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Thread: Please help stop E15

  1. #1
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Please help stop E15

    You can add your name to the list of those that prefer not to have 15% ethanol in their gasoline via the link below.

    https://www.votervoice.net/NMMA/Camp...CXtPAp6WNU7EAA
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  2. #2
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    Don't know about E15 but year-round E10 has been a fact of life around here for a number of years.
    Luckily I have a good source of E-zero for my airplane.
    I'm sure Marty will be piping in soon to extoll the virtues of E
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!
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  3. #3
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    I don't have a problem with ethanol gas as long as efree gas is also available at the same station. Your never going to beat the corn lobby so lets make a rule that they have to give you a choice with efree 91 also

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  4. #4
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubdriver2 View Post
    I don't have a problem with ethanol gas as long as efree gas is also available at the same station. Your never going to beat the corn lobby so lets make a rule that they have to give you a choice with efree 91 also

    Glenn
    Corn lobby won’t allow that. It takes away from their sales.
    I get it. With the price of milk in the toilet I’d be selling corn too, but I wouldn’t burn it.


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  5. #5
    G44's Avatar
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    How about E free 87 too!
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    180Marty's Avatar
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    We should go to E30. Been doing that since 2001 in old vehicles----no problem with a 1992 Toyota 4x4 and others. Benzene is one of the molecules oil companies use to get the octane up. Did you see the big chemical fire in Houston a couple of weeks ago and how it wasn't safe to inhale. That was because it was benzene----known to cause cancer. Ethanol is the cheapest, cleanest octane in the world. If you have a spill----big deal.

  7. #7
    180Marty's Avatar
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    You can make ethanol from other stuff than corn. This was on 60 Minutes last January. There is a lot of money hauling waste to a landfill. Virginia, where I grew up is turning into one big landfill because there is money to be made but it could be so much better to stop trashing the state.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/marshal...el-60-minutes/

  8. #8
    180Marty's Avatar
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    Today NY Harbor RBOB( I think that is 84 octane meant to mix with ethanol) is $1.95 and Chicago ethanol is $1.38. If there was no ethanol, the oil companies would probably be pulling the same stunt they did in 1973 with even/odd days.

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    I knew you wouldn't let me down, Marty!!
    Cessna Skywagon-- accept no substitute!

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    Ethanol cannot be put in pipelines, too corrosive. It has to be tankered in which increases prices. It is an absolute disaster for marine use. Phase separation happens in about 30 days and it turns fiberglass fuel tanks to a puddle of jelly that gets sucked into your fuel system. When crude was in short supply it made sense. The world is awash in crude now.
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  11. #11
    180Marty's Avatar
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    Kinder Morgan Energy Partners LP began offering commercial ethanol service along the company's 16-inch pipeline running between Tampa and Orlando, Fla., in November.

    http://www.ethanolproducer.com/artic...rs-may-follow/
    https://www.kindermorgan.com/busines...l_florida.aspx

  12. #12
    Southern Aero's Avatar
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    I hesitate to make a comment on this subject but what the hell............... The addition of ethanol to gasoline is a scam and always has been. It sells more "corn", sells more "gas" and you get to pay more taxes on the "more" gallons you have used. Ethanol itself is a great, renewable fuel and runs great if the engine is set up for it. To mix it with gas is just to get the octane up high enuff so it won't detonate. It allows the enriching of a very low grade of gas to run without detonating. You loose the about the same amount of mileage as the percent of ethanol you put in the gas. You gained nothing but increased the amount of liquid fuel you have used......... sales and taxes. I wouldn't be so opinionated but I worked with the Mother Earth Magazine in the mid to late 70s so I'm quite familiar with ethanol. We did a lot of testing on mixed fuels (called gasohol back then) and straight alcohol down to 160 proof or 20% water. Problem with the lower "proofs" was engines didn't idle well but ran great, ran clean. Just about never had to change the oil. To get the power out of the ethanol engines needed to have almost diesel like compressions and higher timing. Even tho there are less BTUs in ethanol, with the proper set up engine you could actually get better (slightly) mileage than with gas. It was a real soft firing, hi octane fuel, about 105 octane rating. I was a part of building a couple of dual fueled vehicles for MEN mag, a Ford pickup and a Chevy van. The guy I worked with did most of the engineering.............. flip a switch and switched fuels and timing curve............ worked pretty slick, way before computers or fuel injection. We even did some dyno testing at some lab in Ohio. Ultralights were getting popular about that time and someone made the comment that a 2 cycle engine couldn't run on ethanol since all alcohol has some water in it and couldn't mix the oil. So I proceeded to experiment and came up with a modified 2 stroke with an external oil injector from a 250 Yamaha and flew the first "airplane" to ever fly on ethanol as far as I know. It was a POS ultralight but it worked, just wasn't dependable or practical. I used dish soap as an emulsifier to get it to "mix". Static thrust was actually slightly higher on the alcohol than on regular gas. We were at Oshkosh with MEN sometime in the late 70s cooking corn liquor right there and running the truck and van on it promoting alternate fuels. Corn is not a good source for ethanol but I guess we have a lot of it. Its still costs more to produce the ethanol than gas but it is "renewable" but not practical as we couldn't produce enuff for our current way of life. I was in Brazil years ago and many of the cars there, like our rental car, were pure alcohol but problem was they didn't like starting when cold and heaters made very little heat........... good for the warmer climates.

    FWIW
    ......... It doesn't cost any more to go first class! You just can't stay as long.
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  13. #13
    Scouter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboy View Post
    Corn lobby won’t allow that. It takes away from their sales.
    I get it. With the price of milk in the toilet I’d be selling corn too, but I wouldn’t burn it.


    Transmitted from my FlightPhone
    Corn price is worse than milk Pete. Even a major flood thru the midwest river states hardly makes it wiggle
    It cant seem to drag itself above 4 bucks. Marty, we are .85 positive basis, but we still are holding our nose
    nobody is holding a gun at our head to plant the stuff though

    jim


    AY 2019 MAY 2019 Show Price Chart 364'4 -0'6
    JUL 2019 JUL 2019 Show Price Chart 373'4 -0'6
    SEP 2019 SEP 2019 Show Price Chart 381'6 -0'6
    DEC 2019 DEC 2019 Show Price Chart
    391'6
    -0'4 392'2 392'0 392'0 391'2 5,253
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    Back when E-10 was coming to market a few independent testers have tested E-10 from the pump. BMWCCA documented as much as 18% ethanol in E-10 fuel. I expect the blending is more accurate in recent year but that is not proven.

    Should a company chose to not sell gasoline with ethanol in it, it is very much possible since the ethanol is loaded into the tanker after the gasoline has been loaded. Around here there are a few truckers that will not put the ethanol into their trucks and have a pretty good market of independent sales outlets to market the fuel too.
    We also have a few companies that cater to the non-ethanol market. One of these being a chain of convenience stores that has seen monstrous growth over the last decade. Thank you to them.

    An experience I and many others have with older vehicles running ethanol is with rubbers and plastics. The diaphragm in the fuel pump and accelerator harden up causing them to not function.
    I am quite surprised this has not crept it's head into the aircraft world. Maybe it has.
    A second issue is the alcohol is a rather strong solvent, different than what gasoline is, it loosens allot of surface deposits which plug filters as well as settling into low spots such as carburetor bowls.
    I have a number of older cars that have, or lets say had zinc plated fuel tanks. The few that got ethanol in them no longer are plated on the very bottom. I did not expect that.

    I use fuel stored in cans around the house as many of us do, the nice thing about winter is I can flush my storage jugs out real efficiently. Fill the jugs with E-10 and let sit for a month. In the cold weather the jelly that forms settles to the bottom and freezes due to the high water content drawn from the atmosphere.
    I then pour off the gasoline either into another jug or into a vehicle. This leaves a frozen lump in the jug that once removed leaves you with a nice clean container.

    Decades back quite a few boat manufacturers used fiberglass fuel tanks. These were great till ethanol started creeping into our fuels which dissolved the resins the tank was made with. Kind of difficult to replace a pair of 250+ gallon fuel tanks.

    The plastic formulation in roto-molded tanks vary, this includes our fuel jugs, I have has many fuel jugs turn white with a dry surface, they soon are too brittle to trust.
    The case with Ducati motorcycles not many years back about their fuel tanks swelling to the point they were coming off the frame has been well documented. Frustrating for the company in that their replacement tank were made with the same formula of plastic, many owners were quite inconvenienced until tanks made from different material were supplied.

    So yes, I am one that will avoid ethanol use as much as I can.
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  15. #15
    180Marty's Avatar
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    Make sure and read the left column with results also.Click image for larger version. 

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  16. #16
    180Marty's Avatar
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    Here are the numbers of one of the plants I am in. Southern had a good post but had 1970's data. Things have changed. Corn oil is extracted and is a money maker. Energy used is way down and gallons per bushel way up. Corn production isn't even close to back in the 70's. I have done as little as no till plant, spray chemical and fertilizer in 2 passes, and harvest. Over 200 bushels to the acre. I have mixed 2 cycle oil and E10 in October and it was in the sealed plastic jug that sucked in when it was 20 below zero and swelled back up in May. Put it in the Lawnboy and it started on the first or second pull. Notice the word seal(not vented). Jim, we are about 20 cent negative basis on corn. Good farmland is still selling for $14,000 acre. Hard to pay the interest much less the inputs with the crop that is produced. How long would you guess it would take for E10 to eat through the 65 year old aluminum fuel lines and at least 30 some year old seals in the primer and fuel selector. I have a friend that has been doing it since Dec 2006 and still waiting.

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    I can tell you this. I have 4 cars, a boat, two pwc's, and the airplane, plus two diesel vehicles. I have eliminated ethanol from all my gas vehicles (I can buy non ethanol gas)and maint issues have dropped dramatically. In particular fuel and ignition issues.
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    So far so good with occasional hauling of E10 using bush bags. Not in there very long, just shuttlesd. Same with my Nauta brand ferry bladder tank, E10 compliant, but again I don't store it long term. FWIW, I haven't burned a drop of av gas In about 20 years, not one! Meaning this whole mogas thing is of some interest to me.
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  19. #19
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    I keep some of this in the float plane and boat

    https://www.amazon.com/Star-Tron-Enz...30185232&psc=1

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"

  20. #20
    180Marty's Avatar
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    I keep some of this in the float plane and boat
    That's what my ex-bro-inlaw used in his boat on Chesapeake Bay. He used E10 in the twin 175HP Mercury engines. The fuel went in the side so think it was fiberglass tanks but not 100% sure.

  21. #21
    180Marty's Avatar
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    Kinder Morgan performed extensive lab testing to identify measures that would need to be made to prevent the ethanol from damaging its pipe’s steel. Through the testing, Kinder Morgan identified a proprietary additive that prevents the ethanol from damaging the steel. The company also documented all non-steel parts of the pipeline during the lab testing and investigated each non-steel part to assure it’s compatibility with ethanol. Incompatible parts the company replaced included seals, gaskets and other components.

    https://afdc.energy.gov/files/pdfs/k...fact_sheet.pdf

    Wouldn't surprise me if it's the same stuff that is added at the ethanol plants before it gets loaded into the steel rail cars and aluminum semi trailers.
    Last edited by 180Marty; 04-05-2019 at 04:48 PM.

  22. #22
    Scouter's Avatar
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    Jim, we are about 20 cent negative basis on corn. Good farmland is still selling for $14,000 acre. Hard to pay the interest much less the inputs with the crop that is produced



    We hear those land prices over here. I just passed on a 3500 acre deal of the best farmland in the Northeast on the Connecticut river in NH. $10000 per acre. We cant even come close with FritoLay potatoes rotated with grain corn to make that happen

    Jim
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  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by 180Marty View Post
    That's what my ex-bro-inlaw used in his boat on Chesapeake Bay. He used E10 in the twin 175HP Mercury engines. The fuel went in the side so think it was fiberglass tanks but not 100% sure.
    High probability it utilized either aluminum or roto-molded tanks. Aluminum tanks in smaller to mid size boats are 0.090 thick, quite durable and long lasting.
    Boats are not allowed to have any fittings that are not on the top surface of a tank, as such they are not readily designed to "sump" a tank.
    I have a pretty good in hull filter/water separator in the system on the boat I use the most as well as a separate filter before the fuel pumps on the engine. The rare times I put E-10 in the boat I get crap in the carbs. I also have the engine setup great for non ethanol gas. A few years back on a multi day 100+ mile river run I topped off with local gas, With that E-10 it was seizing two cylinders before getting back to the trailer. Bit concerning when the wave crests were over the top of the boat which means I had to be in gear with a running motor while waiting for my rig to be brought to the ramp for loading.
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  24. #24
    180Marty's Avatar
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    Charlie, interesting how bad your experience was in such a short time. I think the bigger boat my ex BIL had was a 27 ft Boston Whaler with the twins. He had a smaller one too. I rode in both that had a steady diet of E10 and they ran fine. He could go 20 miles north to get E0 but didn't feel the need. I don't think he did it but I told him to figure out where the tank vent was and seal it in between use.

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    Normally two strokes are jetted richer than needed. Mine was optimized to perfection when running E0, as in leaner than stock. For performance use a two stroke wants to be lean. But the leaning effects of the ethanol when running the last 30ish miles at speed of a performance river run on a rather cold October day is what got me.
    If it were warmer out the engine might have been happier which it was the day before when the temps were above freezing.
    Interesting thing with that day that I should have paid attention too was the boat was slow on the morning upriver run, as in 15+ mph off pace. It was was when slowing for the last few no wake zones that the engine was dropping cylinders, that got my attention. It did stall twice but refired each time. In two cylinders the pistons and combustion chambers had their share of marks in them from detonation. Pistons nor rings did not hard seize though.

  26. #26
    180Marty's Avatar
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    Sounds like the USA is sending a lot of "power" to the Strait of Hormuz. All the more reason we need to up the ethanol used in this country. Today, June Board of Trade ethanol is 68 cents a gallon less than 84 octane unleaded because of the glut. Not sure why we're over there in the first place since we don't really need to care(let those that need that oil deal with it)----- America is exporting oil and if the Strait was shut our oil should be worth more. Oh, and the price of corn might get better too!!! Win Win

  27. #27
    sjohnson's Avatar
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    "The only good reason for making corn into ethanol is for whiskey."
    Idaho drinks more wine per person than any other state in the country.
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  28. #28

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    So true, ethanol from corn is not a source of energy, it's a wash when you consider the inputs. Ethanol from cane is what Brazil was doing in the late seventies when they didn't have the cash to import oil. It worked cuz they had cane and cars made for E100. We should use just enough corn ethanol to get the octane desired, its safer than MBTE. Above that, its politics. Do we sell a lot of corn to China? If the tariffs cut off that trade, look out. At least 2 states have mandated no E in the high test, not enough is sold to help make quota anyway.
    What's a go-around?

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    Corn is a terrible source for ethanol. Much better to use hemp. Easier to grow and refine, doesn’t take near as much acreage for the same quantity of ethanol.


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  30. #30
    Southern Aero's Avatar
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    dga

    You are right.......... corn is A source for ethanol but not a GOOD source. Sugar beets and cane are the best but it STILL takes more energy to distill the alcohol than the energy you derive from it. When I worked with MEN Mag we even tried to pull a vacuum on a still to enhance distillation. At 23 inches you could get it to distill at just under 100 degrees F if I remember correctly. Would be a good clean fuel if only it were practical to get it.

    Hemp............. now certain versions of that might be fun to burn...............
    ......... It doesn't cost any more to go first class! You just can't stay as long.
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  31. #31
    180Marty's Avatar
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    Southern, is this what you mean about taking more energy than you get back. Ethanol is 76,000 btu's per gallon of about 114 octane. Remember corn oil and distiller's grain are co-products. I bet when you were distilling, you'd be lucky to get 2 gallons per bushel.Click image for larger version. 

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  32. #32
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    So much for no politics on SC.
    They still make Avgas.
    I may be wrong but that probably won't stop me from arguing about it.
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  33. #33
    SJ's Avatar
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    Guys, I agree with S2D this discussion has run it's course, in fact it ran its course in similar threads YEARS ago.

    Thanks

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  34. #34
    wireweinie's Avatar
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    SHHHHH!

    It's Dad! And he sounds REALLY mad!

    Web
    Life's tough . . . wear a cup.

  35. #35
    SJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweinie View Post
    SHHHHH!

    It's Dad! And he sounds REALLY mad!

    Web
    No he sounds tired...

    Sent from my Pixel using SuperCub.Org mobile app
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------
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  36. #36
    Farmboy's Avatar
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    Make sure it's starting about 25:00 for proper effect and to here about "the belt".

    https://youtu.be/u4WxuIYKolc?t=1488
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