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Wheel Landing a 180

I have to agree with Bob,s logic on the tires. I would say sidewall stiffness/PSI can have as as much effect as size. A soft bushwheel can try to tuck under and the Cessna gear can want to follow. Even on a cub a 3 psi bushwheel will get mushy when you try to run on one wheel. Much better at 6-8 Psi. Hopefully we can get the 31 inch Desser STC soon. I prefer to wheel land, I would argue you have more control due to the better visibility and braking action. Go taxi down the entire length of the runway with the tail down at landing speed, then do it with the tail up, see which you like better.
DENNY
 
As far a wheel landings go I'm with dga and others on the dark side. My first tail wheel experience was in a O1D(L19) in a military flying club as a 200 hour spam can pilot. It was fresh from a IRAN with new engine and was my personal airplane(almost) for a couple 100 hours until I got stupid and bought an airplane(C120). This was before tail wheel endorsements. My CFI was an old AF IP taught me wheel landings because they were part of my education but stressed that they served no practical purpose in most aircraft, BUT that they really served to make you become "one" with the aircraft, especially the Cessna's. I don't have tons of time like many of you but almost all of it has been in tail draggers from cubs, Pitts etc........and while practicing wheel landings will sharpen your skills, when the wind blows hard enough to scare me I'm 3-point all the way. That said I still do an occasional wheelie.......at least one a year. (BTW, been in a 180 once when I was 6 sitting on dad's lap and it was on floats)
 
bob turner said:
You guys are ignoring basic physics. First recognize how easy it is to move a 180 on level pavement with 8:00s at 35 psi. Then try the same trick with any big tire at 8 psi. If you don't notice a vast difference you are delusional, and the rest of my argument will make no sense.

A crosswind does not affect you until the first wheel touches down. At that point, the wind wants to turn the aircraft - assuming you touched down going straight. Also the tire you touch down on wants to turn you in the same direction. Both of these forces are overcome by top rudder. A large soft tire will simply want to turn you with much more force. That limits your crosswind capability - at least until you get the other main on the ground and apply brakes on that side.

The 180 with hard 8:00s can handle 25 kts direct crosswind. That is practically full control authority. Add drag in the wrong direction and your crosswind capability decreases.

For once, not opinion.
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Uh, Bob, a tire touching SHOULD fix the plane to the surface. When you put a tire down, I want it to stick. A 29 at 5 psi will stick well, and I can work the plane around that tire. Yes, it imparts a bit more force on the plane to spin up a Bushwheel vs an 8.00, but that’s momentary. Where the 8.00 at 35 psi will skid, that Bushwheel stick, and gives you control. If the plane is still a bit light due to a gust, I don’t want skidding to start. The Bushwheel hangs on.

Thats my theory. You have to deal with the yaw imparted by the one wheel touch either way, and the Bushwheel causes a little more yaw for a split second, but if you can’t manage that, you need to go somewhere else. But once that big tire is on, it’ll hold you.

MTV
 
stewartb said:
Long approaches, short approaches, steep over obstacles in a raging crosswind..... always 40* flaps. Always the same speed. If you're bouncing landings you probably need to do more slow flight to learn to trust the airplane. Learn how to bring it in steep with power off and shallow with power on. And everything in between. The gear isn't responsible for bouncing.
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Stew,
Is your technique when landing in "raging x-winds" ( I am assuming thats
something over 20kts?) To ALWAYS make your approach and land a Skywagon with/ 40* \ of flaps ???
Can you elaborate on why that would be your technique ? Would the effect of having that much flap down in high
wind situations not raise your risk of the airplane to pivot off the tire; and
"weathervine" you back into the wind?? ...
When I got checked out in the 185 back in 1970's it was with the Fish & Wildlifes Chief Pilot, who told me he had acquired,15K hours in Skywagons; (Andy Stinson) that started flying Skywagons the first year they came out 1953.....
He taught to land in ANY wind over
15kts Xwind:
To land the 185 on one wheel, and hold it on one wheel until the aileron wont hold it anymore; with
NO FLAPS.......[emoji15]





Sent from my LM-X210 using SuperCub.Org mobile app
 
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To land a Skywagon with no flaps requires either an unusually high AOA or higher than normal speed. Neither suits me for landing in challenging wind conditions. I prefer to mimimize the horizontal component of the landing. That’s best done with flaps.
 
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Eddie Foy said:
Did eight wheel landings today with a 10 kt right cross. No bad ones and three greasers. It's coming. 10 hrs in the plane so far.

Slightly heavy yoke and relax back pressure when it touches.

Brakes are light years better than the Cub. New ABI units and overhauled masters.
Click to expand...
Did you get the new engine broken in already?
 
stewartb said:
Long approaches, short approaches, steep over obstacles in a raging crosswind..... always 40* flaps. Always the same speed. If you're bouncing landings you probably need to do more slow flight to learn to trust the airplane. Learn how to bring it in steep with power off and shallow with power on. And everything in between. The gear isn't responsible for bouncing.
Click to expand...

Read This, IMHO this post sums everything you need to know about landing a skywagon. If at the end of the day you're not landing sweetly, Read it again.

Contrary to what else I am reading here, I think the 180/5 are really pussycats, and I think they land quite sweetly. If it isn't, you just need to spend a little more time on it. When I have not flown mine for a month or two, it takes me a few shots at it to get back in the game, and I fly largish T/W airplanes virtually every day. That doesn't mean the airplane is challenging, it just means I'm not as proficient in it as I could be.

I am an always full flapper, and wind has never been reason enough for me to change that. Training / playing are about the only reasons I can see that I'd purposefully land my airplane faster than it could be landed. After all, sooner or later you are going to have to deal with slowing it down to a complete stop, regardless of where your flaps are. Why not make the bulk of your landings done in the slowest possible configuration, there by making the bulk of your experience there? If you are concerned about landing in any configuration, that infers you are concerned about a boo-boo. Why not make that boo-boo as slow as you possibly could?

I also don't see any point in muddying this post with tire size. If you can't land a Skywagon sweetly on Bushwheels, you need more dual. Period. And preferably from someone who has been there done that. A 180/5 on big tires is pretty close to the bottom of my list of challenging airplanes to fly/land. In fact I'd say it's almost cheating. That's not meant to be condescending, or to suggest I am an extraordinary pilot. In fact I am very average at best. Proficient? yes, talented? not so much. This is just my honest opinion of the airplane.

Lastly, I don't prefer to land an airplane with it's tail proudly flying like a kite (not really landing, but driving it on), however, I can understand why someone might want to perfect that. SIMPLE.... because he wants to MASTER that wing. He wants to OWN it. I say Kuddos to the guy who sees a deficiency and wants to polish on it, regardless of who else lands there airplane in that configuration.

Take care, Rob
 
dgapilot said:
So the real question is why? I’ve never had the desire or need to do wheel landings beyond meeting the FAA requirements when training a new tailwheel pilot.
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Someone else might ask "why 3 point"?
Personally I almost always wheel land my 180 on pavement,
and almost always 3-point on grass or dirt.
Both with flaps 40.
Landing in a crosswind, generally I do a wheel landing and generally with flaps 40.​
Touchdown speed is slower with the 3 pointers,
but I can still stop reasonably short wheeling it on.
Esp if I pinch on the binders right away and keep the tail from coming up with elevator.
FWIW I know some guys who ALWAYS 3-point it,
and some other who ALWAYS wheel it on.
Myself, I prefer to be current and proficient at both.
 
Rob said:
Read This, IMHO this post sums everything you need to know about landing a skywagon. If at the end of the day you're not landing sweetly, Read it again.

Contrary to what else I am reading here, I think the 180/5 are really pussycats, and I think they land quite sweetly. If it isn't, you just need to spend a little more time on it. When I have not flown mine for a month or two, it takes me a few shots at it to get back in the game, and I fly largish T/W airplanes virtually every day. That doesn't mean the airplane is challenging, it just means I'm not as proficient in it as I could be.

I am an always full flapper, and wind has never been reason enough for me to change that. Training / playing are about the only reasons I can see that I'd purposefully land my airplane faster than it could be landed. After all, sooner or later you are going to have to deal with slowing it down to a complete stop, regardless of where your flaps are. Why not make the bulk of your landings done in the slowest possible configuration, there by making the bulk of your experience there? If you are concerned about landing in any configuration, that infers you are concerned about a boo-boo. Why not make that boo-boo as slow as you possibly could?

I also don't see any point in muddying this post with tire size. If you can't land a Skywagon sweetly on Bushwheels, you need more dual. Period. And preferably from someone who has been there done that. A 180/5 on big tires is pretty close to the bottom of my list of challenging airplanes to fly/land. In fact I'd say it's almost cheating. That's not meant to be condescending, or to suggest I am an extraordinary pilot. In fact I am very average at best. Proficient? yes, talented? not so much. This is just my honest opinion of the airplane.

Lastly, I don't prefer to land an airplane with it's tail proudly flying like a kite (not really landing, but driving it on), however, I can understand why someone might want to perfect that. SIMPLE.... because he wants to MASTER that wing. He wants to OWN it. I say Kuddos to the guy who sees a deficiency and wants to polish on it, regardless of who else lands there airplane in that configuration.

Take care, Rob
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Pretty much. Nothing to do with bounce, but I might add that if the gear isn’t aligned, they can be a little temperamental. We had one that spent its life on floats. The shop threw it on gear right before we got it without putting it on greased plates. It was a handful until we got it aligned right. Something to check if a person is really fighting ground handling.

Great airplane, the one that put Cessna on the map.
 
Never felt a need for wheel landings
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I fly off a narrow airport that has trees about 50 feet away along the sides with a gap or two. When the wind is blowing across it must roll and I bet you could not make a slow 10 foot pass above the runway and not be up and down. I wouldn't think of trying to stall it on. With my luck I might touch down just to be shot 20 feet in the air just to be dropped again.
 
Both landing types have their application, or one of them would not exist. Most people who do 3pt landings exclusively don't do 3pt take offs exclusively, they do wheel take offs (i.e. tail up, mains on). While one might argue that doing one thing well is better than being average at several things, it's worth practicing and knowing 3pt take offs and landings, and wheel take offs and landings. If you fly long enough to enough different places you will encounter a situation where all four of these techniques will be useful.

In my opinion...

sj
 
My observation.

My Dad, who has 30,000hrs always does tail down take-offs. And mostly does wheel landings.

Me.

Flying a C180 is a hobby for me, but I let the tail rise when it's ready without pushing the stick forward, and practice both styles of landings. If it's gusty, wheel it on.
 
FYI,

Compare book stall speed with 20 flaps vs stall speed with 40 flaps. Not much difference, but LOTS of difference in drag.

MTV
 
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I'm guessing you meant 40*? It isn't always about stall speed. I can fly my final leg a lot steeper with flaps 40 than flaps 20 and maintain a much better attitude while doing it. The transition from light-on-the-mains to heavy is as simple as dumping flaps. Like I said earlier, minimize the horizontal component. It makes life much easier. Eddy should experiment with making his turn to final higher than normal and flying his final leg at 65mph with full flaps. Wheelers are easier it that configuration. Drop in, round out, push the yoke forward with the first touch. Retract flaps and the tail drops. Flight over.
 
mvivion said:
FYI,

Compare book stall speed with 20 flaps vs stall speed with 20 flaps. Not much difference, but LOTS of difference in drag.

MTV
Click to expand...

Hi Mike. I *think* you meant flaps 20 vs flaps 40. If so, I'd say yep.... and THAT is why I am primarily a full flapper all the time. Because that extra drag allows me to carry a touch more power without a speed or pitch penalty. More power means more tail. A good thing when I've got it all hanging out.

YMMV

Take care, Rob
 
Glad I didn’t know this debate existed back when I was working 180’s and 185’s for a living..... used both “types” of landings on a regular basis.... didn’t make sense to make a wheel landing on a soft beach. Likewise didn’t seem sensible to beat the tail up unnecessarily on a really rough strip. If memory serves me, I could land as short as I needed to either way.. but that’s just me....
 
I agree with everything but the last statement. In a taildragger, the flight ain't over till you are tied down. I noticed yesterday that taxiing with a 10 kt left cross took full right rudder. And yes, the gear is aligned spot on.

stewartb said:
I'm guessing you meant 40*? It isn't always about stall speed. I can fly my final leg a lot steeper with flaps 40 than flaps 20 and maintain a much better attitude while doing it. The transition from light-on-the-mains to heavy is as simple as dumping flaps. Like I said earlier, minimize the horizontal component. It makes life much easier. Eddy should experiment with making his turn to final higher than normal and flying his final leg at 65mph with full flaps. Wheelers are easier it that configuration. Drop in, round out, push the yoke forward with the first touch. Retract flaps and the tail drops. Flight over.
Click to expand...
 
That's an old cliche. You can taxi a Skywagon in 30-35 mph winds with no worries. You'll find that while Cubs can do cool stuff in benign conditions? Skywagons can go out when the Cubs stay home.
 
Yes, sorry, I meant compare 20 flaps to 40 flaps. My POINT was the stall speed difference, which was emphasized in an earlier post, is negligible. But, drag difference is huge.

And, there are times in my experience, when LOTS of drag is a negative. Yes, drag helps you descend at a steeper gradient. That's not the point. That drag can also mess with you in GUSTY conditions. There are winds, and there are gusty winds. And, tons of drag are not necessarily the best in SOME conditions.

Point is, Cessna gave you the option to use all the tools, meaning you can use whatever flap setting you like, and there are times when 20 flaps works really well.

MTV
 
And what cliche would that be? Even if you can taxi in those winds you still have to do some of that pilot stuff.

stewartb said:
That's an old cliche. You can taxi a Skywagon in 30-35 mph winds with no worries. You'll find that while Cubs can do cool stuff in benign conditions? Skywagons can go out when the Cubs stay home.
Click to expand...
 
One condition taught me (but may be not the same experience for others) not to use full flaps in a crosswind....like when on wheel skis. I prefer to crab into the crosswind then when near earth straighten out, drop the upwind wing slip very briefly while planting the upwind tire or ski if down. In that condition I want full rudder control to maintain direction and nothing messing with the airflow over the stabilizer and elevator to suddenly change the deck angle.

Flaps and skis can change things quickly and even brief slips on wheel skis with full flaps can be an eye opener and are/were placarded against. I could never get 40 to work as well as 10-20 flaps in that configuration. And if going around due to a balked landing 20 flaps is one less item to deal with.

Gary
 
King Brown said:
I'm with dgapilot/turner opinions. Never felt a need for wheel landings.
Click to expand...
What kinds of strips are you flying to/from? Many of us are landing in tight, short, bouncy areas that require keen reference visibility upon landing, plus preservation of the tailwheel.
Bounce a tailwheel along on some of the river bars, etc. at landing speeds and see how long it lasts...
 
I often raise the tail after a 3-point landing, although not in 180s. I have a lot of respect for the 180, and it would kill me to take one into conditions where damage was likely.

And yes, tailwheels don’t like rough stuff. We have steel plates across a main taxiway, and twice I have had tailwheel flats there! I go for a couple years with no flat tailwheels, then I get one right after another. Yeah, I keep them at 50 psi.
 
I want to thank everyone who replied. 0.7 today and 5 landings. All three pt, without landing tailwheel first, near full stall and acceptable. 10 kt crosswind. It's coming. 12 hours now and more comfortable.

The Horton STOL and VGs don't want to give up.
 
Had 1000 hours in my 170 and then got a cub. Wheel land most of the time. Was astounded at how much time it took me to get up to snuff in the cub. Different stall speeds. Different attitudes. Different head height above ground. Oh and where the hell are the brakes on this thing. Never came close to looping the 170 but the cub took me on an excursion into the grass pretty quick. Took a while but eventually I figured it out. Have fun.
 
JohnnyR, I have 6,000 hours mostly 180-185s on wheels and wheel-skis on dirt 800-1000 foot strips, my home strip same with wild winds on the coast. Proper descent, crabbing to touch down, familiar with full aileron and rudder, no-sweat crosswinds with white caps on the water. Planting within 30 feet or go-round was necessary on home strip, and I think experience with full rudder/aileron, full confidence in their use, is key. No dings 62 years full-stall landings. There's no dirt in a 180-185 if you're paying attention.
 
I hear ya, but I'm talking about the kind of surface that encourages one to keep the tail off the deck until slowest speed possible - as in off-airport w/ rocks, gopher holes, driftwood, big washboard, etc. Things that rip tw’s off or create destructive stress on airframes. That stress can be moderated by rolling across on big mains until moving slowly enough that the tailwheel comes down to encounter much reduced energy forces.

Not saying you're wrong for where you are. 3-pt or wheelie - just depends on the mission. A pilot should be proficient in both to have the tools in the toolbox for when they are needed. If you don't "need" the wheel landings, then good on ya.

The usage of big fat squishy tires has changed things for the better for off-airport landings. Why go backwards in capability and self/aircraft preservation by whacking a small, vulnerable tailwheel through hell just because three-points are how you’ve always done it? (Unless you’re going to stay on mild/moderate surfaces, then have at it!). River bar below is mild when done on 29's and wheeled on, but even these small stones drag considerably if a stock tail is let down too soon.

image1 (3).jpeg

King Brown said:
JohnnyR, I have 6,000 hours mostly 180-185s on wheels and wheel-skis on dirt 800-1000 foot strips, my home strip same with wild winds on the coast. Proper descent, crabbing to touch down, familiar with full aileron and rudder, no-sweat crosswinds with white caps on the water. Planting within 30 feet or go-round was necessary on home strip, and I think experience with full rudder/aileron, full confidence in their use, is key. No dings 62 years full-stall landings. There's no dirt in a 180-185 if you're paying attention.
Click to expand...
 

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