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Thread: Wheel Landing a 180

  1. #81

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    No taildragger stalls in a 3-point attitude. Well, unless they're loaded aft of CG limits, but that's a different topic.
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    No taildragger stalls in a 3-point attitude. Well, unless they're loaded aft of CG limits, but that's a different topic.

    This hurts my feeble brain... but of course that doesn't take much. Were you fishing, or was this an honest faux pas?

    '3-point' and 'wheel' landing are terms that describe an airplanes relationship with the ground ie; terra firma, upon touchdown. I haven't met the wing yet, that knew sh!t from shine-ola about where the ground was. I am reasonably certain I can make my wing stall in any angle you ask for in relationship to the ground, including inverted, straight up, or straight down.... Don't think you can get it full stalled in 3-point? slow it up and steepen it up, guaranteed it will do just what you want.

    Your first question about where attitudes were in a falling leaf was a better worded question, but even that is tainted by the approach speed to the maneuver, and then changes with each 'fall'.

    Having said all that, I know where you are going with this... I just happen to also know that the cure is in the approach path, just like the cure to the visibility issue guy that who don't know how to work their slats run in to...

    Take care, Rob
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    No taildragger stalls in a 3-point attitude. Well, unless they're loaded aft of CG limits, but that's a different topic.
    Not true! Lots of them - including the 180, 170, J3, PA18, PA12, and 7ECA will do it just fine with the size tires they came with from the factory. I thought it was interesting that you were all preaching 3pt landings and wondering how you were pulling it off with bigger tires - that is hard to do, thus all you are really doing a tail very low wheel landing.

    Better start the thread over, now that we have the facts!

    sj
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  4. #84
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    If you put it in a 3-point attitude a foot high, it will stall as the speed bleeds off.


    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    No taildragger stalls in a 3-point attitude. Well, unless they're loaded aft of CG limits, but that's a different topic.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  5. #85
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    If nothing else, this thread proves the old adage about opinions. Everyone's stinks but their own!
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"
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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    If you put it in a 3-point attitude a foot high, it will stall as the speed bleeds off.
    Stall? Or just set up a high sink rate? Two different things.
    N1PA
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  7. #87

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    I wish that I could be at the [unofficial] Johnson Creek pow-wow this year so I could observe firsthand the bourbon-fueled continuation (Conclusion? Unlikely!) of this …
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  8. #88

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    Landing attitude is all my question dealt with. Go fly next to a plane doing approach to landing stalls and watch the attitude relative to the horizon, which represents a level runway. It wasn't a trick question.

    Anyone doing full stall landings on floats? If you need to get into a short lake, how do you do it? Over obstacles?

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    Not true! Lots of them - including the 180, 170, J3, PA18, PA12, and 7ECA will do it just fine with the size tires they came with from the factory. I thought it was interesting that you were all preaching 3pt landings and wondering how you were pulling it off with bigger tires - that is hard to do, thus all you are really doing a tail very low wheel landing.

    Better start the thread over, now that we have the facts!



    sj
    Bingo! There is indeed a difference between full stall and 3-point in many aircraft but in my experience mostly (if not only) in E-AB aircraft, except maybe in certified with larger tires as suggested here. I haven't flown many certified aircraft of late but as I recall all of them had no trouble to stop flying in 3-point attitude.(haven't tried with bigger tires) On the contrary almost all of my E-AB aircraft will drag their tail if you try for a full stall landing. They simply have a too short gear at least in their initial configuration. I have pictures of my Spezio dragging it's tail with the main gear almost a foot off the ground but can't find them. It's a pussy cat if landed 3-point but might be problematic if you try to full stall it........

    FWIW

    (of coarse this has nothing to do with wheel landing a C180)

  10. #90

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    Stall occurs at critical angle of attack. Has nothing to do with angle relative to the ground. Stall doesn’t necessarily mean a pitch change, just that as you reach critical spa, any farther increase in spa results in decreased Cl. Depending on the geometry of the gear, the airplane could be sitting either below or above critical angle (assuming the forward motion is parallel to the surface). Lots of airplanes sit at lower that critical angle while on the ground (one reason a stock TriPacer can get off the ground faster than a stock Pacer).

    The objective in a 3 point landing is to touch down at the slowest possible speed. A wheel landing requires greater speed than a 3 point. I’ll agree, I never considered damage from rough terrain on the tailwheel as one of the reasons for wheel landings. That said, I also remember many years ago doing a wheel landing (and taxi in on the mains) when I had a flat tailwheel tire on a 180 to keep from damaging the wheel.


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  11. #91

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    Thanks for that reply. So you think a three point is the slowest landing? I'd say that you have excessive speed if your elevator can keep your nose up. If a guy is really on his game his touchdown happens at the moment the tail gives up, and in that scenario the tail doesn't stay down so 3 point isn't available. Actually, in Cubs anyway, the best pilots I know gauge their final approach speed by elevator effectiveness. If they can raise the nose they're going too fast.

    The counterpoint to that is if you have aft CG, and then the tail drops out before the wing stalls, and then you're just along for the ride.

    VGs and other lift accessories promote flatter attitudes at slower speeds. I'm a fan.

  12. #92

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    If your supercub/180 wing is at "FULL STALL" (no lift) in the three point attitude why does everyone bother with tie down ropes Just saying.


    To land slower with a wheel landing than a 3 point simply leave power on, ,flair with the tailwheel a foot or more below the main this will allow you to fly slower than a three point attitude. Now just before the tailwheel touches release stick/yoke or dump flaps and roll it on the mains. I have trouble with the simply part of this advice quite often.
    DENNY
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  13. #93
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    I land my cub purely by the tactile feel of the elevator. And on several other aircraft it is also my barometer for lift off. I am also a 'throttle jockey'.
    So... pretty much loved that post... right up to the point of reading 'loaded so far aft the tail drops out before the wing stalls '
    Just the thought of that hurts my brain. I guess that would be one way to 3-pt on big wheels.

    I am also of the opinion (perhaps incorrectly) that in my cub, when I can no longer raise the nose, it is not because the tail has quit, but rather because the wing has. Probably very much the opposite on a cub with a heavily modded wing and stock tail.

  14. #94

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    Wheel Landing a 180

    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Thanks for that reply. So you think a three point is the slowest landing? I'd say that you have excessive speed if your elevator can keep your nose up. If a guy is really on his game his touchdown happens at the moment the tail gives up, and in that scenario the tail doesn't stay down so 3 point isn't available. Actually, in Cubs anyway, the best pilots I know gauge their final approach speed by elevator effectiveness. If they can raise the nose they're going too fast.

    The counterpoint to that is if you have aft CG, and then the tail drops out before the wing stalls, and then you're just along for the ride.

    VGs and other lift accessories promote flatter attitudes at slower speeds. I'm a fan.
    Critical aoa is the highest Cl for the airfoil section. That means that the slowest speed that will support the aircraft is with the wing at critical aoa. Any other aoa by definition requires a higher speed.

    Tail effectiveness is a function of decolage, the difference in aoa between the forward lifting surface and the aft lifting surface. The tail, by design, for stability, will be at a lower aoa than the wing. If you are loosing elevator authority, you are either loaded too far aft, or the design has insufficient decolage. That is a stability and control issue, not a speed or lift issue.


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    Last edited by dgapilot; 05-01-2019 at 11:31 AM.
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  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    If your supercub/180 wing is at "FULL STALL" (no lift) in the three point attitude why does everyone bother with tie down ropes Just saying.


    To land slower with a wheel landing than a 3 point simply leave power on, ,flair with the tailwheel a foot or more below the main this will allow you to fly slower than a three point attitude. Now just before the tailwheel touches release stick/yoke or dump flaps and roll it on the mains. I have trouble with the simply part of this advice quite often.
    DENNY
    Denny, your assumption of full stall being no lift is totally incorrect! The stall begins at critical angle of attack, which is where the wing produces the greatest amount of lift for any given airspeed.


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  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgapilot View Post
    If you are loosing elevator authority, you are either loaded too far aft, or the design has insufficient decolage. That is a stability and control issue, not a speed or lift issue.


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    This is what I was alluding to in my example of a modded wing and stock tail. And perhaps it doesn't take much mod at all, as it is pretty easy to make a cub fly with minimal elevator authority.

  17. #97

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    I feel like the dumbest member here, maybe because no one told me the 180 was different from any other taildragger. On takeoff, a little pressure right rudder, let it fly off, no push on the yoke. Landing full-stall always, keep it straight, relax chocks in place. Daylight or lights, peripheral vision the same. A lot easier than my starter BC12D.

  18. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob View Post
    This is what I was alluding to in my example of a modded wing and stock tail. And perhaps it doesn't take much mod at all, as it is pretty easy to make a cub fly with minimal elevator authority.
    A 3 point landing is not a full stall. It's just an established attitude with a descent and the ground gets in the way. If it was a full stall the nose would drop. Whether that's a function of wing or tail doesn't matter in this context. Maybe I have the semantics wrong. I'm not a book smart pilot. I just drive airplanes.

    And to throw a wrench in my own thoughts? I'm not a big fan of hanging on the prop at high AOA for landings, so there's that.
    Last edited by stewartb; 05-01-2019 at 01:30 PM.

  19. #99

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    Going technical, huh?

    The C-180 and most Cubs are landed 3-point with the elevators at the UP-stop prior to touchdown. I think that is what is meant by full stall, in this context. The nose doesn’t drop (at least not noticeably).

    Don’t try that in a Decathlon. You will drive the main mounts through the wing. We do wheel landings on all three wheels in the Dec. it is not a short field airplane, although a delightful variant of the Champ.

  20. #100

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    Dgapilot
    Sooo would my tail low wheel landing also be considered a full stall landing?
    DENNY

  21. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by DENNY View Post
    Dgapilot
    Sooo would my tail low wheel landing also be considered a full stall landing?
    DENNY
    Only if it results in the wing being at critical AOA. A tail low (like less than 6” when mains touch) was about the most consistent way to land the Howard, and get it down short. That was about the most unforgiving airplane when landing.


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  22. #102

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  23. #103
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    I make a motion we discontinue the use of "full stall" in this thread, and stick to "3 point landing" and "wheel landing".
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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  24. #104
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    I think the horse is dead!
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"
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  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    I think the horse is dead!

    Oh this horse will rise again if not here somewhere else!
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
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  26. #106
    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    Almost as good as the downwind turn!

    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    Oh this horse will rise again if not here somewhere else!
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

  27. #107

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    I'm a low-time tailwheel pilot (7ECA), and was taught both wheel and 3-point landing techniques during my TW training. My CFI strongly prefers wheel landings (former RV-6 owner), but after the training, I found I was far more comfortable with 3-point landings. But now (roughly 50 TW hours later - much of it pattern work), I find myself gravitating more and more to tail-low wheel landings. Part of it is not liking the stress on the tailwheel in a true 3-point landing, and part of it is just getting more comfortable when the sight picture and knowing exactly where the wheels really are... As Contact suggested (probably in another thread), flying low passes down the runway without touching down helps get that "feel" for the plane.
    Jim Parker
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