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Thread: Turn Barrell size?

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    supercub's Avatar
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    Turn Barrell size?

    What's the proper Turn Barrell size to use on the rudder and elevators? Is it the 10/32 or the 1/4/28? My cables have the 10/32 size, but just eyeballing them, the rod size looks small to me.

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    Turn Barrell size?

    From my photo album of my build.... the big ones came with the kit. They didn’t get used.

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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I assume you are asking about a J3, not a Super Cub? There are no turn barrels on the rudder. Special Piper forks on the elevator. You need the special forks unless you are gonna hack the elevator bellcranks up. Cub Club has the drawings and Univair sells the cables.
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    supercub's Avatar
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    Yes, J-3 but I have a Super Cub elevator system, and I'm using turnbuckles on the rudder instead of the movable tabs.
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    For reference-

    https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catal...urnbuckles.php

    What is the difference between the AN130-8S and the AN130-16S?
    AN130-8S assemblies use 6-40 threaded components, and the AN130-16S assemblies use 10-32 threaded components. The -8S is a smaller diameter and thread size than the -16S.
    Last edited by stewartb; 03-24-2019 at 10:00 AM.

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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    and the answer to your question is the 10-32 size

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    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    If I want to switch to the turn barrels that use the clip, do I have to change the ends with the male threads also?
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"

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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Probably, screwing the next guy that works on it because he has to custom fabricate to match what you did rather than buy a part that conforms to the type certificate.
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    Eddie Foy's Avatar
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    I feel you but it does seem to be a better solution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Probably, screwing the next guy that works on it because he has to custom fabricate to match what you did rather than buy a part that conforms to the type certificate.
    "Put out my hand and touched the face of God!"
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    Are your male threads machined for the clip to slide in? The machined groove indexes to the triangle cut in the barrel so the clip can lock them.

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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Foy View Post
    I feel you but it does seem to be a better solution.
    Solution to what? Two rudder cables the same length with a plate with holes to adjust how far the rudder pedals come back from the firewall. Not a closed loop control system like Aileron's or elevators. Why comucate a simple system?
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    supercub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Probably, screwing the next guy that works on it because he has to custom fabricate to match what you did rather than buy a part that conforms to the type certificate.
    I can assure you, that is not my intentions. I respect you as a cub expert and appreciate your knowledgeable mechanical inputs, but take offense to your unfounded comment. Screwing someone, as you put it, has NEVER been my intention in anything I do.
    Last edited by supercub; 03-24-2019 at 08:14 PM.
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    Turn Barrell size?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Solution to what? Two rudder cables the same length with a plate with holes to adjust how far the rudder pedals come back from the firewall. Not a closed loop control system like Aileron's or elevators. Why comucate a simple system?
    I mean the way piper did it has only lasted perfectly fine for what, almost 80 years? Why re invent the wheel?
    When you buy cables from univair they come tested. Friend has a j3 that underwent an extensive rebuild with new fabricated cables. One rudder came apart on landing, and this year another came apart on taxing. When his mechanic looked at the others, the go-no go gauge didn’t fit. All the swedges were not to spec. There’s a member on here who balled up a cub when a cable let go.


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    Quote Originally Posted by supercub View Post
    I can assure you, that is not my intentions. I respect you as a cub expert and appreciate your knowledgeable mechanical inputs, but take offense to your unfounded comment. Screwing someone, as you put it, has NEVER been my intention in anything I do.
    So you want to use a turn barrel on the rudder. You will need to use the Piper forks that cost about $50 each to fit the rudder bell crank without grinding material off of it. From the questions you have asked here in recent months I have come to the conclusion that you don't know what you are doing and also assume you have no certification to do it either. Sorry but these are my observations and opinions. Having worked on Cubs and Super Cubs rebuilt by people who didn't know what they were doing I have become kind of bias to such practice as have the owners when they recieved the bill. I can see you rebuilding your Cub under the supervision of a knowledgeable mechanic that could advice you to common procedures and practices but it doesn't appear to be the case here. If you ever had someone come inot your shop for you to replace a rudder cable on their Cub only to find out that the guy before you built his own custom cable and now you have to reverse engineer what he did or replace both of them with approved parts so you don't get hung out to dry down the road you might feel differently. Maybe I am being an ass but I can assure you I have become a grumpy ass mechanic because of things like this. They tend to turn simple jobs into snowballs or worse. For instance how do you intend to test these cables that you are manufacturing?
    Steve Pierce

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    supercub's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Steve Pierce;743436]So you want to use a turn barrel on the rudder. You will need to use the Piper forks that cost about $50 each to fit the rudder bell crank without grinding material off of it. From the questions you have asked here in recent months I have come to the conclusion that you don't know what you are doing and also assume you have no certification to do it either. Sorry but these are my observations and opinions. Having worked on Cubs and Super Cubs rebuilt by people who didn't know what they were doing I have become kind of bias to such practice as have the owners when they recieved the bill. I can see you rebuilding your Cub under the supervision of a knowledgeable mechanic that could advice you to common procedures and practices but it doesn't appear to be the case here. If you ever had someone come inot your shop for you to replace a rudder cable on their Cub only to find out that the guy before you built his own custom cable and now you have to reverse engineer what he did or replace both of them with approved parts so you don't get hung out to dry down the road you might feel differently. Maybe I am being an ass but I can assure you I have become a grumpy ass mechanic because of things like this. They tend to turn simple jobs into snowballs or worse

    Amazing how a simple question can snowball out of effect. Sorry I ask questions, I thought that was kinda what these forums were about, to ask questions and share experiences. Do I know what I'm doing? I hope so. I ask questions sometimes to help confirm what I'm doing ( since it's been awhile since I worked on Cubs)........or just to get an answer, or to get others opinions on how to tackle something. I worked in a shop for several years under the supervision of an IA. I've rebuilt 5 cubs over the years, one of which took a "Best Craftsmanship Award" at the Arlington WA flying years ago, I have owned 4 different cubs and have been flying them for 50 years. Yes I have a knowledgeable mechanic overseeing my every move on my project, but sometimes it's easier to ask a question on here, and like I said, you get different inputs on ways of doing things.
    Not sure what I ever said or did to put a burr under your saddle, but I can again assure you I'm not out to screw anyone, and I won't belittle anyone when responding to a simple question. By the way, I'm converting a J-3 to a PA-11, with numerous STC's from Atlee Dodge and other sources. Have been in touch with the local FSDO informing them of my plans from day one of this project also.
    Last edited by supercub; 03-24-2019 at 09:42 PM.
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    Wow. Ask a question over a cup of coffee, get blasted like a criminal. This site ain’t what it used to be. Some community.
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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    Wow. Ask a question over a cup of coffee, get blasted like a criminal. This site ain’t what it used to be. Some community.
    Yea, some of us are just ass holes Stewart but I took the time to explain my opinion. Walk in my shoes and you might see it differently.
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    supercub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    and the answer to your question is the 10-32 size
    Thanks Mike, appreciate the input.
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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    Yea, some of us are just ass holes Stewart but I took the time to explain my opinion. Walk in my shoes and you might see it differently.
    PIPER DIDN'T USE them on ALL models.... some, you must use turn buckles if you want adjustment..... I do.... just because someone screwed up 70 or 80 years ago doesn't mean they are right!!... geesh.. relax little!!

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    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    So you want to use a turn barrel on the rudder. You will need to use the Piper forks that cost about $50 each to fit the rudder bell crank without grinding material off of it. From the questions you have asked here in recent months I have come to the conclusion that you don't know what you are doing and also assume you have no certification to do it either. Sorry but these are my observations and opinions. Having worked on Cubs and Super Cubs rebuilt by people who didn't know what they were doing I have become kind of bias to such practice as have the owners when they recieved the bill. I can see you rebuilding your Cub under the supervision of a knowledgeable mechanic that could advice you to common procedures and practices but it doesn't appear to be the case here. If you ever had someone come inot your shop for you to replace a rudder cable on their Cub only to find out that the guy before you built his own custom cable and now you have to reverse engineer what he did or replace both of them with approved parts so you don't get hung out to dry down the road you might feel differently. Maybe I am being an ass but I can assure you I have become a grumpy ass mechanic because of things like this. They tend to turn simple jobs into snowballs or worse. For instance how do you intend to test these cables that you are manufacturing?
    not very useful comment on here steve, please HELP PEOPLE HERE! as late you seem to just bash people WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO YOU??? probably need your moderator status taken away for a while!!!

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    [QUOTE=supercub;743442]
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    So you want to use a turn barrel on the rudder. You will need to use the Piper forks that cost about $50 each to fit the rudder bell crank without grinding material off of it. From the questions you have asked here in recent months I have come to the conclusion that you don't know what you are doing and also assume you have no certification to do it either. Sorry but these are my observations and opinions. Having worked on Cubs and Super Cubs rebuilt by people who didn't know what they were doing I have become kind of bias to such practice as have the owners when they recieved the bill. I can see you rebuilding your Cub under the supervision of a knowledgeable mechanic that could advice you to common procedures and practices but it doesn't appear to be the case here. If you ever had someone come inot your shop for you to replace a rudder cable on their Cub only to find out that the guy before you built his own custom cable and now you have to reverse engineer what he did or replace both of them with approved parts so you don't get hung out to dry down the road you might feel differently. Maybe I am being an ass but I can assure you I have become a grumpy ass mechanic because of things like this. They tend to turn simple jobs into snowballs or worse

    Amazing how a simple question can snowball out of effect. Sorry I ask questions, I thought that was kinda what these forums were about, to ask questions and share experiences. Do I know what I'm doing? I hope so. I ask questions sometimes to help confirm what I'm doing ( since it's been awhile since I worked on Cubs)........or just to get an answer, or to get others opinions on how to tackle something. I worked in a shop for several years under the supervision of an IA. I've rebuilt 5 cubs over the years, one of which took a "Best Craftsmanship Award" at the Arlington WA flying years ago, I have owned 4 different cubs and have been flying them for 50 years. Yes I have a knowledgeable mechanic overseeing my every move on my project, but sometimes it's easier to ask a question on here, and like I said, you get different inputs on ways of doing things.
    Not sure what I ever said or did to put a burr under your saddle, but I can again assure you I'm not out to screw anyone, and I won't belittle anyone when responding to a simple question. By the way, I'm converting a J-3 to a PA-11, with numerous STC's from Atlee Dodge and other sources. Have been in touch with the local FSDO informing them of my plans from day one of this project also.
    Now that you have finished editing your responce I will respond. No burr, I explained why I feel like I do. You never answered my question on how you intended to test your cables. You asked in another post where the rudder pedals should sit so you could get the length of the cables. Things like this make me go wow. The thing I like about Piper is that all of the drawings are available as well as the parts. I have a lot of drawings from the Cub Club as well as all of the Cub Clues. I can not imagine trying to rebuild one of these airplanes with the obvious lack of the original parts like it appears you are doing without the data available. I remember early on when I gave you grief for a question you ended up buying a parts manual. I guess I would rather do my due dilagence and gather the available data prior to asking what hardware and what length should I make my cables.
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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    PIPER DIDN'T USE them on ALL models.... some, you must use turn buckles if you want adjustment..... I do.... just because someone screwed up 70 or 80 years ago doesn't mean they are right!!... geesh.. relax little!!
    You are correct and if the original poster had looked at the parts manual he would realize that. I have never had an issue rigging rudder pedals on anything Piper built with the tabs at the rudder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair View Post
    not very useful comment on here steve, please HELP PEOPLE HERE! as late you seem to just bash people WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO YOU??? probably need your moderator status taken away for a while!!!
    Bash people? I felt like I stated my opinion and why I formed that opinion. Don't see where me being a moderator has a dam thing to do with my opinion. I moderate spammers and threads on the same subject. Have you seen me use my moderator privelages in an inappropriate manner? I'll have SJ give it to you and I'll do something more constructive
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    mike, we have a different FAA here in the lower 48. We have to cover our rear ends all the time. It is not uncommon for uncertificated people to do stuff on airplanes which is not according to Hoyle. When we have to place our names in the log book, all of the previously done stuff has to be in compliance. Steve has been there explaining his actions as have I. At every IA meeting the FAA places the fear of a higher being into us. The original poster has addressed something that is not in accordance with how Piper did it. Steve is just covering his rear prior to giving advise to a person of unknown qualifications. Other people who have neither an A&P nor an IA have no clue what people on the other side of the fence are responsible for. One of these is your customer so you are given a bit of slack in this.
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    Turn Barrell size?

    http://www.supercub.org/forum/showth...242#post695242

    https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2017...79487f2e14.jpg
    https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2017...8dcb8ad041.jpg
    “Rudder cable failed on takeoff, cut power & came down at a fairly steep descent, bashed the hell out of my face (and the airplane) on impact but survived alright after a night in hospital & some Frankenstein surgery.”

    http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/1...ident.html?m=1

    Univair tested cables sounds pretty good to me.


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    To follow on, making changes to primary controls are Major Alterations that require “Approved Data”. What approved data are you going to use to put turnbuckles in a system where the TC didn’t have them?


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    43.13-1B part 7.

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    [QUOTE=Steve Pierce;743468]
    Quote Originally Posted by supercub View Post

    Now that you have finished editing your responce I will respond. No burr, I explained why I feel like I do. You never answered my question on how you intended to test your cables. You asked in another post where the rudder pedals should sit so you could get the length of the cables. Things like this make me go wow. The thing I like about Piper is that all of the drawings are available as well as the parts. I have a lot of drawings from the Cub Club as well as all of the Cub Clues. I can not imagine trying to rebuild one of these airplanes with the obvious lack of the original parts like it appears you are doing without the data available. I remember early on when I gave you grief for a question you ended up buying a parts manual. I guess I would rather do my due dilagence and gather the available data prior to asking what hardware and what length should I make my cables.
    The reason I edited my post was, when I posted it, the first 1/2 for some reason didn't show, so had to go back and enter it. All the positive and constructive input on here is greatly appreciated.
    Yes, editing it again, because I just happened to look in the Piper Cub J-3 parts list and the exploded view shows turnbuckles used for the rudders........I guess that's why decided to use them.
    Last edited by supercub; 03-25-2019 at 10:35 AM.

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    Hey folks, I have received quite a number of interesting emails about this thread I think it's time to move on as I believe we understand everyone's perspective.

    Thanks.

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    One last little bit of information SJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by stewartb View Post
    43.13-1Bpart 7.

    7-146 to be exact.


    AC 43.13-1B7-146. Cable Proof Loads
    Cable terminals and splices should be tested for proper strength before installation. Gradually apply a test load equal to 60 percent of the cable- breaking strengths given in table 7-3 and table 7-4, for a period of 3 minutes. Place a suitable guard over the cable during the test to prevent injury to personnel in the event of cable failure.


    So the primary control cables in a rag and tube Pipers are 1/8” which minimum breaking strength of 2000 lbs. 60% of 2000 is 1200 lbs. When you proof load to 1200 lbs the the thimbles fold and the cable is useless therefore you not only need a device to put a 1200 lb. Load safely on a cable but you need a fixture to keep from squashing the thimbles.
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    supercub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    Hey folks, I have received quite a number of interesting emails about this thread I think it's time to move on as I believe we understand everyone's perspective.

    Thanks.

    sj

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    Thank You

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    Gordon Misch's Avatar
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    Assume a cable terminated with thimble and nicopress sleeve. If the sleeve compression is tested satisfactorily with a go / no-go gage, what is the likelihood of the sleeve slipping? Honest question - - -
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    Assume a cable terminated with thimble and nicopress sleeve. If the sleeve compression is tested satisfactorily with a go / no-go gage, what is the likelihood of the sleeve slipping? Honest question - - -
    It was always "a known"?? that a properly swaged sleeve is stronger than the cable is. Is that in writing anywhere? Years ago Bill Freeman at Freeman's Aviation in Griffin, GA would let you make your own cables and test them on his equipment if you bought the materials from him. I still make my own but use the gages and check for correct measurements
    Last edited by Southern Aero; 03-25-2019 at 08:09 PM.
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    I had my J-5 professionally rebuilt with all new cables by certified mechanics - unfortunately two different companies because the first one went bust before the aircraft was finished. I collected the aircraft after a four year wait, did a conversion with the local instructor and was taxiing out to depart when I needed to brake, quite hard. The next thing, the aircraft was on its nose and my nice new prop had marked the tarmac! I called myself a lot of unprintable names as I had flown a few hundred hours in my J-3 and PA-18 without coming close to nosing over, ever. Then I saw the rudder cable. It had pulled right out of the nicopress sleeve so my foot had shot forward taking the heel brake with it. I guess no-one had tested those cables to 1200 lbs! Sobering


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Misch View Post
    Assume a cable terminated with thimble and nicopress sleeve. If the sleeve compression is tested satisfactorily with a go / no-go gage, what is the likelihood of the sleeve slipping? Honest question - - -
    Swaging an in-line sleeve fitting on a cable end would be something I'd want to test but most of us use a nicopress and thimble to terminate the cables. That doesn't concern me at all.

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    Not knowing what turn barrels were, I just skipped this thread. I just skimmed to get the flavor. I bought my 1946 Cub in 1962, and it came with rudder turnbuckles. No note in the extensive logs about them having been added - I have always assumed they were supposed to be there. The aircraft had been covered twice, but interior, including seats, was original.

    Who knew? Not me . . .
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    "Swaging an in-line sleeve fitting on a cable end would be something I'd want to test but most of us use a nicopress and thimble to terminate the cables. That doesn't concern me at all. "

    Ditto. Use go/no go gauge and go......

    Jack
    Likes mike mcs repair, Southern Aero liked this post

  38. #38

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    Mar 2018
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    Why two sleeves in a row on your cables Stewart? Just curious.. no point trying to be made..
    I have always trusted one sleeve squeezed in the sequence defined by 43.13 as being stronger than the cable but have never tested it.
    How about Oliver with his big machines again? I sure liked his test of the Dyneema fiber!

  39. #39

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    Mar 2018
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    I think if you have a recently installed cable pull loose from rudder pressure while taxiing, then it probably was never squeezed in the first place. I've seen some pretty gawd-awful swedges on water-rudder cables that held with all the pilot could push..

  40. #40

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
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    Johannesburg, South Africa
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    Quote Originally Posted by 46 Cub View Post
    I think if you have a recently installed cable pull loose from rudder pressure while taxiing, then it probably was never squeezed in the first place. I've seen some pretty gawd-awful swedges on water-rudder cables that held with all the pilot could push..
    I am just grateful I had to brake - otherwise it would have failed at a critical stage of flight sometime! I have had the whole lot re-done...
    'There can be no liberty unless there is economic liberty".
    Margaret Thatcher

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