Wheel Landing a 180
- Thread starter Eddie Foy
- Start date
Slow it down (they skip like a rock if you try to drive them on fast), trim neutral all the way down final, approach sink rate about 500fpm with a bit of power in, gentle pull back on the yoke over the fence for a 3 count (to partially arrest the sink), yoke back where it was, touch down, and a prompt moderate push on the yoke will give you a tail low wheelie, now add a big smile while your feet do their thing, put the tail down easy and clean the airplane up
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I find that it helps to have a little nose down trim so that you are holding back pressure on the yoke, slow it down and bring it in tail low (tailwheel just a few inches above the ground when the mains touch), with full flaps. When the mains make contact you release the back pressure and and roll up onto the mains. The key of course is to make contact with the ground with as little energy as possible.
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
I liked to secure my left arm from moving too much, either against my chest or nearby support. Same for throttle hand by grabbing the friction lock ring with finger tips and squeeze-unsqueeze to adjust the throttle. Any bounce can move the hands upsetting elevator and throttle adjustments. Forward CG makes it harder to control the tail. Add some temporary ballast aft. The rest is grease it on practice.
Edit: I liked flaps 20 to keep dirty air off the tail.
Gary
Edit: I liked flaps 20 to keep dirty air off the tail.
Gary
PerryB
FRIEND
Chico, CA
That's it. Carrying that bit of power flattens things out and gives you a little more of a fightin' chance to grease it. The second you touch, stick it with a little forward yoke. If you come in cold turkey power off its a much greater challenge in energy management, a one-shot deal. If you blow the flare and bounce, DON'T try to stick it. Yoke it back and milk the wing dry (of lift). It might plop back down with another bounce, but it'll be done flying.
The ol' Cub hides a lot of sins and lets us get away with somewhat sloppy techniques, and will allow us to get a lot farther out of shape before it tries to bite. The Skywagon makes you get your sh** together.
Long approaches, short approaches, steep over obstacles in a raging crosswind..... always 40* flaps. Always the same speed. If you're bouncing landings you probably need to do more slow flight to learn to trust the airplane. Learn how to bring it in steep with power off and shallow with power on. And everything in between. The gear isn't responsible for bouncing.
bob turner
Registered User
Teaching them and doing them properly in the field might be separable, at least at first. When I teach wheel landings we start fast, with power, and go for slower and without power as the student gets better. It takes me an hour to get an experienced Cub pilot to be competent in 180 wheel landings. Not really good, but competent.
I am one of a very few 180 pilots who believes that 3-point takeoffs and landings are more efficient. Most 180 pilots pull two notches of flaps, raise thetail and accelerate to 60, then rotate and climb at 90 until a thousand feet. Makes my performance engineer brain dizzy.
I am one of a very few 180 pilots who believes that 3-point takeoffs and landings are more efficient. Most 180 pilots pull two notches of flaps, raise thetail and accelerate to 60, then rotate and climb at 90 until a thousand feet. Makes my performance engineer brain dizzy.
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Check the sink and roll it on like a B-727. Perfect the three point landings on 8:00-6s before you try the wheelies and move to big tires. You have a lot of learning to do before you go into the rough stuff where the big tires would be helpful. The 8:00s are adequate for most any "airport" turf runway.
hotrod180
FRIEND
Port Townsend, WA
Bill White's article is not necessarily gospel but it is a helluva good place to start.
Practice it as described, then (if required) modify the technique to suit you.
Here's the crux of it:
Attachments
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
Lots of good advice here. One thing I do initially is start them landing with 30 flaps as opposed to 40. That reduces the drag just enough that pitch doesn’t increase the drag as quickly. So work 3 points first with flaps 30. Once that’s done, start tail low wheel landings. I too suggest initially rolling in a bit of nose down trim. Now as you flare, the airplane settles, and at the touch, instead of having to initially push on the home to stick it, you just release that back pressure, and THEN push the yoke forward. That helps to catch the bounce a bit and speeds your response time about a half nano second.
Once you get a handle on things, you can stop with the nose down trim, and start playing with 40 flaps, and 20 flaps. Also, at some point, practice no flap landings, not because you’ll need them, but as a skill building excercise.
mostly have fun. Grass is good to start, but get onto pavement when you start getting the hang of it.
Its a great idea to get dual with an experienced instructor.
And finally, be prepared to be humbled a bit. FantAstic planes, but a lapse on your part can get your attention,
MTV
Once you get a handle on things, you can stop with the nose down trim, and start playing with 40 flaps, and 20 flaps. Also, at some point, practice no flap landings, not because you’ll need them, but as a skill building excercise.
mostly have fun. Grass is good to start, but get onto pavement when you start getting the hang of it.
Its a great idea to get dual with an experienced instructor.
And finally, be prepared to be humbled a bit. FantAstic planes, but a lapse on your part can get your attention,
MTV
sj
Staff member
Northwest Arkansas
Your mileage may vary... :smile:
Lots of good advice here, there is more than one way to skin this cat. Most of the time the springy problems come from trying to force a wheel landing, you still have to flare and arrest the descent rate. You don't need power to do that, but it takes work on your timing. Also, put one (front) wheel down first and it will take the spring out of the gear.
We do plan to be at Gaston's!
sj
Eddie Foy
MEMBER
South Florida
Did eight wheel landings today with a 10 kt right cross. No bad ones and three greasers. It's coming. 10 hrs in the plane so far.
Slightly heavy yoke and relax back pressure when it touches.
Brakes are light years better than the Cub. New ABI units and overhauled masters.
Slightly heavy yoke and relax back pressure when it touches.
Brakes are light years better than the Cub. New ABI units and overhauled masters.
Eddie Foy
MEMBER
South Florida
bob turner
Registered User
I think being proficient at all flap settings and landing/takeoff modes is important. That said, I stress tail low takeoffs and full stall landings.
It takes finesse to get a good wheel landing in a spring steel gear airplane. Finesse is a good thing.
But when I discover that my Cub or Stearman students are doing 90% wheel landings, I insist that they return to 90% full stall. Well, maybe 80%.
I briefly encountered a Husky pilot who was taught 60 mph approaches and wheel landings. He enlisted my aid to figure out why a Husky needed 2000' to land! Easy fix.
It takes finesse to get a good wheel landing in a spring steel gear airplane. Finesse is a good thing.
But when I discover that my Cub or Stearman students are doing 90% wheel landings, I insist that they return to 90% full stall. Well, maybe 80%.
I briefly encountered a Husky pilot who was taught 60 mph approaches and wheel landings. He enlisted my aid to figure out why a Husky needed 2000' to land! Easy fix.
Dave Calkins
Registered User
Anchorage, Alaska
Not a Chevy/Ford thing at all.
Wheel landings are an absolute necessary skill
Dga, I am surprised at you statement.
Three point full stall landing a Skywagon with a 15 knot crosswind on pavement with 29" tires and you will be lost!!
Wheel landings are an absolute necessary skill
Dga, I am surprised at you statement.
Three point full stall landing a Skywagon with a 15 knot crosswind on pavement with 29" tires and you will be lost!!
Haven’t flown with 29” tires, 8.50x6 on 180s and 185s. 8.50x10s on the Howard. Something approaching 8-9000 glider tows with Super Cubs and Pawnees, 600 hours in the Howard in everything up to 28 kt crosswind at 90 degrees. Perhaps about 2000 hours towing signs in L-19s. Never had the need or desire to do wheel landings.
To each their own.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
bob turner
Registered User
I bet soft 29" tires will have you in the weeds with a 15 kt crosswind no matter what kind of landing you make.
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
Nah, in my experience at least, I much prefer big tires in crosswinds. Put upwind tire down, stick it and now use it as the fulcrum to do what you want with the plane.
MTV
Eddie Foy
MEMBER
South Florida
Eddie Foy
MEMBER
South Florida
I agree on the tail low takeoff. Picking the tail up is much harder verses the Cub. I have been letting it fly off when it is ready. The plane is light and leaps off with the 88 prop.
I am starting to develop a flow and feeling more comfortable. It is a great airplane but does not forgive mediocre pilot skills. It demands that you fly it with your best game.
I am starting to develop a flow and feeling more comfortable. It is a great airplane but does not forgive mediocre pilot skills. It demands that you fly it with your best game.
bob turner
Registered User
You guys are ignoring basic physics. First recognize how easy it is to move a 180 on level pavement with 8:00s at 35 psi. Then try the same trick with any big tire at 8 psi. If you don't notice a vast difference you are delusional, and the rest of my argument will make no sense.
A crosswind does not affect you until the first wheel touches down. At that point, the wind wants to turn the aircraft - assuming you touched down going straight. Also the tire you touch down on wants to turn you in the same direction. Both of these forces are overcome by top rudder. A large soft tire will simply want to turn you with much more force. That limits your crosswind capability - at least until you get the other main on the ground and apply brakes on that side.
The 180 with hard 8:00s can handle 25 kts direct crosswind. That is practically full control authority. Add drag in the wrong direction and your crosswind capability decreases.
For once, not opinion.
A crosswind does not affect you until the first wheel touches down. At that point, the wind wants to turn the aircraft - assuming you touched down going straight. Also the tire you touch down on wants to turn you in the same direction. Both of these forces are overcome by top rudder. A large soft tire will simply want to turn you with much more force. That limits your crosswind capability - at least until you get the other main on the ground and apply brakes on that side.
The 180 with hard 8:00s can handle 25 kts direct crosswind. That is practically full control authority. Add drag in the wrong direction and your crosswind capability decreases.
For once, not opinion.
