Wheel Landing a 180
- Thread starter Eddie Foy
- Start date
Alex Clark
Registered User
Life Long Alaskan
My heavy J model 180, with Sportman and VGs, seemed to only like 3 points. I could force it to wheel-land, but it was requiring a bit more speed and she did not want to track worth a darn.
I finally figured out ( along with other odd things I inherited) that my main gear were sorely misaligned. A lot. It was not bad on beaches or loose gravel. But in pavement it was far from normal. After re-aligning everything it acts just like any other heavy tailwheel A/C.
Although I will say that my buddy's 1959 C-180 wheel lands like a dream. Mine it more like a wheelbarrow full of potatoes.
I finally figured out ( along with other odd things I inherited) that my main gear were sorely misaligned. A lot. It was not bad on beaches or loose gravel. But in pavement it was far from normal. After re-aligning everything it acts just like any other heavy tailwheel A/C.
Although I will say that my buddy's 1959 C-180 wheel lands like a dream. Mine it more like a wheelbarrow full of potatoes.
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Eddie Foy
MEMBER
South Florida
Mine was also way off. Now spot on. Glass beads that are used for blasting works great between the plates. Used the Grove technique and a bit of trigonometry.
krines
MEMBER
Billings
Broke a tailwheel leaf spring off on my 170 once after a wheel landing thus leaving me stranded out in the middle of nowhere. Got real lucky getting me and plane out before the blizzard hit. Fortunately the rudder was not ripped off. I do everything now to protect my tailwheel.
Dave Calkins
Registered User
Anchorage, Alaska
Some folks here I have held in high regard are not using the wheel landing "tool".
Am I missing something?
Am I missing something?
I always find this fascinating, because no matter how many years or hours someone has, they certainly have varying opinions on landing a tailwheel airmachine.
Every pilot I've trained in a tailwheel has had to be proficient in both 3 point and wheel landings. I ask them at the end which type of landing gave them more of a feeling of positive control in gusty/crosswind conditions, and the vast majority have favored the wheel landing. That's always been my experience, plus my tail tires and springs last longer than most..
I also have noticed that not a lot of people want to spend the time to learn to do consistently nice wheel landings, but I remember as a kid watching the North Air pilots wheeling the DC-3s onto the runway in Whitehorse, and feeling like that was the most beautiful thing in aviation.
Every pilot I've trained in a tailwheel has had to be proficient in both 3 point and wheel landings. I ask them at the end which type of landing gave them more of a feeling of positive control in gusty/crosswind conditions, and the vast majority have favored the wheel landing. That's always been my experience, plus my tail tires and springs last longer than most..
I also have noticed that not a lot of people want to spend the time to learn to do consistently nice wheel landings, but I remember as a kid watching the North Air pilots wheeling the DC-3s onto the runway in Whitehorse, and feeling like that was the most beautiful thing in aviation.
bob turner
Registered User
I do wheel landings - once or twice with a brand new tailwheel pilot, then only after the full stall is mastered. There are occasional gusty conditions where I use a wheel landing to plant the thing, but I still have to get the tail on the ground somehow. My limit in a J3 is around 22 knots direct, and if it isn’t gusty, I can do it 3-point.
Back when I flew it, I would milk off the airspeed and then add power to stabilize it to either low tail or level wheel landing. Hold the power in as necessary to keep straight with rudder,,,I saw it ground looped in high speed 3 point roll out.
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texmex
MEMBER
Hanging Rock, Australia.
All right. I'm curious as to everyones technique of landing a C180 at night. Does it change?
I haven't revisted night circuits in the C180 since I purchased my, new to me aircraft.
I was proficent in them once, 30 years ago. But my memories as a 19 year old, learning to fly at night and doing circuits with my impatient Dad yelling are vivid. Almost nighmare-ish. Back then, as a student pilot our family C180J was a beast.
I remember having about 4,000 hours in the right seat of the B737-300 and discovering the joys of rolling on the aeroplane in the flare. Get into the flare, and push forward. I thought I discovered a fool proof method of landing. It was working beautifully, until it wasn't. If you rolled it on too high a huge rate of descent developed and it thumped. (usual stuff, Captain laughing his head off, girls down the back telling me they didn't wear a sports bra to work)
I feel 3 pointers are the same. If your in bad light, bad vis and landing on a goat track and your 3 pointing your setting yourself up for trouble. If you flare too high a big rate of descent will develop and you'll become a passenger rather then the pilot.
I haven't revisted night circuits in the C180 since I purchased my, new to me aircraft.
I was proficent in them once, 30 years ago. But my memories as a 19 year old, learning to fly at night and doing circuits with my impatient Dad yelling are vivid. Almost nighmare-ish. Back then, as a student pilot our family C180J was a beast.
I remember having about 4,000 hours in the right seat of the B737-300 and discovering the joys of rolling on the aeroplane in the flare. Get into the flare, and push forward. I thought I discovered a fool proof method of landing. It was working beautifully, until it wasn't. If you rolled it on too high a huge rate of descent developed and it thumped. (usual stuff, Captain laughing his head off, girls down the back telling me they didn't wear a sports bra to work)
I feel 3 pointers are the same. If your in bad light, bad vis and landing on a goat track and your 3 pointing your setting yourself up for trouble. If you flare too high a big rate of descent will develop and you'll become a passenger rather then the pilot.
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Eddie Foy
MEMBER
South Florida
At night in a fighter, I killed the sink, held the attitude, retarded the power and let it land. Except in the A-7D. Being a Navy jet, you set 17.5 units AOA and drove it into the ground. Flare to land, squat to pee!
In an airliner, the talking radar altimeter was de bomb!
In an airliner, the talking radar altimeter was de bomb!
Eddie Foy
MEMBER
South Florida
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mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
As far as training a new to the airplane pilot in the 180, and especially the 185, I always start them with 3 point landings. Once they're proficient AND consistent with those, then we start working on wheel landings. Personally, I nearly always wheel land these airplanes, at least in part because to me a good wheel landing is harder to pull off than a 3 point. Not by a huge amount, but enough that I prefer to practice the tail low wheel landing.
But, in ANYthing besides pavement, it's a tail low wheel landing. At 5 foot 8 and shrinking, I can't see much out the front of these things in three point attitude. So, anyplace without nice side markings/runway lights, I want that tail up so I can see what's coming at me.
But, as others have said, I make sure anyone I train in these planes is competent at both types of landing. Then, they can decide what works best for them. Same shoe doesn't fit every foot.
MTV
But, in ANYthing besides pavement, it's a tail low wheel landing. At 5 foot 8 and shrinking, I can't see much out the front of these things in three point attitude. So, anyplace without nice side markings/runway lights, I want that tail up so I can see what's coming at me.
But, as others have said, I make sure anyone I train in these planes is competent at both types of landing. Then, they can decide what works best for them. Same shoe doesn't fit every foot.
MTV
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
There is something in favor of adequately seeing the LZ and its obstacles.
Gary
Gary
bob turner
Registered User
Rolling on a 737 - hah! My first week on the line I was doing that successfully - then my favorite captain told me he'd kill me if he ever saw me relax back pressure just at touchdown, and I never again could bring myself to "roll it on."
Interesting story about that guy - most new F/Os were scared of him. He tried to give me a hard time - I gave it right back to him, and we became fast friends. One day he said "Which legs do you want?" I said "All of them!" He gave them to me - several in the left seat. Great fun!
Interesting story about that guy - most new F/Os were scared of him. He tried to give me a hard time - I gave it right back to him, and we became fast friends. One day he said "Which legs do you want?" I said "All of them!" He gave them to me - several in the left seat. Great fun!
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
Both, or neither, because many airplanes oscillate nose up and down some in that mode.
MTV
cubdriver2
FRIEND
upstate NY
Rob
MEMBER
AZ06
No taildragger stalls in a 3-point attitude. Well, unless they're loaded aft of CG limits, but that's a different topic.
This hurts my feeble brain... but of course that doesn't take much. Were you fishing, or was this an honest faux pas?
'3-point' and 'wheel' landing are terms that describe an airplanes relationship with the ground ie; terra firma, upon touchdown. I haven't met the wing yet, that knew sh!t from shine-ola about where the ground was. I am reasonably certain I can make my wing stall in any angle you ask for in relationship to the ground, including inverted, straight up, or straight down.... Don't think you can get it full stalled in 3-point? slow it up and steepen it up, guaranteed it will do just what you want.
Your first question about where attitudes were in a falling leaf was a better worded question, but even that is tainted by the approach speed to the maneuver, and then changes with each 'fall'.
Having said all that, I know where you are going with this... I just happen to also know that the cure is in the approach path, just like the cure to the visibility issue guy that who don't know how to work their slats run in to...
Take care, Rob
sj
Staff member
Northwest Arkansas
No taildragger stalls in a 3-point attitude. Well, unless they're loaded aft of CG limits, but that's a different topic.
Not true! Lots of them - including the 180, 170, J3, PA18, PA12, and 7ECA will do it just fine with the size tires they came with from the factory. I thought it was interesting that you were all preaching 3pt landings and wondering how you were pulling it off with bigger tires - that is hard to do, thus all you are really doing a tail very low wheel landing.
Better start the thread over, now that we have the facts! :lol:
sj
Eddie Foy
MEMBER
South Florida
If you put it in a 3-point attitude a foot high, it will stall as the speed bleeds off.
No taildragger stalls in a 3-point attitude. Well, unless they're loaded aft of CG limits, but that's a different topic.
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Stall? Or just set up a high sink rate? Two different things.
Landing attitude is all my question dealt with. Go fly next to a plane doing approach to landing stalls and watch the attitude relative to the horizon, which represents a level runway. It wasn't a trick question.
Anyone doing full stall landings on floats? If you need to get into a short lake, how do you do it? Over obstacles?
Anyone doing full stall landings on floats? If you need to get into a short lake, how do you do it? Over obstacles?
n40ff
Registered User
WV
Bingo! There is indeed a difference between full stall and 3-point in many aircraft but in my experience mostly (if not only) in E-AB aircraft, except maybe in certified with larger tires as suggested here. I haven't flown many certified aircraft of late but as I recall all of them had no trouble to stop flying in 3-point attitude.(haven't tried with bigger tires) On the contrary almost all of my E-AB aircraft will drag their tail if you try for a full stall landing. They simply have a too short gear at least in their initial configuration. I have pictures of my Spezio dragging it's tail with the main gear almost a foot off the ground but can't find them. It's a pussy cat if landed 3-point but might be problematic if you try to full stall it........
FWIW
(of coarse this has nothing to do with wheel landing a C180)
Stall occurs at critical angle of attack. Has nothing to do with angle relative to the ground. Stall doesn’t necessarily mean a pitch change, just that as you reach critical spa, any farther increase in spa results in decreased Cl. Depending on the geometry of the gear, the airplane could be sitting either below or above critical angle (assuming the forward motion is parallel to the surface). Lots of airplanes sit at lower that critical angle while on the ground (one reason a stock TriPacer can get off the ground faster than a stock Pacer).
The objective in a 3 point landing is to touch down at the slowest possible speed. A wheel landing requires greater speed than a 3 point. I’ll agree, I never considered damage from rough terrain on the tailwheel as one of the reasons for wheel landings. That said, I also remember many years ago doing a wheel landing (and taxi in on the mains) when I had a flat tailwheel tire on a 180 to keep from damaging the wheel.
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The objective in a 3 point landing is to touch down at the slowest possible speed. A wheel landing requires greater speed than a 3 point. I’ll agree, I never considered damage from rough terrain on the tailwheel as one of the reasons for wheel landings. That said, I also remember many years ago doing a wheel landing (and taxi in on the mains) when I had a flat tailwheel tire on a 180 to keep from damaging the wheel.
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