! I see nothing that resembles a pilot. Does Idaho have an aviation department?
    https://itd.idaho.gov/board/
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

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    "Bill Shakespeare was right"
    Do you mean like the Eagles song--"The more I think about it ol' Billy was right..."?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    Would be interesting to attach some names to the Idaho Transportation Department. Bet there aren't many pilots on that board!

    Here they are! I see nothing that resembles a pilot. Does Idaho have an aviation department?
    https://itd.idaho.gov/board/
    Bob Hoff is an Idaho Icon. Looks like he just got on the board last month. He is the guy to have in our corner as he owns AeroMark FBO in Idaho Falls and hosts the Idaho Aviation Expo every May. He is also a Husky dealer and flys the backcountry extensively in a Husky, Beech Staggerwing and Beech 18.
    Vans RV7 finished 2008
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  18. #18
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    This is precisely why we have grafted recreational flying into our recreational liability statute. It was designed to protect our skiing and rafting industry--both very important to our economy--and shift responsibility back to where it should be. In practice it has worked very well. Idaho will need to be more responsive in crafting a solution to the issue as the economic hit from sponsored events will eventually be noticed. Frankly, the present requirement by Idaho is legally problematic, as the regulation has the effect of legislating out of existence otherwise permissible activity.
    JP Russell--The Cub Therapist
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    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Yep!


    Quote Originally Posted by Carey Gray View Post
    "Bill Shakespeare was right"
    Do you mean like the Eagles song--"The more I think about it ol' Billy was right..."?
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  20. #20
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Johnson Creek is in Valley County. Julie DeLorenzo is the board member for Valley. She is a Realtor. 208-703-4348

    Wonder if she knows about this.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

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    Any amplifying info on the raffle/breakfast at Big Creek? Time, where to buy tickets, etc.? I don’t see any info on the IAF website. Sounds like everything is ops normal for the “un-official” SC fly-in sans a “un-official SC fly-in t-shirt”


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    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Just don't put a year on the shirts.

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    18180's Avatar
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    Too many humans.
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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasater View Post
    I love the irony. Instead of limiting the indemnity to a reasonable figure that can be insured against, the State will now have the same risk with no indemnity. You made the right call. Taking on an unlimited indemnity for risks that you can't control is a non-starter. You got good legal advice.
    Good point, no limit on the number of airplanes attending now either.

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    Steve Pierce

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  25. #25
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    Here’s Idaho’s RUS:

    States’ Recreational Use Statutes
    STATE OF IDAHO
    § 36-1604. Limitation of liability of landowner
    (a) Statement of Purpose. The purpose of this section is to encourage owners of land to make
    land, airstrips and water areas available to the public without charge for recreational purposes by
    limiting their liability toward persons entering thereon for such purposes. (b) Definitions. As used in this section:
    1. "Airstrips" means either improved or unimproved landing areas used by pilots to land, park, take off, unload, load and taxi aircraft. Airstrips shall not include landing areas which are or may become eligible to receive federal funding pursuant to the federal airport and airway improvement act of 1982 and subsequent amendments thereto.
    2. "Land" means private or public land, roads, airstrips, trails, water,
    watercourses, irrigation dams, water control structures, headgates, private
    or public ways and buildings, structures, and machinery or equipment
    when attached to or used on the realty.
    3. "Owner" means the possessor of a fee interest, a tenant, lessee, occupant
    or person in control of the premises.
    4. "Recreational purposes" includes, but is not limited to, any of the
    following activities or any combination thereof: hunting, fishing,
    swimming, boating, rafting, tubing, camping, picnicking, hiking, pleasure
    driving, the flying of aircraft, bicycling, running, playing on playground
    equipment, skateboarding, athletic competition, nature study, water skiing,
    animal riding, motorcycling, snowmobiling, recreational vehicles, winter
    sports, and viewing or enjoying historical, archeological, scenic,
    geological or scientific sites, when done without charge of the owner.
    (c) Owner Exempt from Warning. An owner of land owes no duty of care to keep the premises
    safe for entry by others for recreational purposes, or to give any warning of a dangerous condition, use,
    structure, or activity on such premises to persons entering for such purposes. Neither the installation of
    a sign or other form of warning of a dangerous condition, use, structure, or activity, nor any
    modification made for the purpose of improving the safety of others, nor the failure to maintain or keep
    in place any sign, other form of warning, or modification made to improve safety, shall create liability
    on the part of an owner of land where there is no other basis for such liability.
    (d) Owner Assumes No Liability. An owner of land or equipment who either directly or indirectly invites or permits without charge any person to use such property for recreational purposes
    does not thereby:
    1. Extend any assurance that the premises are safe for any purpose.
    2. Confer upon such person the legal status of an invitee or licensee to
    whom a duty of care is owed.
    3. Assume responsibility for or incur liability for any injury to person or
    property caused by an act of omission of such persons.
    (e) Provisions Apply to Leased Public Land. Unless otherwise agreed in writing, the provisions
    of this section shall be deemed applicable to the duties and liability of an owner of land leased to the
    state or any subdivision thereof for recreational purposes.
    (f) Provisions Apply to Land Subject to a Conservation Easement. Unless otherwise agreed in
    writing, the provisions of this section shall be deemed applicable to the duties and liability of an owner
    of land subject to a conservation easement to any governmental entity or nonprofit organization.
    (g) Owner Not Required to Keep Land Safe. Nothing in this section shall be construed to: 1. Create a duty of care or ground of liability for injury to persons or
    property.
    2. Relieve any person using the land of another for recreational purposes
    from any obligation which he may have in the absence of this section to
    exercise care in his use of such land and in his activities thereon, or from
    legal consequences or failure to employ such care.
    3. Apply to any person or persons who for compensation permit the land
    to be used for recreational purposes.
    (h) User Liable for Damages. Any person using the land of another for recreational purposes,
    with or without permission, shall be liable for any damage to property, livestock or crops which he
    may cause while on said property.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp
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  26. #26
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Sounds like Mile High and a few other strips are back on the agenda!!

    If we are 'unorganized', does that really change anything for us? We all still need to be mindful of our arrival and departure procedures, safety, and being polite. If Idaho big wigs show up and give us grief, we are all Steve Eaton or Tom Ford.

    Keep your head up SJ, not always easy to do the right thing, but good on you for doing that!!

    9AA9 will have the hangar ready next spring if you want to have a fly in here. We have lots of places to land if you like back country flying, from river bars to mountain tops. Bring your A game!
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!
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  27. #27
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    I have had a night to sleep on this. As Tangle mentioned, the fly in can continue as planned. The only change is that it now is the "Unofficial Big Tires and Campfires." No one in charge-no one to blame!

    I plan to give Ms DeLorenzo an earfull!
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

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    These are great folks to do your talking for you, or at least confirm talking points, if so desired. Diplomacy before sending salvos downrange!

    https://idahoaviation.com/about
    https://theraf.org/about-us



    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    I have had a night to sleep on this. As Tangle mentioned, the fly in can continue as planned. The only change is that it now is the "Unofficial Big Tires and Campfires." No one in charge-no one to blame!

    I plan to give Ms DeLorenzo an earfull!
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  29. #29
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    I will use all of my charm!


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyR View Post
    These are great folks to do your talking for you, or at least confirm talking points, if so desired. Diplomacy before sending salvos downrange!

    https://idahoaviation.com/about
    https://theraf.org/about-us
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  30. #30
    SJ's Avatar
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    Folks, it is important to point out that the Idaho State employees and the caretakers have been tremendously supportive of this event when we have held it there. They have provided us firewood, wifi, and visits from safety folks as well as made sure the airport was in great shape for our arrival (courtesy vans, etc). This is a problem at the upper management level.

    I appreciate all your comments and support. This was a very difficult decision for us!

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------
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    dave's Avatar
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    Unbelievable, I look away for 10 minutes and everything turns to crud.
    Physics always bats last.
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  32. #32
    SJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dave View Post
    Unbelievable, I look away for 10 minutes and everything turns to crud.


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    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  33. #33
    centmont's Avatar
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    Bushwheel Awareness Week --> Breaks

    This disappointing, but obviously necessary, decision re: JC 2019 is something that causes all of us to think a little more deeply about flyins. The BREAKS will go on. The Breaks has never had an official sponsor...It has never charged for admission and the Winifred Public Airport and surrounding Missouri River Breaks wilderness strips are all public. Consider the Breaks on the way to a nice camping trip in Idaho the following weekend.... or just to come up and see the last unchanged portion of Lewis and Clark's expedition. More information to follow.
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  34. #34
    centmont's Avatar
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    Dave: You just never read the fine print. What would Idaho do with all those beans if something bad had happened? R
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  35. #35
    RatCub Redux FrankO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    I am going regardless. Breaks also.
    Would it be fair to say that for Johnson Creek, there will be an "unofficial" fly-in that will be attended by many?

  36. #36
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Some of us will be there, rain or shine!

    Quote Originally Posted by FrankO View Post
    Would it be fair to say that for Johnson Creek, there will be an "unofficial" fly-in that will be attended by many?
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"
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  37. #37
    RatCub Redux FrankO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    Some of us will be there, rain or shine!
    I’d like to plan on both, weather permitting.


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    People don't realize all the stuff behind the scenes that takes place to keep these events going. On top of just the needed organization and effort you have these issues to deal with. Ug. Trying to do the right thing is not always possible. In the end it is worse for all. Some rules get so many people at so many levels involved it becomes almost impossible to change them. I hope all who happen to show up by random chance have a great time! Fly safe. This is one that I would like to make one year.
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  39. #39
    sjohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankO View Post
    Would it be fair to say that for Johnson Creek, there will be an "unofficial" fly-in that will be attended by many?
    Yes.
    Idaho drinks more wine per person than any other state in the country.
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  40. #40
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jprax View Post
    People don't realize all the stuff behind the scenes that takes place to keep these events going. On top of just the needed organization and effort you have these issues to deal with. Ug. Trying to do the right thing is not always possible. In the end it is worse for all. Some rules get so many people at so many levels involved it becomes almost impossible to change them. I hope all who happen to show up by random chance have a great time! Fly safe. This is one that I would like to make one year.
    And this gent would know.....^^

    MTV
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